I am apprehensively, fingers crossed, salt over-my-shoulder, hopefully, crossing over to this forum from the Infidelity one. I have lurked here now for a couple of weeks and have read several of the threads. The progress that you all have made is amazing. The courage and grace all have shown is even more so.
I am 33, my H is 35. We have been married for 6 years, together for 8 and have a daughter aged 5.
H had an affair from Oct 2004. I found out Jan 3rd 2005. I think it ended Nov 2005 (but am not sure). H is still living with me.
In November, H was visiting the country where ow lives and I ended up asking him to decide what he wanted. I could not handle being in the situation any more. Ostensibly he chose to stay married and ended the affair. Later I found (deducted) out that ow told him that she had found someone else and unless he left me and married her, she would not stay with him.
H and I recently went to the U.S. for a conference where we both presented papers. Going together was Hs idea. Given that he also wanted to me to accompany him in July 2005 to his and ows country whilst he was in the middle of the affair and planning a trip with ow, I am not sure what to make of this. More about the trip later.
There are several issues I am dealing with and I feel that this may be the best forum for it.
What is love? Does H love me? Do I love H? I feel that H and I should stay together only if we love each other. I have seen written that love is a choice - I agree with this in a rational way and that is one of the reasons I am still here. The other is my daughter. Why am I asking this question? Well, I recently did partnership profiles for me and H and ow and H and whilst H and I have commitment, great communication etc between us, H and ow have a double Mars/venus connection that one person interpreted as a strong romantic connection, another as strong sexual attraction and a third as a dangerous obsession. I guess for me the issue is 'what if H and ow truly love each other and I am the one in the way?' 'What if H is only staying with me out of a sense of responsibility? This I could not bear. So how much weight does one store by these things? If love is a choice then does any of this matter?
The second issue is how can I change for the better. I have a clear vision of who I would like to be. I have come a long way but have a lot to do still. As the title of my thread says, I want to take complete responsibility for me and my happiness and this will ultimately take me to where I want to be.
Is staying with H the best thing for me and is staying with me the best thing for H? I think I can only answer the first part. The second part can and should only be answered by H. For me, this question can only be answered if the first one gets answered.
H has been putting in effort to make things work - the problem lies with me. I feel that my needs are not being met and this makes me resentful. I want H to give me WOA, physical reassurance and quality time. None of this happens without my initiation. This makes me really sad. I have spoken about this to H and he says, it will happen. Or he says, with ow it was all lies and he doesnt see the need for lies between us. Sometimes I feel it is hopeless and I should just give up and ask for a D. Other times, I feel that the A was an emotional one for H in which he had an emotional investment and I need to give him time to get over it.
As you can tell, I have very little clarity on what I want. Therefore, all I can do is continue to work on myself. I would appreciate your comments especially on what love means to you.
I see you being a person who puts a high value on respect, honoring of human dignity, trust... integrity. Core values we all know and crave. I see in your posts that you feel you are missing this from your H, and truly, by your descriptions, he does not and has not really offered you these things. <nod> I can understand the roads you've traveled, the decisions you've made, the regrets you have about those decisions (OM), and I certainly understand you wanting to hang on to your M.
But what I see in you, that I was never able to see in myself... is that you are NOT a person of respect, you are NOT a person of dignity, you are NOT a person of trust, nor are you a person of integrity.
Why do I say this?
Because these are not things you offer to another in trade for in-kind service. These things are not commodities of exchange, which you are treating them as right now.
Rather, they are the pilliars, the foundation of Who YOU Are, regardless of the actions or reponses of another person.
Righ now, you get angry because you feel your H is attempting to control you, or disrespect you by disregarding your wishes with your son (as an example). Your anger, then, allows for the dismantling of what you are willing to trade in-kind. Anger for respect. "You don't treat me respectfully, therefore, I am justified in feeling angry, hurt (whatever), and therefore, not necessarily acting respectful toward you either."
You give up control of Who You Are because of the actions or reactions of someone else. Yet you blame him for trying to control you... (isn't this a pisser? Much easier to blame the SOBs...) He is not taking control of you... you are giving it away... the moment he becomes disrespectful, you do as well. Why would you ever allow someone to change a core value that is fundamental to your being... when you never, ever, ever HAVE to?
A person who's foundation is made up of respect, trust, honor and integrity has no personal investment in how another behaves, and therefore, has no reason to become angry by their actions, regardless of what those actions may be. Here's your simple phrase:
BE, everyday, in every instance, that which you would like to receive from others. Yeah, I know, it's the Golden Rule, plagerized to hell and back... but maybe you can see new meaning in it. Truly feel its significance. It's not a trite phrase.
It is truly this simple. Honest to God.
When you are and act in a respectful, trusting, honoring manner, with integrity, your H's response to you is going to change. He will begin to mirror that which you offer and give to him everyday, without expectation of anything in return. For him to do otherwise, in any consistent fashion over time, will expose his own disrespectful behavior to HIMSELF. You won't have to do a darn thing... except remain consistent with who and what you are... not for him... but for yourself. Because these are the fundamental elements of your being. Period.
So. Think on this for a bit... and see if you can get what I am saying... and then I'd like to ask you... how might you approach your H now about the bedtime issue. How would you bring it up to him again, as a person of respect, trust, honor and integrity?
BTW... I was in court today for the close of my D. Buried my 16 year marriage. Not a route I'd recommend to many. But I can tell you... if YOU don't change at your root level... you are probably going to wind up there.
Why do you have to change, why not him? Well. You don't have to do anything. But if you WANT to be that person of respect, trust, honor, dignity and integrity, you'll do it and practice it until you become really, really good at it... simply because you want to, and it won't matter to you what your H does or doesn't do...
You cannot change the past no more than you can control the future. You can only control 'now.' How you choose to be and act 'now.' It does not take strength to change yourself or your life. It takes awareness. Be consciously aware of what you are doing, what you are choosing and why. If you mess up, learn from it, not beat yourself up about it. We all make mistakes. We're human. Beating yourself up about something is being a victim. Paying 'attention' to yourself, your choices, your actions... that is putting your hands on the steering wheel of your life. ... Well... you don't want to be there right now because it is sad and uncomfortable. Give yourself and your H a break. Rome wasn't built in a day... and you haven't even started yet on BEing Who You Are for any period of time. You have the PERFECT environment in which to practice being Who You Are... guarantee you, if you can get good at it, really become this person, where you are right now... if at some point you do end up divorced, you will have stopped a very self-destructive pattern.
Your anger is serving a purpose, yes. It justifies you not trying or making any effort over a period of time. It is self-defeating, self-destructive, and keeps you in a pool of helplessness and despair. Keeps you from being respectful, honest, dignified, etc. And it makes your H completely in control of the situation... which is actually a power play on your part. Because if you give him all the control, then you can't be to blame for being angry, for not trying... this is a very, very dangerous game to play. And believe me, I am speaking from experience. I am a PRO at power plays... stop competiting with your H. Control is an illusion. There is no power to grab. There is only what is as it is. Deal with it from the framework of Who You Are. ------------------------------------------------------------
For me, I am at a really uncertain place. I dont know what to expect from H or what will happen in our M. Therefore, I can only work on myself. A lot of what Corrie posted rings true for me as well. Regardless of how H acts or what he does, I want to make myself someone I can be proud of. In my earlier thread, I had written that I sometime cannot control my reactions to H and NY came right back with the response that if people cannot control themselves then, what is the difference between them and animals. This, simple as it appears, made me stop and really look at myself. I always had an excuse for my reactions and for the way I responded to H and what I saw, I didnt like.
Since then I have been much more in control of what I say and do, and you know what, it isn't so difficult. I want to be a person of trust, of integrity and of dignity and the only person stopping me from being that way is me.
Why am i focusing on changes in myself in the piecing forum? Because that is the only thing I can control or change that will serve to piece my M together. I think also there is the realisation that if I am not happy with who I am, then how can I expect my H to be happy with me and therefore how can I expect him to want to stay with me?
My goals for this week:
Be much more aware of my actions and reactions. Think before I react. If I get angry about something, ask myself how a person of integrity would react.
I am going to limit my goals for the weekend to these three.
I think I will start small.
I will also process other bits from Corrie's post later in the thread.
I agree - Love is a choice! In the beginning, we fall in love, that romantic, idealistic, rose-glassed type of love. Then, after a couple of years, we get to a point, where we need to choose to love in a different way. A more lasting, deep, unconditional way. And, this is where the WAS gets lost, especially in the marriages of many years. They forget why they married you, had a family, and made plans for the future. Call it MLC, or whatever, they become selfish, self-absorbed, needy, have affairs, and are very confused. It is up to us LBS to figure it out, to be strong, and patient, and to keep up the unconditional love. Believe me, it is really, really difficult. Trust becomes a thing of the past, and has to be rebuilt. And, anger has a rightful place when one has been betrayed. As long as one doesn't hold on to it forever. Forgiveness must eventually be given.
Anyway, that's the path I took - so far. And, that's my take on love, for what it's worth. I also feel that we are with the people we are married to, because that was meant to be. You don't just make a vow to someone you aren't deeply in love with. At least, I don't.
I also agree that we can only control ourselves. We can influence others, but ultimately, we cannot control the choices or actions of others. So, we try and do the best we can, by being true to ourselves, being our own best friend, and being a whole person, so that, if we do end up alone, then that is okay. I have found being detached from H's fantasy, selfishness, and lying, ultimately was what kept me sane. And, I think, won him back.
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Quote: And, this is where the WAS gets lost, especially in the marriages of many years. They forget why they married you, had a family, and made plans for the future. Call it MLC, or whatever, they become selfish, self-absorbed, needy, have affairs, and are very confused. It is up to us LBS to figure it out, to be strong, and patient
I agree with all of this. It's just that although I know that I am doing the right thing by trying to save the M; when I see indifference in Hs eyes, I feel like dirt. Sometimes I wonder that if the love dies, does it ever come back? What if he constantly measures me upto ow and finds me wanting?
Quote: anger has a rightful place when one has been betrayed. As long as one doesn't hold on to it forever. Forgiveness must eventually be given.
I am trying really hard. Sometimes I can almost manage it, then something reminds me and off I go again, holding the grudge.
Quote: I have found being detached from H's fantasy, selfishness, and lying, ultimately was what kept me sane. And, I think, won him back.
Wow, it's great that you won him back.
Journalling:
After all my great intentions on Friday, I blew it small time on Saturday and big time on Sunday. I find myself reacting to Hs actions all the time. I need to learn to detach from H. I think the one thing I should probable accept is that although H has broken (may have?) off from ow, he has not yet re-committed to me nor does he feel he loves me. So I should not accept that he can be any kind of a husband to me or accept him to behave like a husband.
I need to control my expectations off him and learn how to establish my boundaries in a firm, loving way. Okay, today is another day!
My goal for today (as for the weekend):
Be much more aware of my actions and reactions. Think before I react. If I get angry about something, ask myself how a person of integrity would react.
I'll report tomorrow how I did. If I take this one day at a time, I am sure I can do it.
Quote: And, this is where the WAS gets lost, especially in the marriages of many years. They forget why they married you, had a family, and made plans for the future. Call it MLC, or whatever, they become selfish, self-absorbed, needy, have affairs, and are very confused. It is up to us LBS to figure it out, to be strong, and patient
I agree with all of this. It's just that although I know that I am doing the right thing by trying to save the M; when I see indifference in Hs eyes, I feel like dirt. Sometimes I wonder that if the love dies, does it ever come back? What if he constantly measures me upto ow and finds me wanting?
Quote: anger has a rightful place when one has been betrayed. As long as one doesn't hold on to it forever. Forgiveness must eventually be given.
I am trying really hard. Sometimes I can almost manage it, then something reminds me and off I go again, holding the grudge.
Quote: I have found being detached from H's fantasy, selfishness, and lying, ultimately was what kept me sane. And, I think, won him back.
Wow, it's great that you won him back.
Journalling:
After all my great intentions on Friday, I blew it small time on Saturday and big time on Sunday. I find myself reacting to Hs actions all the time. I need to learn to detach from H. I think the one thing I should probable accept is that although H has broken (may have?) off from ow, he has not yet re-committed to me nor does he feel he loves me. So I should not accept that he can be any kind of a husband to me or accept him to behave like a husband.
I need to control my expectations off him and learn how to establish my boundaries in a firm, loving way. Okay, today is another day!
My goal for today (as for the weekend):
Be much more aware of my actions and reactions. Think before I react. If I get angry about something, ask myself how a person of integrity would react.
I'll report tomorrow how I did. If I take this one day at a time, I am sure I can do it.
Forget the OW! I obsessed about my H's OW, and really, it was a waste of time. Work on yourself - find the person you were when your H first fell in love with you. That's what I did, and still doing. It's a journey of rediscovering yourself, and being okay with whatever happens in your M.
Ultimately, work toward it being okay whether he leaves or stays. Sad, if he leaves, but life goes on, and sometimes is better for the lessons learned.
I won my H back, yes, but he still has a lot of work to be done on himself. But, that's another story.
Detachment, is definitely the way to go. It took me a long time to learn and to do, but once I got to that point, I was much happier, and more at peace with whatever decision he made, and I was also stronger knowing that I may or may not want him back. And, there's the crunch!
Yeah, and have no expectations of anyone or anything (except yourself) - that way, you are never disappointed.
I like your goals, and I agree that one should always take it one day at time. Small steps.
Will be checking back in!
Me:57 H:52 M:28 Got another lawyer last year and filed. D35,S/D twins28,D22 EA4/04 End? Who knows? "Life is like a mirror. Smile at it and it smiles back at you." — Peace Pilgrim
Quote: Forget the OW! I obsessed about my H's OW, and really, it was a waste of time.
You noticed my obsession, huh?
Yeah, you're right. It's just that if H is having an A, I DONT want the M. I dont know how to get it through to him. H sees nothing wrong with continuing the A and keeping the M in the terrible state that it is. I dont want a three person M. I am happy to be on my own in this case.
Journalling:
Am I the most hateful person on this earth? Why cant I keep my mouth shut?
I nagged yesterday - and was not a person of integrity at all. Yes, previously I could say H wound me up BUT not this time. I should have control over myself.
Well, I realised after the fact and apologised. H: you always do it and then feel sorry. I am not going to accept this all your life. Me: that is your choice. I also will not accept being treated like a servant all my life. H: that is your choice. Me: you are right, that is my choice.
A while later I went to bed. I woke up and found H had his arm on me. Today H got up in a really good mood. Whilst we were brushing our teeth H said: 'you cant blame others for what is wrong with your life. you've got to make it what you want. these are your words. I wish i could stop them buzzing in my head'.
From this, I gather that maybe H is finally tired of my shouting and nagging and has decided that he will now be with ow and be happy ( BeingMe, sorry about the obsession). Except that he kept hitting me on my bottom which he used to do all the time before the A. I cant really guess what is in his mind. All I know is that in this way neither he nor I am happy.
However, I cannot focus on any of this, can I?
So my goals for the day are, once again:
Be much more aware of my actions and reactions. Think before I react. If I get angry about something, ask myself how a person of integrity would react
If tomorrow, I have to come and say that I failed yet again, I will be really upset with myself.
