I have had several people asking about my sitch, so I decided to post some of my dilemmas as I always have gotten good advice here. This board has become a great support system!
My wife and I have been married for almost 8 years now and for the past 5, my wife has been a ND spouse, whereas I am a very HD husband! In every other aspect of our relationship, things are great! We are best friends on so many fronts. My favorite thing to do each day is to go home and talk to my wife. She is a wonderful girl and a great mom to our 3 kids. I would never want to give that up.
But the one issue that really gets us going is that of intimacy. The arguments we have only seem to go in circles with neither of us getting anywhere. That is because for everything that I bring up as to why we need to have intimacy in marriage, she can take it and turn it against me to make her own point. We both cancel each other's points out. Let me illustrate..
Here is our main argument that has been rehashed over the years constantly
MY POINT: (I'm talking to her, here..) Honey, I love you very much but I really feel we need to have regular intimacy in our relationship. This is something that is very important to me. When we don't have this, I take it personally. I show my love in physical ways and I gauge the quality of our relationship on how much I can show love physically. I need touch. I crave touch. I want to touch you, experience you and bond with you. This is very important to me. I want to be a good husband. I want to be a guy you can trust and admire and desire. If you need anything, please let me know. You are first on my priority list, so if you ever need something, please let me know. Even if I am not in the mood, I will do it as it's not about me, it's about taking care of what is important to you. I never want you to leave home feeling unfulfilled or needing in any aspect of your life. When I know that you are happy, I can be happy.
HER POINT: (Coming back at me..) Honey, I love you too, but you need to understand that I have absolutely no desire to have any kind of intimacy. I don't like it. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Even though you don't think so and see me from the inside, I feel like I am grossly overweight and mentally knowing that you can see me undressed is a giant mental turnoff. Having intimacy also reminds me of past experiences that I just don't want to go through again. It's not fun. It's not closeness. Its not bonding. It's pure torture from my end. You said you loved me and would do anything for me, even if you are not in the mood. What I need from you is to step away from intimacy completely. Do not ask for it. Do not talk about it. Do not bring it up and do not initiate it! That is what I need right now, and if you really love me as you say you do, you will respect that. Life is not about having constant sex and being close. Life is about learning to control your urges, gaining control of self so that all that physical stuff is no longer important. Please respect me and stop all these requests for closeness. If you love me, you'll do whatever it takes to make this happen. And if you do not, then you are breaking our vows, promises made to each other and to God.
So, I say I need intimacy to feel close, my wife says that is just my overactive hormones talking and I need to gain self control. I have expressed a need to her and in the end only feel guilty for bringing it up and am made to feel like I am a deviant for doing it. Anything that I can bring up.. just gets flopped back at me making me feel like a bad person for asking for what I see are the basics. There is no winning in this kind of situation. There is no way to communicate and make a point or get her attention.
Sooo.. In my opinion, in marriage if each person has the philosophy of putting their spouses needs above their own and taking care of the other first, then these issues should work themselves out. I would respect that my wife needs space and provide that to her. But she would recognize that my happiness is dependent on being physical with her, so she would make sure to take care of me in that department. We BOTH put each others needs first.
But in my scenario, we are in a lose lose situation. If my needs are being met, then, according to my wife, she would be miserable as intimacy does that to her. But in order to meet her needs, I must be miserable. So who meets whose needs? Who takes the sword. Well, it's always been me.
But what this has done is started up the typical business world supply and demand. Supply is waaaay low, thus creating HUGE demand! The longer we go, the more I want the intimate parts of our life to return. They used to be there.. why can't they come back? I keep trying to explain that the best way to curb that demand... is to bring back the supply.. But that doesn't go over well. Again.. I just get accused of being that sex loving, fantasy land living pervert again..
Here is another issue... In my mind married couples get used to seeing their spouse undressed. Seeing a member of the opposite sex undressed in an early relationship is a thrill, but after seeing them like that over the years, it becomes less exciting. My wife, can NEVER be around me in any kind of undressed stage. I cannot go near her if she is showering, dressing etc. Not in the same room, nothing.. she has gotten to the point lately, where she will not even get dressed if I am in the HOUSE. On weekends she'll make up errands and then shower while I am gone.. I don't know what I did to make her start that kind of a move.. I always try to respect her space... But what that does is again, create desire. I never get to see her, so when I DO see something, it gets me going... my body has a very physical reaction, if you catch my drift... I am still like that 15 year old trying to catch a peek at the nekkid ladies. I don't like that I am like that, but I haven't had that period of getting used to it, so that it is not a big deal anymore.. I don't look at porn.. I don't even watch R rated movies. I consider myself "allowed" to look at only one woman according to my marriage vows, and that is my wife.. and she wont allow it.
Yet another issue.. I am not allowed to touch my wife, nor be touched by her. Here is her reasoning on that one.. Dr. Laura (don't flame me for bringing up the name) said in a book something to the effect of "give a guy a steak and expect him to nibble?!" in regards to woman complaining that men get touched an want it to go farther. In my wife's mind (and as my weakness has proved over the years) if my wife touches me, in any way.. or even curls up to me on the couch.. she knows I will want more. She knows I will want it taken to the next level, and so since she is not comfortable with that, she will not touch anywhere, ever. So no hugs, no kisses.. nothing... Even sitting close on the couch she says "I know you are just sitting there thinking about sex and I am not comfortable with you thinking about that" so she removes any opportunity for that. And for similar reasons, I can't touch her.. touching her will be a turn on and she doesn't want to do anything that could purposefully put me in the mood, so she doesn't allow it. If I want to really make her mad, I can just curl up to her when getting into bed at night... But if I want to live in a peaceful house, and keep her in bed with me.. I have learned NOT to do that!
One more issue, then I'll shut up... that is my wife's health.. She is ALWAYS sick. Always has a sore back (blamed on her weight) always has a migraine (she eats Excedrin Migraine like they are M&M's) always has the stomach flu, etc. I just don't get it... she sleeps 11 hours every night, and if she doesn't get that sleep... look out!!! (Also a source of resentment.. she gets 11 hours of sleep, I get 7 if I am lucky, yet if I ask her to stay up 30 extra minutes one night so we can spend some time together and that is a terrible thing to ask!!! She's TIRED!!!! Won't even give me 30 minutes..., yeah I feel important!). She's been to lots of doctors.. they done lots of tests, no one has found anything wrong with her. They all say she is perfectly healthy. I think it is all mental, but that is a subject I know to stay clear of!!
And so we continue to exist together. Most days, are actually very pleasant. She and I get along about everything else. I just know not to bring up anything relating to sex or intimacy. I know not to even mention it. I just keep my mouth shut and focus on living a life of celibacy... I have tried to rock the boat a few times.. Tried to get us into counseling (she refuses to go.. says she'd end the marriage before seeing a counselor), tried to talk out the issues, heck, had a semi-affair simply to get her attention that I wasn't happy. didn't do any good.
But again, this is ONLY on the sex related issues. So could I, in my right mind, end a marriage, leave my friend and lose access to my kids, all because of different libido and views on sex? I don't think I could do that.. so my only choice is to stick it out... repress my sexual side.. and try not to let this destroy me inside.
Your wife said that. "Life is about learning to control your urges, gaining control of self so that all that physical stuff is no longer important. Please respect me and stop all these requests for closeness. If you love me, you'll do whatever it takes to make this happen. And if you do not, then you are breaking our vows, promises made to each other and to God."
From what I"ve seen from your other posts I think you guys are perhaps "religious" (for lack of a better term) or moral people. If you are church going folk...then what your wife said about you'll do what she is requesting as that was your "promise to God"...(above).
I Cor. 7:5...says that married people should not withhold sex from each other..except if BOTH people consent to it..and it should be for a certain specific period of time only...but that you need to come back together again becuase if you don't you'll be tempted to have an affair. In vs. 3 & 4 it says that in marriage neither of us has the power over our bodies...that our bodies belong to each other and we need to give to each other what that person needs.
Your need is RIGHT and legitimate.
Regarding how long she sleeps and physical issues. Maybe she is a bit overweight...anyway, several books I've read...what you eat can make you sleepy, stress can give you headaches (3 kids in 8 years), being overweight can make you sleepy as well as stress.
Her weight and what she eats can affect her back, her sleep, and her moods (stress; depression). It's amazing what effect a diet change can have on everything. All kinds of info. on this. Good carbs are great...but white flour carbs...create HUGE problems...all of which many people suffer from and what most of America eats!
I don't know what intimacy or sex would bring up that is painful to her. Abuse? or? These are issues that need to be dealt with. Major issues!
For a couple NOT to have sex is not what is intended in marriage. Unless both don't need sex.
Gotta go to a ball game...all the best! Don't give up...but don't give in!
I would look at her thyroid, sounds exactly like the health problems that my wife had. Her doctor told her she was 'normal' on the thyroid test but when we took her to and endocrinologist who treated the systems not the test results the change was dramatic. See some of my threads on thyroid plus read the literature about how to interprate the standard thyroid tests.
My wife was mad at me for making her go to the doctor, later she was mad that I hadn't pushed her to go sooner!!!
I wish I had something useful to offer, but unfortunately I don't at the moment as my situation is very similar to yours. A lot of the things that you described sound extremely familiar. The only real difference is that my wife hasn't come right out and said that she has absolutely no interest in sex, but she might has well have as she acts very much like your wife. I just wanted to let you know that you're not alone and that the two of us should probably keep an eye on each other's threads due to the similarity of our situations.
HG: damndamndamndamn.... Can I say I feel your pain? Several of your points strike a chord: Since "some" touching makes you want "more" touching, she ordains from on high that there shall be "NO" touching.
"Life is not about having constant sex and being close." No, but marriage ought to be about being close, and, just to clear this up, honey, I'm not asking for "constant" sex.
"Life is about learning to control your urges, gaining control of self so that all that physical stuff is no longer important." Oh really? Says who? Perhaps the Stoics, perhaps the Puritans, but not me. And if this is what you thought Life was all about, you might have tried to clue me in on that before I made a promise to spend my life with you, forsaking all others.
"breaking our vows..." Here, I echo what nicegal said about the Bible. My W once said something like this to me, so I went right to our copy of our vows, which we had cobbled together ourselves from various sources, and found a passage like, "I will honor you with my body." (Did I mention I was a lawyer?) Of course, she responded that the passage had more to do with NOT ML with someone OTHER than our spouse, and did not represent a promise TO make love with our spouse. Go figure.
I'm obviously venting here, but let me share some ideas with you, my large friend. You're not asking her for the physical aspect of the relationship to be entirely your way, but she definitely is.
Your feeling that you need "intimacy to feel close" is natural, normal, understandable, even healthy. It's a feeling shared by a great majority of healthy males, and many healthy females. It is not "overactive hormones" (although hormones do have something to do with it), and for her to characterize it that way is incredibly disrespectful of your feelings. Don't buy into this. Do you treat her feelings or physical urges with the same disrespect? (I sure hope not...I'm sure you don't). Your feelings deserve respectful consideration. If she refuses to give that to you, then you need to walk away -- from the conversation, not the marriage. You need to let her know that you will not take her disrespect, that you will leave the room/house/whatever, if she pulls it again. And you need to follow through with that. Because, if you sit there and take it, and then feel guilty for bringing up the physical issue again, you're just buying into her world view, her view of you as a sex maniac who needs to be castrated, her view that marriage is about not being close and controlling our immoral urges, etc.
With regard to her health -- you can lead a horse to water -- you can ask her to go to the doctor, to go on a diet, etc., but you can't make her do anything she doesn't want to do. If she's anything like my W, the more you push, the deeper her heels go in.
With regard to counseling, I was shaking my head at this: "says she'd end the marriage before seeing a counselor." And you're upset about ending the marriage because she's cut you off, physically? HG, you have your work cut out for you. I suggest you make an appointment with a MC, tell her about it, and if she doesn't want to go, go by yourself. You need someone to talk to about this besides (or, in addition to) us here on the SSM board.
Sounds to me like her body issues go beyond just the "oh, I'm fat, why would you want to ML with me?" Sounds like she's been abused and has never dealt with it.
My heart goes out to you, HG. You definitely have your work cut out for you.
Quote: Life is about learning to control your urges, gaining control of self so that all that physical stuff is no longer important." Oh really? Says who? Perhaps the Stoics
The Stoics have been sadly misinterpreted by our society since this is what we believe they said. Actually, based on my recent reading, I would say NOPkins is the closest thing to a Stoic philosopher on the BB. The Stoics believed that you should be able to calm your anxiety when faced with a situation in which you have bad alternatives by accepting that bad things can and will happen but believing that you have the internal resources to deal with these bad events. Thus, if you are a Stoic you are able to honestly confront your spouse about your unhappiness with your sex life because although you know this may lead to some bad events, you have the emotional resources to cope with these bad events. A Stoic is free to act because a Stoic tells himself that he can deal with the worst case scenario of having dishes thrown at him, watching his wife stalk out the door, living in a shoddy bachelor apartment on a reduced income, missing having the kids around except on the weekend etc..
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Okay, well, ya know what I meant. Maybe I meant the Ascetics or something...the people who completely give up/deny their base urges.
One more thing that occurred to me. HG, if you did end up getting a D, what do you mean by "lose access to my kids"?
If you mean that you won't see them every day, as you do now, you're right. But you'll still see them during your custody time. I know I'm jumping the gun here, but I guess I just wanted to know what preconceived notions you might have about divorced dads. I have custody of my kids from my first marriage for approximately 45 percent of the week. Not bad, considering that the big question I asked myself before divorcing was "can I be a better parent to them without her?" Given her NPD, drug and alcohol abuse, etc., the answer was yes. And I don't regret the decision.
Quote: Okay, well, ya know what I meant. Maybe I meant the Ascetics or something...the people who completely give up/deny their base urges.
Yeah, I know what you mean. That's the beauty of philosophy, we can all dig up one that will suit our purposes. That is why HappyGiant is having a circular argument. He and his wife obviously have different philosophies of sex. One thing I admire about your wife is her ability to cobble together a homemade philosophy that suits her purposes from bits and pieces of 1960's Feminism and ancient Buddhist beliefs.
Happy Giant- Your wife has some bad anxiety issues regarding her weight/body image. Your common sense reaction to this would be to try and reassure her. However, this might be counter-productive because by reassuring her that her appearance doesn't matter by telling her that she looks beautiful to you, you are reinforcing her belief that her physical appearance is important in terms sexuality but just trying to convince her that she is wrong in her opinion about how attractive she really is. So, maybe you should accept her premise that she is unattractive and have a convo along the lines of:
HG: So you don't want to have sex because you believe you are unattractive.
W: That's right.
HG: Do you know any women who are less attractive than you?
W: Yes, of course.
HG: Do you think that these women don't have the right to enjoy sex because they are unattractive? Do you believe they should punish themselves by denying themselves sex until they have successfully lost 10,20,50 lbs. or gotten a nose job or had their wrinkles ironed out etc.
W: No, they have the right to enjoy sex. Besides, most women are attractive in their own special way.
HG: So, other unattractive women have the right to enjoy sex, but you don't? and other women who might be considered unattractive by conventional standards are attractive in their own special way and especially to those who love them, but you aren't?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I don't think she is sexually LD because she is overweight. I think she is overweight to support/justify her sexually LD position. Just one more wall to block sexual advances.
Your situation is very closely describe by Schnarch. Go revisit the first 5 chapters. Your problem is one of enmeshment, what Schnarch calls fusion. Your wife’s sense of self is dependent on your view of her and vice versa. So each of you argues the details in order to make the other person reflect back to you how you would like to see yourself.
This is what Corri has long been preaching. Break this dependency on each other. Differentiate, as Schnarch puts it. To me your wife acts like she has some serious sexual molestation in her past that makes your enmeshment worse.
“Expecting trust, validation, and shared reality only encourages fights about “what really happened.” If you and your partner are constantly fighting about “reality,” you’re probably dependent on other-validated intimacy and you’re really arguing about whose reality will become the dominant reality and whose anxieties will prevail.” (Schnarch p.108)
This something I am trying to work through as well.
Yeah, I know what you mean. That's the beauty of philosophy, we can all dig up one that will suit our purposes. That is why HappyGiant is having a circular argument. He and his wife obviously have different philosophies of sex. One thing I admire about your wife is her ability to cobble together a homemade philosophy that suits her purposes from bits and pieces of 1960's Feminism and ancient Buddhist beliefs.