Hi, I've been off the board for awhile, not because things have improved but because I couldn't keep dwelling on all of the heartbreak here. My H has been having an affair since last September. He swears that it is over but I know that it is not. (Found a receipt in his car over the weekend for a Hallmark card and a mobil phone card (obviously, he figured out I can check is cell phone so he must have a prepaid phone hidden at work). We have talked about divorce and he states he does not want one. Says his kids mean everything to him, can't we just continue living as friends. He does not want to try to work on or fix our relationship. Well, the only reason I would think that he doesn't want to do that is because he is in love with someone else. I know that I can live without hugs, kisses or intimacy because I have been doing it now for over 5 months, even though it really sucks, and I haven't rolled over and died from it yet. The DR book states affairs usually last around 6 months although I can't see it ending since they work together and are therefore with eachother everyday.
My question is, can anyone give some advice on how I can convince this man that he is detroying his family (we have 3 small children) and how to get him to realize that he needs to work on his marriage
Hi, you guys have been so helpful to me in the past. I just feel so stuck. I don't want my life to be on hold, waiting for my H to decide that he wants to work on our relationship. I have many times lost hope and patience and asked him to move out. He does not want to, not because of me, but because "he loves his kids" and the fact that he can't afford to move out. I tried to explain to him that love is a decision, if he decided that he really did love me he could act on those feelings and things could improve. But he is not there yet. I try not to dwell on the OW but it is so hard, I HATE her! She has ruined my life! Grasshopper, I know that you too are still living with your wife while she continues an affair. How the heck are you handling it? Or anyone else out there in a similar situation, please advise. Thanks.
Yes, I am living through a situation VERY similar to yours for about 3 months now. My W too acts like the A is over but unlike your H, she has not actually said the words. You should catch up on PArob's thread because I think his may be a closer match for yours. Mine is close enough though to compare and for me to empathize with you totally. It's hard, especially when they are so clearly doing it for the kids. My W has not come out and said that's why she sticks around, but it seems clear from some of the things she HAS said, that they play a huge role in her being confused and unsure of what she wants.
Let's put it this way, if we had no kids, she would have been gone long ago...well, if we had no kids, maybe...well, you know where I am going with that...
Look, right now, I am at a low point. I have not posted much to that effect, but I am. My lows are MUCH shallower now than a month, or even weeks ago so I just cope. That's the thing, we learn to cope with things that most people can't even fathom. Is that the right thing to do? I truly don't know sometimes. Michelle says it is. Well, she says we need to grow as people to the point where we are not ruled by the hurtful actions of our spouses. I suppose that's the goal that keeps me going. I figure so long as I am still able to grow and improve despite all the negative crap in my marriage right now, then I can continue living with my W and waiting. When the time comes when we stop growing, or have just had enough, then maybe it's time to try something else. I am not there yet and neither are you I suspect. Also, the idea of this being a process of building strength and NOT displaying weakness is important to me. I guess you could say I think of our sitch's as weights to be used to grow our self-esteem and general life skills muscles. Each time we deal with one of the mini-crisis or the overall issues in our M's, we flex and grow some part of us. I think when we stop flexing and just sit back, waiting for the next thing to happen, in effect, becoming relationship couch potatos, we atrophy, regress and ultimatly fail in attaining our personal goal of growth.
Sorry to go all philosophical on you. I wish I had the gift of dircet advice that OT and NYS have. For me, the best I can do is share my feelings and hope they help you somehow.
I think we will both find the way to our own happiness sometime in the near future. It's only when we truly make that a priority that it will happen. For me, the kids also play a role in that, as I'm sure they do for you too. My kids are NOT the reason I want to make my marriage work, but they are a source of strength and resolve I use to continue the fight. If ever I realized that they were the only reason to fight, I would stop because a life without love between their mother and I would not be a positive one for them I think.
This is all so hard, and please, don't fault yourself for not being able to endure it in your own situation, let alone relive it via all of ours. Like I just told NYS in an email, it DOES get trying to read all the misery and gratitude should be paid to those that stick around AFTER their stich is in a different phase to help us get through it. So, post, read, lurk, whatever. I just hope I/we can be of help to you as you have been to me in the past.
Boy, I really sympathize with you. Firstly, you cannot "convince" your H of anything. He has to reach his own conclusions. I'm sorry if that's not what you want to hear. There is no magic formula, what works for one couple may in fact backfire for another. And why would you want to try and convince him anyway? Wouldn't it be more desirable and honest if he came to that conclusion on his own? There's no way I would want a man with me if he feels he's being "forced" into it.
Please stop pursuing him. You are only pushing him away further. Stop it. Immediately. As hard it is, try your best to ignore the OW's presence. She is not the reason your M is in trouble. She may add to the confusion right now, but the problems were there before she came into the picture.
You need to figure out what those problems were. Don't do this by asking your H. Back off from him. Make a list of what the problems were. Post them here if you want - others can help come up with creative ideas and solutions.
GAL - do you work? If not, is that something you could do? How old are the kids? I know that I'm going thru something similar, my kids are 7, 3 and 18 mos - I don't like the idea of them being in daycare, yet I think on a part-time basis it would actually be more beneficial to them than being trapped in the house all day with their crazy momma! LOL
You need to get back your self-confidence and self-esteem. They will go a long way in helping you get stronger and able to deal with things better. Re-invent yourself. Do what YOU need to do to make yourself happy. As you find yourself getting strength and getting more comfortable with a "new" YOU, your H may come back around. But until HE decides that's what he wants, work on YOU.
Here's a trick I've been using lately to help me improve my mood. I think of my SO as someone I want to date. I've listed the things about him that I like. I think back to the early days when things were fun, carefree, lighthearted. I do whatever I can to maintain that air of easygoing"ness" (LOL- new word) and happy fun times. When he says something that perhaps I don't agree with, I think about something from the past that he has said that's made me happy - I swear, I've smiled at him when he's said something that I think he's saying just to get me going. When I smile at him - it probably completely throws HIM off track. LOL I ignore our history (the bad parts) and focus on the positive. If anything, it makes them curious.
Quote: Here's a trick I've been using lately to help me improve my mood. I think of my SO as someone I want to date.
I do this too. It helps remove the expectations you may have. I really helps me get back to the point where I just did things for my W because I knew SHE would appreciate it or more importantly, because I WANTED TO and not because I thought I would get something out of it. Of course, I don't want to go around doing things just because I think SHE'LL like it because that is opposite of DB, GAL and detachment, but WHEN I do something for her, I can do it out of my independant love and not because I expect it to result in something else. Does that make sense? I am choosing what to do based on my expression of love/whatever NOT because my W expects me to do it, or I expect her to react a certain way. It gives me a sense that I am making decisions and not reacting. Hope that helps.
GH and NM, Thank you both for responding to me. GH I too am sorry to see you still here. I personally feel you have grown so much since your first post where you were lost and confused. You now have knowledge and purpose and are truely an inspiration to me.
NM, thanks for the tough love. I have reread DR so many times that pages are falling out. I know everything that I need to do it is just hard for me to actually do it. I guess it is my wounded ego. How can this happen to me? My ex-H was the great american playboy, fooled around with tons of people behind my back. One I the reasons I married my current H is that I was sure he would never do something like that to me. Oh well...... Anyway, she is not the problem just part of it. I am thinking of it as a competition - she is obvioulsly very happy when she is around him so I am trying to be even happier. Actually, I try not to think of her and him at all cause that is when I really get into a funk. I do not work outside of our home (although I babysit for extra $) but I think if I were to get a job, even 1 night a week it would do so much for my self-esteem. I need to feel good about myself. I have lost over 20 lbs. on this "DB Diet" and for the first time in years feel good about my body. Too bad I have no one to share it with - enough of the pity party... I will now go find PArob's tread as GH suggested and look for some guidance. Thanks all for the support!
LOL - I like to call it the Cheater's Diet - all you eat is bullshit and lies for months & months! And, you never retain water because you're always crying! Bad joke, I know.
But seriously, it took Oldtimer to point out to me that I was like a dog begging for scraps of a Relationship with my SO. That thought simply disgusted me enough to change myself immediately. No more pity parties for me. (Or at least not as often or as long!!! ).
IMO, it's pride that is the biggest roadblock in our DB efforts. We have to let that pride go. It's the hardest thing for me to do, as well.
I have some other links that I want to post, although I'm having difficulties with the search on here. So, I'll post them as soon as I find them. I've printed them out and they cotnain some excellent advice and put things into words better than I ever can!
This letter is posted in Another Divorce Busted Forum but it contains so much good advice that I'd thought I'd post it here as well. Savor every word. *************** Dear Michele, This thank you letter is a long time coming. First of all, I'd like to say that not all marriages can be saved. The reason I say this is because some of the posters place a great deal of pressure on themselves for being "failures" in the contest of saving the marriage. Although one person can make huge strides to change the dynamics of the relationship, (and I'm living proof of it) if the walk away partner is completely dead set against reconciling, it sometimes doesn't happen. I believe that the best strategy one can possibly have is Divorce Busting, but even then when implementing the techniques carefully, it might not succeed. I know some of the posters have become a bit discouraged that they didn't win, but I have also seen those same posters develop into much more well-developed characters, so I guess it really depends on how you define win. If it means you can hold your head up high and be a confidant, functioning, loving adult, in spite of losing your marriage, then you have won.
That being said, I think DB is about the only way you have a hope of saving your marriage, especially in the state that most of them seem to be in once the walked-from spouse gets to this website. I know for a fact that if I hadn't used the techniques (which by the way did as much to my head as it did to my h's) described in your book, I would most likely be in the divorce courts by now. In addition to your book, and the KLA tapes, which are fantastic once a bit of headway has been made with the walk-away spouse. The other thing that was an absolute lifesaver during my most defeated moments was the bb and the wonderful community of caring people you have attracted. There's something inherently positive about a group of people who will talk to strangers about their hopes of restoring their marriages; might I say that in this age of negativity and apathy about the state of the marital union, it is uplifting to say the least. On the other hand, I would also caution newcomers to visit the bb only once a day, and spend more time reading your book. Especially around holidays, the mood is often one of being down. This is understandable, but it's also contagious. Stick with people who have positive concrete suggestions. I tended to ask a lot of why questions and while it satisfied my analytical urges, it was sometimes detrimental to getting my marriage back on track. However, the chance to explore the whys and wherefores was a welcome one, and certainly less harmful here than if I had analyzed to my h, my family, or my poor beleaguered friends (who after a while got a bit sick of hearing about the whole thing).
My h never left home, but continued to pour his teenage-like rebellion and angst on me. I suffered the Bomb and being told I was not loved, possibly never was, was incompatible, we were incapable of communicating, and that there was just no passion, no mutual interests, and on and on. I was told that he had never been committed, didn't look forward to coming home from business trips (no wonder, since OW was usually on them with him!). I was told by my h that he was in love with someone else, that she was his soulmate, I even found letters he'd written her, but he swore that it wasn't a PA. The mistrust and suspicions that I went through can be imagined very well by most here on the bb, especially since he traveled with her. I have never fully established whether it was an intense EA or a PA. There were also other infidelities, internet relationships, two of whom he met in person, and a few other women that he worked with and got close to. He still swears that these were never physical. I guess the reason I am saying this is that finally I am over anguishing over whether they ever got physical. The fact of the matter is, my h was not committed to the marriage, and was in fact, just looking for the right moment to jump ship. In spite of all his protestations and such, he never left home. On the bb, there are frequently discussions as to whether it's better to have them leave or stay. This is always a question best left answered by the individual. All I can say was it was hell at times and I desperately wanted him out, but at the same token I also was able to appreciate that he was going through hell (though not always at the time was I so sympathetic). I now have been able to scrounge up a bit of respect for the fact that he struggled with what he was going through and didn't want to leave because of the family. So perhaps in the respect I was lucky.
Now as to techniques. And first of all, let me clear up a misunderstanding; many people on the bb believe that a really effective technique is to go dark. This can only work if you were the pursuer in the marriage and always doing things for your spouse. Otherwise, if you were the one who didn't show affection, etc. you need to do the opposite. This is one of your most effective techniques, Michele; doing the opposite of what comes naturally. For me, this was a) speaking up when I didn't like something, but doing it in a calm and reasoned voice, instead of holding everything in for months and then losing it, which was my normal way of relating; b) being more openly affectionate c) praising my h for things he did, both small and large; the positive results of this were seen most when I continuously praised him for being such a wonderful father; he became an even better dad; d) becoming much more proud of my own career and involved in my own things rather than focusing so much on him; and last but not least, e) being much more sexually open, both in terms of frequency and style for lack of a better word.
Variations on doing the opposite were 1) acting as if;. It didn't bother me that he was being so awful to me, and thus not reacting. If only I had used this before, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation. I blamed my h for many things, but especially for not helping me. So I nagged and nagged, then got fed up and grew distant. You know the dance.
I should also add here that we went through three or four reconciliations, and every time we slid into the mlc black hole, it followed my haranguing about my h's continued contact with ow. He was not ready to stop seeing her altogether and he was certainly not ready to submit what he perceived as my tyranny on the matter. Once I changed my approach ; dropping all talk of ow, as well as distancing ; my h started to come around. (Now I know that sounds like I've contradicted myself ; first pursuing again, and then having to distance. But I see it as being very much aware of what's going on, and changing the dance where you see fit. At the beginning, pursuing my h yielded the most positive results, but after two years of an interminable dance around his mlc, what worked was doing the opposite and starting to distance.)
Another variation on doing the opposite was actions speak louder than words. I tend to be very wordy (could you have guessed if I hadn't told you that????) and so I stopped talking altogether. I used to engage my h in conversations on why we were suitable and how we DID communicate, but he would only take the opposite stance, so I stopped talking about it, and I started to NOT communicate at all. He started to seek me out a bit more. The truth of the matter is we communicate a whole lot, but he was missing the soulmate material he thought he had with ow. But when he no longer had me to talk to, then he realized he missed it. The other action I developed was to be resolute without being hard, and soft without being wishy-washy ; and this was an approach I realized I lacked when reading Barbara Colorosa's book Kids are Worth It.
Another thing I did was changing the medium. At first, I was probably not a great communicator about my own needs or dissatisfactions in the marriage, and any communication would have been through writing. I was always much more comfortable writing down my deep emotions. At the beginning, I really worked hard to change that. I started to be much better at talking, not just about easy topics but also hard ones. But at the end of the two years, I stopped talking especially about OR, and at one crucial point emailed my h when he was on business overseas. It really got his attention. I had asked him to seriously consider moving out when he returned. It took two emails, but I got a seriously heartfelt apology from him for putting me through such heartache, though still no indication that he would do anything to remedy that. That was a year ago. In February, I had finally heard the we don't communicate story for the last time I could stand it, and became very uncommunicative!, even to the point of getting up and leaving the room when he walked in. I wasn't unpleasant, no more emotional reactions, just cool, calm and collected. But please understand that took two years to get like that. This wasn't something I could have done overnight; it took a lot of work. I'm happy to say I have been able to use it in several situations to my advantage.
In closing, once I discovered the ways I was positively affecting the outcome I tried to continue them. In retrospect, I can also see that my marriage was starting to heal a long time before I realized it ; Dr. Harley has a theory about an antagonistic period being necessary before intimacy can be restored, and I would have to say we went through quite a bit of that. Think of it as a process ; as you say Michele it's approximately one month of hardship for each year of marriage. Mine took a bit longer because my h was going through mlc, and because I insisted on asking too many whys and not taking enough action. I like to think of it as boot camp, however, and I'm in training for when my two children hit the teen years.
It has taken easily nine months of hard work on my h's part, where he has reassured me, listened to me, let me get upset, ask probing questions, and he has been consistently kind and gentle, as well as affectionate. I finally trust that we are well on the way to healing. But that came after three years of my learning a lot about myself ; both good and bad; and my h going through his turmoil too.
I want to thank you again, Michele, for first the insight into marriage relationships, and secondly having the courage to make a stand that not everyone agrees with (a lot of people thought, and still do think, that I'm nuts). And also for providing us this wonderful forum. As well, I wanted to say a work of thanks to my DB Coach, whom I spoke with on the telephone, and who gave me very solid advice.
Mamabear, this is something I found helpful and related to. Maybe you'll find it helpful, too.
NM, Thank you so much for finding that post and sharing it with me. I know this will take time. By nature I am not a very patient person. I like instant gratification and am expecting the "big miracle".
I need to focus on the small positive things in our R - like H not staying out all night anymore. He used to go out drinking and them call to say he was too drunk to drive - at least once a week. I never really knew where he slept, he said in his car....but regardless he has not done that in the last month so I am grateful. It also seems as like I put too much energy trying to fix our situation sometimes to the point of making mountains out of mole hills. Of all the books that I have read they all really say the same thing - the only person that you have any control over is yourself. I cannot rely on my H for my happiness. I need to leave him be to work out his own turmoil. There are lots of times when I question my sanity, like why the heck am I letting someone treat me this way. This is when I lose it and tell him to leave. He clearly does not want to - so I need to stop pushing him. I believe in our marriage and have faith that one day my H will return my feelings of love and respect until then I will stop shooting myself in the foot and continue to come here and vent and remind myself that I'm not the only one in this situation and I/we will make it.
Ok, I just hung up from my girlfriend, who has been married and divorced 4 times. She thinks I am crazy. I told her about the receipt that I found that confirms my H is still involved in an affair. She says I am a doormat. She feels the only reason my H is still here is because for whatever reason the OW can't get out of her relationship. Or maybe the OW gave my H an ultimatum and because of financial reasons he cannot leave therefore she has cooled things with him (which would explain his not going out as much) and he is desparetely trying to get her back. As a side note, he called earlier to tell me that he is going out for a few beers after work for "march madness" - is that what you call affairs these days LOL.
Anyway, now my girlfriend has made me rethink my position again. I am so wishy washy. On the one hand I really want my marriage to work but do I have so little respect for myself that I am willing to put up with this crap? What if his feelings for me never change? Am I supposed to remain in a platonic relationship "for the kids"? Help
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