Beyond the trip...back to reality...Part 7

[grasshopper]

New day, new thread. Thank you once again to all who continue to follow my sitch and help me so much. Without you, I would not be where I am today.

Now, to answer a post by Firedragon on PArob's thread. It was addressed to both of us...

Wow, the old fire breathing FD is back! I like it! That trip really DID do some good for you, lol!

Ok, Rob, since I am on first, I will speak for us (ok, maybe not. I will speak for me).

Ahem..
And that being said after stating that ROB is concentrating on negatives, overlooking the positives and creating a self-fulfilling prophecy..
EIther I don't get something, or GH just recently said that a) his W clearly said that she went on the trip with him because she wanted to be with him (as if it's not obvious by itself)
b) she doesn't care much about OM's feelings
c) that she is not going to move out (read: not considering separation)
d) is comfortable around him.

I mean, duh!
Of course you can infer all kinds of things from it, that she's just using you to take her on a trip, that she is lying to you about OM (by the way he must be really happy about her going away with you, otherwise he is miserable but again not that it stopped her..), and that she already filed .
Did you mention self-fulfilling prophecy? I wonder what it might be..

Ok. So reading between the lines, I get that you are suggesting that I take my own advice and stop being so negative? (lol). The lucky thing for me is that I have been really successful in keeping this to myself so far and very little of it seeps into my real life outside my head. I am not, however, ignorant to the fact that just entertaining these negative thoughts all the time can't help but influence my actions and moods. I will really try to do as I suggested to Rob and STOP! Thank you.

Ooh..
DO you imply that right now, not going berserk, losing it, picking fights and snapping at her you ARE NOT being a normal feeling human being?
Or, is becoming a better person and feeling human being means that you feel a lot of emotions some of which of course are let's just say NOT pleasant, but at the same time you choose whether to react or not, not your emotions?
In the same way that you're doing now?
And it only feels unnatural because it's still uncharacteristic of you, since you used to dwell on things, never let go, control everything; which by the way was what led you to the place you are now?
WHat do you think?

Ok, I am totally clear as to what you are infering but lemme try to answer you.
I am saying that I wonder when I will feel safe just being around my W without always being on guard with my feelings. I do not mean to say that I want to just be a reactive, emotional person, just one who is trusting of my W not to hurt them all the time without concern.
I love the fact that I can not choose when, and if I react to my emotions. In that respect, I think I have grown emensly from that controlling, obsessing person who used his emotions as a weapon.
Also, my ability to NOT dwell on things so much is really helping me actually BE a human, living in the real world, for the first time in my life. It feels unnatural, but really good too!
Is that the answer you were looking for, or did I get the question wrong?

another thing is about your W having to break it with OM in order to start working on your M.
While on the one hand it's reasonable, on the other, the reason why they still keep contact with them is probably the effect of forbidden fruit.
They know it's nesessary, they feel pressure and guilt, which make them resist and cling to the A. I think.
The trick is not to tell them to give up the A< but to make them want to do so. Otherwise even if it happens, it might look and feel as if they were forced to do so, which implies that it was against their will, and they gave up something valuable as asacrifice. See where I'm leading?
It's not likely that by pressuting them you'll get the result that you want: their determination to work on M. So don't pressure.
Instead, make her fear losing YOU. Make her fear that she took a great guy for granted and might lose him, since he doesn't pay that much attention anymore to whatever she's doing..
See where I'm going?

I SEE WHERE YOU'RE GOING (to cali...lol). No, seriously, I do understand that. It's one of the reasons why I have a big problem right now. Things in our life are REALLY normal, but normal in terms of our OLD M, one I thought I was rid of. We are back into the same routines and that is NOT where I want to be.
I HAVE stopped putting pressure on her so much. Really, I have only come right out and SAID for her to drop him a couple times, but I know my actions still pressure her.
Point is, when I see our life settleing into this comfortable state again, it makes me want to put pressure on her again because I know this life, the way we used to live it, is NOT what either of us want, and NOT conducive to making her want to dump him and come back full time.
Don't get me wrong. I KNOW I am still a MUCH better person after all this and really that is what matters most I think. She would have to be blind not to see that, even through the fog of our "normal" life.
In that respect, maybe I need to reevaluate how I think about my M being "different". Maybe it IS enough for me to have changed, and that alone will be change enough to affect subtle, but important changes in my M and W. Wow, sounds a lot like DB, eh?

Thank you FD. You have given me something today.

GH

[grasshopper]

I am just thinking out loud here. What got me thinking is that I am still hung up on this jewelery my W got in Ireland and in particular, the rings she got. Who is she wearing the Claddagh ring for? It's a lover's ring. We are not lovers. She does not wear her wedding ring, so why this ring if it is somehow about us?

Ok, that was the thing that GOT me thinking. What I am really thinking about is how we get SO caught up in the problems and not the solutions. I especially am guilty of this. More than that, if the problem doesn't HAVE a solution, or doesn't have one visible now, then it's not worth spending time on and can be dismissed or at least put aside.
People always say if you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem. I think I need to really apply that in my life and this sitch.
The ring problem has no solution, or at least one I think will actually be a solution to me not feeling bad about the ring(s). So therefore, I need to just drop it. If I ask her about them (again) then she will either lie or tell the truth, neither of which seems to make me feel better. If I don't ask her, but continue to dwell, I am surely going to feel badly. The key is to, as usual, detach, and my thinking about solution-less problems is a way for me to do that right now. Don't deny the feelings, just deny the urge to keep letting them rule the day.
Of course, this basically the same as just not obsessing or dwelling on things in general, but it is different enough in the respect that it gives me another tool to help do those things.
Basically, if I am not able or willing to act on something, let it go because to do otherwise just causes me to act and feel contrary to how I want to act and feel.
I do not want to be in denial, just really get to a point where I address these things, make a decision and then follow through on it instead of wallowing and "suffering" through everything until I just "get over it" enough to be ok.
Suffering in my case is SO self inflicted at this point. It's almost like I am looking for it. Sad really. It needs to stop.

On another note, does this make sense to anyone? I think I have been here before, but now that things are getting more "normal" in my life, at least around the house, I keep having thoughts of being ok if things don't work out, and I decide to move on from my M. It seems crazy to me that things are finally looking up and NOW I start to be ok with the alternative. I suppose it's natural, but it's also scary. IS this natural?

GH

[oldtimer]

Hi GH,

Perfectly natural and to be expected. You weren't happy in the old M, then the bomb came. You panicked, all of the sudden you couldn't believe how much you loved W, what an idiot you'd been, blah blah blah.

Now that the panic is letting up, you are able to take a more reasonable look at things and start toward a more balanced approach. You are bound to start thinking about what you want out of an R and what you aren't getting.

Here's where you can get ready to duck. It is also not at all surprising that despite your growth you find yourself in something that looks pretty much like the old R. You've been there with open arms, no matter what, without putting in place sufficient boundaries to respect your needs or wishes.

She ran, now she's back, but she hasn't had to do any personal growth. As long as you continue to accept it, you will continue to receive the same treatment.

Get real. She is wearing a Claddagh ring and presumably bought one for someone else (at least I think this is what you think.) You are right that this is either a lover's ring or a someone-looking-for-a-lover's ring. I doubt that the symbolism is lost on your W. But, even if it is, you should not be operating in an R in a way in which you are scared to ask about it and to require a straight answer on it. Do you really want to make key decisions in your life based on partial and/or inaccurate information? Do you really want to sleep in the same bed with someone that YOU BELIEVE is either advertising her commitment to another or advertising her availability? It doesn't MATTER whether you have misunderstood what is going on. What does matter is that you respect yourself on such issues and quit tiptoeing around on eggshells! At the very least, start calling her on her anger when you ask about something that makes her feel guilty for treating you so badly. You are allowing her to stay in her comfort zone and rewarding her for blaming you for her problems.

Best,
Oldtimer

[FireDragon]

Hi GH,

Wow, the old fire breathing FD is back!
I never departed! Just been.. sick. You know, frozen throat and all

I will really try to do as I suggested to Rob and STOP!
No, don't;
the more you concentrate on stopping something, the more you'll bring that something to mind.
Just every time you say that you and Rob were separated at birth, really think about it and about what is so similar in you

I do not mean to say that I want to just be a reactive, emotional person, just one who is trusting of my W not to hurt them all the time without concern.
Well, I'm not sure if I can reassure you. See, it can happen any time with any person - people can and will hurt our feelings, maybe not in the way your W does, but still.
There will probably be no guarantees with her either even when (I don't say IF, I say WHEN as Michelle suggests you do too ) your R is back on track.
The thing is I think, and I also think that it corresponds with what you posted on my tread, is that you are not defined by your feelings, and that's the goal of DBing. That whatever happens, even if your feelings are hurt, YOU ARE NOT CRUSHED, you are strong enough to continue being you.
Then, you're less afraid of your feelings being hurt, and you know what I think, at that point there's not much to guard, really. Because you're confident people can't crush you that easily, and therefore you have less trouble reacting.
I'm not saying that's when you can let the hell break loose, but when there's no hell to break loose since you're confident.
COnfused yet?

my ability to NOT dwell on things so much is really helping me actually BE a human, living in the real world, for the first time in my life. It feels unnatural, but really good too!

And that's because you're confident. You don't dwell not because you stop yourself from doing it and are being guarded, but because you don't feel the need to dwell, don't you?
Because you're now confident in your ability to accept and deal with life as it is, not as you planned it to be, period.

Now, having said that, would you entertain a thought that you were separated at birth as triplets?

We are back into the same routines and that is NOT where I want to be.
Point is, when I see our life settleing into this comfortable state again, it makes me want to put pressure on her again because I know this life, the way we used to live it, is NOT what either of us want, and NOT conducive to making her want to dump him and come back full time.
Well, about this I don't even have to think, I'll just go directly to Michelle's book, remember Change your life and everyone in it?
It says, quote, imagine yourself and your life as if a miracle happened inyour sleep and your problems and worries melted away. WHat do you picture yourself feeling? Doing?

Maybe you could try to picture yourself and your M as having changed, different, and hold that picture in your mind; therefore you'll act differently.
You could also try to hold a mental image of this board and what we'll say

But you're right. Don't get sucked into same old routines, because they are the road that brought you here in the first place.
And yes, if we are to believe Michelle, significant changes in oneself will bring about change in R and another spouse.
Just don't forget about those changes until they become a permanent part of you.

[grasshopper]

Ah, my OT.

Ok. So when she claims she just "wanted the ring" because she liked the one I bought her long ago but wanted one in white gold or silver (and BTW, the ring she got him was NOT a claddagh, just a plain Celtic weave if that matters, and it does to me) and I think it's a lie, how do I proceed? Call her on the lie? Why stop there, why not call her on her life of lies these days.
Well, I think the answer is because I already know enough to make certain decisions and knowing the answer to these questions will not change those decisions for me.
Like many have said here before, stop asking the questions because they will either lie, or not, but it's really hard to tell the difference sometimes, especially right now from my perspective.
My point is that she keeps SAYING, and really, acting like things between the OM and her are on the decline. As for us being on the "incline" that is still to be determined.
So, me bringing this ring thing up is a sign from me that I do not believe her. Sure, maybe I DON'T believe her, but who cares right now. Things are what they are and I don't really believe I will know the real truth anytime soon so I need to make decisions about these things centered around that.
As you say, I guess I am making big decisions based on incomplete information, but isn't that the nature of the beast? Since when does the LBS ever really get the whole picture? Since when do we get the luxury of knowing all we need to know, or want to know. Since when SHOULD we know all that?
My point is that it doesn't change anything if I find out the ring does or does not symbolize something about the OM.
Last night she went out of her way to say the both of us bought them when we were over there when talking to a couple we were visiting with. The inference was that we bought them for each other. Of course, who knows the truth...which is my point.

I said something that FD called me on. I said that I didn't know when to stop detaching and just go back to being a normal human being.
What that means to me is that sometime I am just going to have to BE me and stop worrying about all this.
Either my W is going to see, respect, like and love the man I am or she is not. All this little crap, all the details are NOT the point. Sure, they could help me make a decision when I need to, but right now, this call, or that ring, or those words, or some actions do not mean a dramatic shift.

I don't know where my W is right now. I keep saying that, but I DO know where I am right now and I like that place. I like that I am able to recognize that I have choices and I am free to make them whenever I want. I like that you, OT, let me in on a little secret about me being responsible for my own pain and suffering in all this. I like being in control of myself to a better extent and NOT needing to control my W.
My W is going to do what she wants. If she wants to do me eventually, then great, if not, I have done all I can do to really be true to the man I want to be, and the man I think she really missed over the past few years. Will it be enough? Dunno. For now, it's mainly good. We'll see how tomorrow goes...and so on...and so on...

GH

[PArob]

Okay, warning, partial hijack ahead......

Perfectly natural and to be expected. You weren't happy in the old M, then the bomb came. You panicked, all of the sudden you couldn't believe how much you loved W, what an idiot you'd been, blah blah blah.

Now that the panic is letting up, you are able to take a more reasonable look at things and start toward a more balanced approach. You are bound to start thinking about what you want out of an R and what you aren't getting

This is exactly where I am right now with regard to my sitch. The positives that I see are relative to where things where right around bomb drop time....relatively speaking, things are better than they were four or five months ago...but, and this is the caveat, its positive in the sense that it is going back to the "old ways". Clearly, I have certain wants and needs in this R that are not being met and basically I feel like I'm settling for scraps by focusing on the old way of things as being a "positive." Does this make sense to anyone? I guess here is the dilemma....at some point I know that R saving must convert to R building and it will take both of us to do that. I guess its all about recognizing the right time to make it work and in the meantime I must continue to make positive changes in myself that will hopefully effectuate positive changes in the R to a degree that it will be comfortable to have her work on it as well.

I don't know where my W is right now. I keep saying that, but I DO know where I am right now and I like that place. I like that I am able to recognize that I have choices and I am free to make them whenever I want. I like that you, OT, let me in on a little secret about me being responsible for my own pain and suffering in all this. I like being in control of myself to a better extent and NOT needing to control my W.
My W is going to do what she wants. If she wants to do me eventually, then great, if not, I have done all I can do to really be true to the man I want to be, and the man I think she really missed over the past few years. Will it be enough? Dunno. For now, it's mainly good. We'll see how tomorrow goes...and so on...and so on...

GH, I think this sums it up completely. Be the person you need to be for yourself. We can't control our spouses actions, only ours and hopefully they will eventually see the person they once fell in love with somewhere in there.

[oldtimer]

Much better You sound much less like a victim of circumstances now...

BTW, if it helps, I'd say you are just plain paranoid about the ring given all the facts. YOU BOUGHT HER ONE BEFORE??? There is no way that ring has anything to do with OM. IF ANYTHING, she is longing for times like those when you bought her the other ring, and, she might have even been trying to reach out to you in her own way by getting that ring. WAIT, I take it back. The Claddagh MAY have something to do with OM in that is a symbol IN HIS FACE that she is NOT with him but with you.

If you were more detached, rather than so reactive, then you might have even seen her getting that ring as a very sweet gesture. What if she had purchased a CD because it had one of your old songs on it, would you have assumed that also was about OM?

This brings be to: I said that I didn't know when to stop detaching and just go back to being a normal human being.

I have to recommend that you really read up on enmeshment issues. The fact is, if you were detached, you would be yourself and not sacrificing yourself to the drama and the R. You would feel like a normal human being. Detachment isn't something you do while your wife is boffing the neighbor, it is a healthy way to relate to people so you can offer them genuine love and compassion rather than filtering everything through your own needs and fears.

Best,
Oldtimer

[grasshopper]

No, don't;
the more you concentrate on stopping something, the more you'll bring that something to mind.
Just every time you say that you and Rob were separated at birth, really think about it and about what is so similar in you

Trust me, I get great mileage from Rob's thread. It is SO similar to mine, and yet he is a bit ahead of me so it's helpful to see him succeeding and failing in places where I either am or will be.

Well, I'm not sure if I can reassure you. See, it can happen any time with any person - people can and will hurt our feelings, maybe not in the way your W does, but still.
There will probably be no guarantees with her either even when (I don't say IF, I say WHEN as Michelle suggests you do too ) your R is back on track.
The thing is I think, and I also think that it corresponds with what you posted on my tread, is that you are not defined by your feelings, and that's the goal of DBing. That whatever happens, even if your feelings are hurt, YOU ARE NOT CRUSHED, you are strong enough to continue being you.
Then, you're less afraid of your feelings being hurt, and you know what I think, at that point there's not much to guard, really. Because you're confident people can't crush you that easily, and therefore you have less trouble reacting.
I'm not saying that's when you can let the hell break loose, but when there's no hell to break loose since you're confident.
COnfused yet?

Not confused at all other than to try to figure out why I didn't think to say it that way.
I am not looking for any guarantees that I won't get hurt, I am just wishing that the day would come when, as you say, I would just rely on my inner ability to deal with that hurt and not have to avoid it so much like I do now in being detached. I want to be "attached" (please, I mean that in the most non-clingy way possible) and still be able to not get "crushed" as you say. Very well put.

And that's because you're confident. You don't dwell not because you stop yourself from doing it and are being guarded, but because you don't feel the need to dwell, don't you?
Because you're now confident in your ability to accept and deal with life as it is, not as you planned it to be, period.

Thanks for that. I am MUCH more confident that I have ever been before, at least in my personal life. Professionally, I have always been confident to a fault and now I can say that some of that is true in my personal life too. It's a great feeling, but honestly, I am not totally convinced of it's staying power yet. It will take time for it to be permanent in me. It's close though!

But you're right. Don't get sucked into same old routines, because they are the road that brought you here in the first place.
And yes, if we are to believe Michelle, significant changes in oneself will bring about change in R and another spouse.
Just don't forget about those changes until they become a permanent part of you.

I do believe in that theory of self change brings about change in those around you. I've seen it in my sitch and others. It does work, or maybe even just the fact that our perspective is changed that we perceive it to be different. No matter, whatever happens when we change is good. That I know.
As for the changes sticking. I thing some of mine are here for good and others I have to still work on (like my confidence and ability to NOT base what I say on what her reaction likely will be).
I like how I am right now and I really hope I stay this way. After all, it's up to me to do that, no?

GH

[grasshopper]

I have to recommend that you really read up on enmeshment issues. The fact is, if you were detached, you would be yourself and not sacrificing yourself to the drama and the R. You would feel like a normal human being. Detachment isn't something you do while your wife is boffing the neighbor, it is a healthy way to relate to people so you can offer them genuine love and compassion rather than filtering everything through your own needs and fears.

Ok, point taken. Any suggestions on where to start reading about those issues?

I know I probably mis-posted when I said I wanted to be attached. It's not what I mean. I guess I just mean I want to be in a loving relationship where I am free to BE and so is she.

If you were more detached, rather than so reactive, then you might have even seen her getting that ring as a very sweet gesture. What if she had purchased a CD because it had one of your old songs on it, would you have assumed that also was about OM?

Ok, I hear that, and agree. Thing is, can you explain why she would not just come out and say she was buying the ring, and now wearing it for "us" and not him. My W is a very smart woman, and she knows full well what I think about the ring. It's why I haven't asked her about it.
So it may not be ABOUT him, but why not say it's about us? Am I just being dense and "male" and just not reading this right? Am I wrong in thinking that if someone wanted to make this kind of statment, they would want to make sure the main person they wanted to hear the statment understood it?
Sorry for being so simplistic.

GH

[grasshopper]

I was just going through the board trying to track down some of my old peeps (hope, lisa, ss, nys, etc) and I read something that Hope posted that struck a cord.

She finished the post by talking about boundaries and how important they are.

I think that's one of the real confusing things about my sitch, and maybe it shouldn't be.
EARLY on I think I made it clear what the boundaries were for me with all this. I think my W understands that even though I know about the A, taking calls from him in front of me is not acceptable. Him in our house is unacceptable. Basically, "throwing it in my face" is not something I am going to take lightly.
Now, I guess that encourages a certain amount of deception, but really, it doesn't have to. She still basically tells me when she's going out with him. She still takes calls, just not when I am around, and she knows I know she takes the calls.
For me, it's just a matter of acceptable boundaries and I have always seen her observance of those boundaries as a good thing. Do you think I am right in that belief, or does it really have nothing to do with anything other than how I feel? If I look at it from that perspective, my boundaries have no bearing on our R or anything else other than making sure I know where I am comfortable and where I am not so I can make appropriate decisions. Is that about right? Boundaries are not so much about others respecting you as you respecting yourself?

GH