Since two people have commented on my not posting anymore, let me explain. NG told me that she prefers that I not post on the BB. This is a result of things in the past.
It's probably a good idea for me, as talking too much about this stuff tends to make me angry rather than provide solutions.
The day after she asked me the question, "What do I have to do to make you feel wanted?" I told her that I had signed back on to DB and would be posting to get ideas how to communicate my answer to her. As I said before, you all have given me great input. But it seems that we've come full circle on the subject.
Now that I have confirmed what I already knew, it's up to me to do what I know. That's why I won't be posting anymore. Not because NG told me I can't.
I think you're caught in a loop of binary thinking:
She will be the f*ckbuddy I need.
or
She will never be the f*ckbuddy I need.
Your wife is in an impossible position.
If she does nothing sexually, then it's the sam-o, sam-o and the relationship continues to hurtle into a shitpit.
If she does anything sexually, you discount it because she's not exhibiting the ideal that you hold in your head. And the relationship continues to hurtle into a shitpit.
Either of these thoughts & actions lead you to a shitpit and what you've posted in this thread indicates that you believe that's going to be your marriage's final resting place.
It doesn't have to be that way.
Why is it not possible to accept that this is a process and that you can make both your sex life and your marriage better? What ever endeavor one sets out on, there is a period of "training" time. You have never had the sex life you desired and NG has never had the relationship she desired.
What so impossible about the two of you making a concerted effort at working toward what both of you want?
Why can't you reach for her hand, lean over and touch her, express warmth toward her?
Or do you do these things each day and she recoils from you?
Why can't she work toward expressing her sexuality, coming to you with lips ready for a passionate kiss, a hug with a grope?
Or does she do this things and you recoil from her?
She caused harm by her actions & words toward you in the past. You caused harm with your actions & words toward her in the past.
Is she still causing active harm toward you with her words and actions? Are you still causing active harm toward her with your words and actions?
If both of you are saying harsh, uncaring words toward each other - are you both willing to stop it?
From my understanding of her posts, NG has approached you for sex and you have turned her down. It appears that there is little attempt by you to express affection toward her. If I recall correctly you have made love to her in the past and then later told her you didn't enjoy it.
I read her posts and unless she's playing to the audience here, I see her working, thinking, acting on improving her relationship with you.
Are you doing the same - working, thinking and acting on improving your marriage? I haven't seen an indication of that. Correct me if I'm wrong. Or is your assertion of your give a damn being broke, an indication of the lack of your participation in your marriage?
NG needs to step out of her comfort zone and work towards boosting and expressing her sexuality.
But you need to stop stepping on her seed sprouts and grinding them down because they aren't the sunflowers you always wanted. How can anything grow under that condition?
Did she squash you in the past? Yeah. From ignorance, selfishness, etc.. If you are squashing her now, to me it is the greater offense - because you are doing it from a position of knowing better.
Can she become a sexual banshee in the next couple of weeks? Unlikely.
But she can actively work on her sexuality. She can actively work on her sexual inhibitions. She can strive to push open her sexual envelope of experience. And she can do it quickly - we're talking a few weeks, not years based on how often you're having sex now and how willing you are to work with her.
But she is never going to be able to do that in your current relationship with full success, because it isn't safe to do so with you at this time.
Perhaps a part of you enjoys giving back to her as good as you got in the past? I hope that's not true.
You wrote about "not paying for sex with romance".
And if I recall correctly, you used to think foreplay was a waste of time. I hope that's not true anymore.
NG can no longer hide behind the "no nookie" sign. Her eyes have been opened and her heart softened toward you. Romance is not a way to purchase sex, it is a form of foreplay and you now have a wife who isn't making you jump through hoops. Do you perceive any affectionate interaction with your wife as some sort of "selling out"? That you're compromising yourself in some fashion?
The romance you express toward your wife NOW isn't a hoop to jump through in the hopes of ML, it is what it should have been - a way of touching base with each other during the day, keeping the emotional connection viable and preparing for a fun time later.
You are not doomed as this thread seems to indicate.
If you open your heart, deal with your resentment & hurt, and start working together with your wife on your sex life, you may discover that you are heading closer and closer to that ideal you hold. And you may find the something that satisfies that longing you have.
Quote: She does say that she wants to do what I want and she does say that she wants me. I just can't seem to get past the evidence. For example, I thought for years that she turned me down and rejected my ideas was because she didn't like sex, and I told her so. She has strongly denied that. Ok...so if she really likes sex then it must be me. I don't know what else to think.
At some point you have to drop the load you're dragging in regards to your past interactions.
She turned you down because she was ignorant (this does not mean stupid, just unknowledgeable).
She turned you down because she was inexperienced.
She turned you down because she wanted a shiny knight to sweep her off her feet.
She turned you down because women our age and of our background were indoctrinated with the poison that good girls don't engage in sex.
She turned you down because she had not been instructed on the goodness of sex during her formative years.
Find me a church of the 60s and 70s who didn't leave the youth with the understanding that sex was dirty, unspeakable, a physical necessity and an indication of the sinfullness of humans - and I'll start searching for the hidden pentagram - cause they either didn't exist or they were "of the debbil".
Quote:
When she says she wants me, I think she's saying that she loves me, wants us to be close, wants an affectionate relationship with hugging and kissing, and that of course will lead to sex. I want all of that, too.
What I can't seem to get across is that I need her to want me sexually. To be pointed about it, I need her to want my d*ck! I need her to want to use me for her personal and selfish sexual satisfaction. I don't see anything unloving about that, and frankly, that would make me the most romantic man on the planet.
You can get there, Barney, * but not by rejecting her, * not by making rude comments about her body, * not by telling her it was good and then retroactively tellin her it wasn't.
You CAN get there by * making love more often. * extending your affection and physical touch toward each other during the day. * taking the time to verbally express good things to each other. * stop playing pushme-pullyou. * start making better memories to help replace the hurtful ones from your past. * by both of you working toward stretching and increasing your sexuality. * by you extending yourself to your wife sexually, instead of leaving it all to her and then rejecting her when she tries to initiate. * give her the room to grow into her sexuality rather than judging her for not being there yet.
Quote:
I've told her that. Her reply has been, "But I do!" But she often walks by my morning wood without acknowledgment and always without contact. She did rub on me in the hotel a few weeks ago (as she said in her thread), but it seems to only be in "coreographed" or scheduled situations.
How is she supposed to know that she can approach you sexually and not be ignored by you? Can you not meet her halfway? You can't laughingly say, "Someone's waving at you over here."?
And I call bullshit on the hotel situation. It was rude for you to ignore your wife. Period.
I'm sure there is some choreographing going on. You should recognize the symptoms - you know the -
"I wonder if I should intiate."
"I wonder if he's open to having sex with me."
"I wonder the best way to approach him in a way that will be positive and hopefully be successful."
"Okay, try to forget that he turned you down last week and see if you can work up enough nerve to approach him again."
"I really want to connect with my husband, maybe tonight's the night."
You know, those same feelings you went through in the past. You didn't choreograph those? Before NG had the epiphany and started recognizing her error?
Quote:
My dilema is that I'm not convinced that what I want is possible or fair to her. It's like making your kids eat a bite of broccoli every so often because it's good for them. That's understandable and good parenting. But it's different to expect a grown adult to start liking broccoli when they really don't.
You can't determine that Barney. You can't look at it from this side and say what she is and is not capable of.
I like cheese. So, years ago while as guest at someone's table, I thought, "blue cheese dressing"? Hey, it's got cheese in it, can't be bad!"
I thought I was going to retch at the table.
But, I love blue cheese now. The analogy breaks some in that sex never made me retch, but it was a taste that I had not fully developed.
What I have discovered is this - I want sex more often now. I am more comfortable with it. More comfortable with NOP. I am looking forward to some experimentation in the near future (we have a major occurance that we must get through which has resulted in massive stress levels leaving us both without the werewithal to pursue it). I no longer fail to orgasm.
Quote:
CeMar said something true when it come to my desires. "I don't need sex, I need NG to need sex!" It goes even further for me. I need NG to need me for the sex she needs! That's probably not fair, but I still want it.
What are you doing that will help accomplish this?
This can be done. I am living proof of it. You have a willing wife now, but you seem to push her further away from you. Treat your wife in a loving, sexual manner and she can treat you in a loving, sexual manner.
But you're going to have to drop your weapons, your resentments, and whatever other negative thing that you are holding dearly to your chest rather than re-engage with your wife.
Barney I hope you take the time to really let sink in what Mrs. Nop has said to you.
You have everything available to you right now to get what you want. Being bitter about what you didnt know how to get in the past is going to make you lose out on a fantastic opportunity.
Barney, saw your post before it was deleted. I find myself at a lost in regards to your response.
I didn't accuse you of being bitter, I said you had been hurt. And it's hard to keep those hurts from rearing their head especially in a long-term issue regarding something as delicate as sex. It's a reality that you can't build an intimate relationship if you can't somewhat let go of the past and be willing to build something new with your wife.
I don't understand why you would say that you were in a positive place and that my responses to you are responsible for you now being in a bad place.
I'll be frank and tell you that I see it as blameshifting and scapegoating to accuse me of being responsible for destroying whatever happy thoughts you were having.
My intention was to give you hope. I don't see how saying that your wife can get there sexually is a negative thing. I don't understand why you lashed out at me in anger. I'm not your mom, nor was I trying to approach you from some motherly personna which you evidently found offensive.
I'm open to you pointing out areas where I was offensive, I'll be glad to explain them or apologize for them, whichever is necessary. I'm open to being told where I was wrong, misunderstood or presumed. If, on the other hand, you find my input so offensive, just let me know and I'll bow out.
Summed up, I see a wife who, faulty or not, is actively trying to work things out with you.
Sucks that she didn't do that in year's past. But you both are too aware to let it go back to that, your conscience won't let you do it unperturbed. But you have to be actively, consistantly engaged in the process, too.
What you did in the hotel room was the equivalent of HG's wife reaching over and picking up a book while he's loving on her. You saw the forum's reactions to that. How was what you did any different? Is my responce to that what you found so offensive?
This is incredible. You see that I delete my post and respond anyway. LMAO!
The fact is that your posts took something good away from me. Call it blameshifting if you want to. It's also a fact that my anger over it is my problem and up to me to deal with.
But in the process of recounting what I've done wrong and telling me what I have to do, did you bother to ask yourself why I would have posted if I wasn't trying to make things better? Why would I do that if I didn't see hope for something better?
Did you not see that I gave my W credit for significant changes re: sex? I even credited her for good intentions even when we missed in our communication and took responsibility for hurting her in what I've said.
Did you examine my posts for the "holdover hurts" you claim I have? There aren't any there.
Did you see anything in those posts that were negative or disparaging about my W? None of those present either.
Did you not see that I was trying to find a realistic and fair approach toward her? Or did you see these things and discount them because you know better? The advice about me "not stepping on her seed sprouts because the aren't sunflowers" might have worked for you there, too.
I accept that your intention was to give me hope. If only intentions were what counted. I certainly wouldn't have made the mistakes I have with my W, and the same would probably be true for her.
Unfortunately, your posts communicated something damaging to me. But, as you said, I'm just blameshifting.
Feel free to continue correcting me. I won't get in your way by responding further.
When do you plan to start having sex with your willing wife again?
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Quote: This is incredible. You see that I delete my post and respond anyway. LMAO!
The fact is that your posts took something good away from me. Call it blameshifting if you want to. It's also a fact that my anger over it is my problem and up to me to deal with.
I responded because I read your post and saw the anger towards me. Are you supposed to have some sort of "get out of what I said" card after you've blown your fuse and after your target has seen it?
Your anger is your problem right up until the point that you aim it at someone else.
Quote:
But in the process of recounting what I've done wrong and telling me what I have to do, did you bother to ask yourself why I would have posted if I wasn't trying to make things better? Why would I do that if I didn't see hope for something better?
Your posts were asking for input, I assumed you were wanting to make things better. What possible words of mine ever indicated that I thought otherwise? I encourage you to point them out, because I'm pretty sure they aren't there. So, your strawman is just that. Wanting things to be better and hoping for things to be better aren't the same thing.
Quote:
Did you examine my posts for the "holdover hurts" you claim I have? There aren't any there.
Your words from this very thread:
"I just can't seem to get past the evidence. For example, I thought for years that she turned me down and rejected my ideas was because she didn't like sex, and I told her so. She has strongly denied that. Ok...so if she really likes sex then it must be me. I don't know what else to think.
Smells like a heldover hurt to me. An understandable one under the circumstances. If my recognizing your legitimate hurts is a bashable offense, well, whale away.
Quote:
Did you see anything in those posts that were negative or disparaging about my W? None of those present either.
Why yes, I did.
"I've told her that. Her reply has been, "But I do!" But she often walks by my morning wood without acknowledgment and always without contact. She did rub on me in the hotel a few weeks ago (as she said in her thread), but it seems to only be in "coreographed" or scheduled situations."
Quote:
Did you not see that I was trying to find a realistic and fair approach toward her? Or did you see these things and discount them because you know better? The advice about me "not stepping on her seed sprouts because the aren't sunflowers" might have worked for you there, too.
Yeah, I did see you searching for a fair approach. And because of that, I pointed out the things that can hinder. I also encouraged you that she can express more of the sexuality that you long for. Oddly enough, I saw several other people point out things that might help and things that might hinder. Were they discounting you as well, did they think they knew better?
Look, I see a pissed off man who decided to express a little steam toward someone who had the temerity to point out that BOTH of you are responsible for the current condition of your marriage and that BOTH of you are responsible for its resurrection.
As evidenced by other's responses to you, I see that I wasn't the only one that didn't glom that you felt you were in a good place just teetering at the gate of marital Valhalla. So, perhaps you might want to consider that your communication wasn't as clear as you thought rather than misplacing blame onto me for blowing you right back into your pit for pointing out some things that might be helpful in restoring your marriage.
What I read from your thread was disappointment, depression, a sense that maybe you had to settle for something that would never be fulfilling - so, no I didn't pick up on any sunshiney attititude.
Quote:
Unfortunately, your posts communicated something damaging to me. But, as you said, I'm just blameshifting.
Yes, you were. I'm still waiting for you to point out the damaging comments.
My comments that you made mistakes in the past? That you're making mistakes now? Well, welcome to the human race. I made a boat-load of them myself. Still make them today. Does it make me sad to consider the past? Yes, it does. However, acknowledging them is an exercise in personal growth. Are you damaged by acknowledging your own mistakes?
I am really curious as to what I communicated that was so damaging in your perception.
Off on a segue, I have recently started trying a slight shift in my thoughts and attitudes. I have spent time in the past pondering, worrying, even whining on occasion in regarding the amount and/or type of, or expression of love I am given.
I stopped in my tracks the other day as I was headed down that well-trodden path and asked myself the question, "How loveable am I being on a regular basis?" How much am I exerting myself to be loving and caring and to let my husband know how much I care for him.
Choices. Always choices.
How loveable are you (rhetorical you) being in your marriage? It's something to ponder.
Quote:
Feel free to continue correcting me. I won't get in your way by responding further.
Hey, feel free to continue blaming me for the quality of your day, your mood and your progress with your wife.
Or not, and exercise your own maturity by accepting the responsibility for your own moods, attitudes and behaviors.
I agree here. I think you have put your wife in a double bind. Kinda a catch 22.
It's kinda like saying "be spontaneous". Or "you better do it AND you better like it."
You want to her to want to have sex with you. To need to have sex with you. Great. She tries to have sex with you. That's not enough. All because you can "see in her eyes" that she doesn't really mean it, that she doesn't really want you. Puhleease. How do you know?
Take at face value that your W says she wants sex with you. She wants to have sex with yuo, and you are turning her down because she doesn't "want you enough". That's what I am hearing.
BTW, I believe that it is a far deeper and more mature love expression to do something for someone EVEN THOUGH IT MAY NOT BE WHAT YOU WANT TO DO THE MOST than it is to do something for them because YOU WANT IT FOR YOU. IOW, IF your W is offering to have sex with you DESPITE it not really being her thing, that is a profound expression of love because it is what you want, not what she wants.
FWIW
And you ask me what I want this year
And I try to make this kind and clear
Just a chance that maybe we'll find better days
Better Days... Goo Goo Dolls
but it was a taste that I had not fully developed.
