winning the war, but losing every battle

[landica]

Cobra: You make some very interesting points.

Is there any correlation between these two statements? My first thought when you said you were getting angry with your father’s self centeredness was, why don’t you tell him how much it hurts you, rather than just feel like attacking him?

---

With someone else, it might be worthwhile telling him how his comments hurt me. With my father, through long experience, I've learned that if I tell him that his statements hurt me, he'll go into attack mode.

"Sorry" is not one of the words in his vocabulary.

It sounds like you have a mindset that say you should accept your pain and sadness and just learn to live with it.

---

You're making an excellent point here. I hadn't thought of it exactly that way, but you're absolutely right.

---

To me this says you want the emotional bonding, the compassion, the intimacy, but you are not comfortable when you get it, so you felt smothered. With that guy you pushed away what you say you really want.

Quote:

---

I know it sounds that way, but, really, that guy, although he was emotionally available, had lots of other serious problems that caused me to end our relationship (for example, as time went on and he became involved in a bitter custody battle with his ex, he became very hostile towards *my* son -- which was a dealbreaker for me).

While the degree of closeness he wanted was a little difficult and scary for me, I wouldn't have broken up with him *because* of that.

And, now that I think about it, "Steve" (the guy I was madly in love with who started dating my best friend behind my back) was -- or at least seemed -- emotionally open and available. He just didn't really love me.

So like Corri says, you draw energy from others to please you, yet you keep them distant, all of which can be very consuming for the other person.

While you say you don’t want to “whine” about yourself, the fact is that you really do want to whine about yourself and you want others to make you feel better. You just don’t want to make yourself vulnerable by asking for it. So you make yourself dependent on others for setting your feeling of security. To me this all seems like a defensive structure you used to protect yourself from hurt. You learned to not want to want.

---

Yup. That sounds about right. Not a pretty picture, either. But how do I change this stance?

What are *you* doing about it, to the extent that this reflects your sitch and state of mind?

Whatever doesn't make you stronger, kills you. And it feels as though my ability to love and trust have been destroyed by a series of betrayals, large and small.

I'm a shadow of the person I was ten years ago. And I think of that person, who loved and trusted so easily with regret and with longing.

[landica]

But with my bf, I've become much more differentiated, and when his stuff needs work, I resist interfering. Not all the time, but most of the time. Even so, I dragged him to a R workshop, and insisted that he go into therapy. But I stay out of his finances, his housekeeping, and when he was drinking (mercifully he quit two years ago), I went to alanon. It's been a real path of growth for me to hold myself back from "smothering."

---

Gosh. This really struck a chord with me. Not because I see myself as ever having been smothering or overly involved in H/X/Bf's issues. But because I do see myself, over time, as pulling away from involvement to protect myself from hurt.

But you're putting such a positive spin on this process (and, obviously, it is a positive development for you). While for me, I see it as largely a negative. As being less able to care or trust (see my response to Cobra)

If you have time, read the article on heather's thread ("Am I creating an SSM?") on The Stockholm Syndrome. It talks about how we get bonded to people who are unkind and even abusive.

---

I'll take a look....

[Cobra]

Landica,

This very conversation came up last night with my W. She does not trust me because she thinks I twist and distort the truth when relaying events to our counselor. I tell both her and the counselor that what I say is purely from my point of view and is my reality. If my wife disagrees, then she can put forth her version, but since she saw it through her filters, I cannot know what she saw or thought was important. W wants me to accurately portray both sides of the issue. She thinks I make it sound like most of the problem is her fault, that I did nothing wrong and she is the one causing the problems. I told her that is impossible for me to be unbiased like she wants, and she needs to state her side. So she says I am lying, can’t be trusted and therefore she can’t create any feelings of intimacy toward me.

I told her that the fact she wants to argue over facts of what happened is exactly what Schnarch says on p.108 (I posted this on Happy Giant’s thread):

“Expecting trust, validation, and shared reality only encourages fights about “what really happened.” If you and your partner are constantly fighting about “reality,” you’re probably dependent on other-validated intimacy and you’re really arguing about whose reality will become the dominant reality and whose anxieties will prevail.”

This statement implies that she is as enmeshed as I am and the fact that I am not reflecting her reality (which makes her look bad, at least in her mind) has more to do with her than with me. I see this as a basic problem for any couple and in order for us to avoid this common problem, we need to communicate more. I have no problem admitting to her version of reality, if I know what that is. When we do talk, she seems to become much happier afterward, partly I think, because she feels like she has been heard.

So my job is to validate her as much as I can to relieve this insecurity, hoping that she will lower her defenses and begin to differentiate. She also wants me to critique myself and admit to my issues (which I did again last night). But I need to be careful about opening up. She has a tendency to ask for these kinds of things to use as ammunition against me later. Then she fails to own up to her stuff. Like I said before, with my wife, I need to maintain a certain level of “power” because otherwise she is content to stay stuck and not move at all. She is the avoider in the relationship and therefore yields more power. I need to maintain certain inducements to keep her engaged.

The problem with this strategy is that it keeps me too enmeshed with her. Were it not for the kids, I would really not care whether she gets upset with my version of the truth or not. So for now, we each state what we believe and leave it at that, trying to not get too upset over it. What I can do is to just keep in mind she is like that untamed dog, Blackfoot mentioned regarding the “Dog Whisperer.” She is yanking at the leash. As I am able to better see this, I can slowly lessen my anxiety and anger and just sit back and let her dance around by herself.

[blackfoot]

Cobra

She does not trust me because she thinks I twist and distort the truth when relaying events to our counselor. I tell both her and the counselor that what I say is purely from my point of view and is my reality

SO.

Sounds like her problem then. How much of your time is spent running around trying to figure out replies to your W cobra?
How much of your resources are being 'tasked' to fix all the R problems? at her behest? Stop letting her point a finger.

I told her that the fact she wants to argue over facts of what happened is exactly what Schnarch says on p.108

Has this every worked for you in the past as a 'tactic' towards resolution?
NO.
why are you still doing it?

has more to do with her than with me.
Yes.


So my job is to validate her as much as I can to relieve this insecurity, hoping that she will lower her defenses and begin to differentiate

No. thats not your job. Your job is to get rid of your insecurities and differentiate.... hate that word.. lovingly detach, which most people feel as acceptance, and lose your defensiveness.

I can slowly lessen my anxiety and anger and just sit back and let her dance around by herself
Bingo. and to add to that....while enforcing your boundaries. That takes Firmness. Not anger.

[Stigmata]

Welcome back L.

From your responses to Cobra's comments on your wanting not to want:

Yup. That sounds about right. Not a pretty picture, either. But how do I change this stance?

- Internally. It's okay to want again. And want better. Sure, might get heart broken again but we'll never control it; only our responses to it if OP do the breaking. Chance we're all taking. Thats why it's such a damned wild ride.

What are *you* doing about it, to the extent that this reflects your sitch and state of mind?

Whatever doesn't make you stronger, kills you. And it feels as though my ability to love and trust have been destroyed by a series of betrayals, large and small.

- Same here, Landica. But you know what? You're damned strong. You toughed out law school and are strong/assertive in your career. In your personal life, you were betrayed by an best friend and and an "unworthy" lover. Unworthy since he couldn't reciproccate your deep deep love. They both set you up for the first pain of losing an best friend. You set yourself up for the second pain of also losing an lover...only because you couldn't see into Steve's heart. Again, goes to the taking a chance and "wanting."

And you got both barrels from them. But know what? You survived it and carried on. Yep, sounds strong to me.

We have to forget about our past betrayals. Rear view mirror. And want again...knowing we could get our hearts stomped on again as we take the wild ride.

I'm a shadow of the person I was ten years ago. And I think of that person, who loved and trusted so easily with regret and with longing.

- No. The person you were ten years ago is a shadow of who you are right now. You exist corporeally in the here and now and are much stronger and wiser than she ever was. "She" is the ethereal 10-year old shadow, formless, of no substance, and in the past.

Who would cope better with future heartbreak? You as you are now or her as she was with all of her trust and inocence? I think we both know that answer. She ended up in the hospital over Steve. I don't see Landica of today ever reaching that point again. Because she's strong and wise.

Finally, I just wanted to say I am feeling all of these feelings you are having as well. I am aware of regrets creeping in and longing for things to be as they were long ago.

But that life is over; the happy paradigm ended. Time to start a new paradigm either with my/your x or someone else. Reliving our pasts only causes us to suffer unnecessarily since we have no humanly way of ever going back and reliving who we were then today or bringing that person forward to the present--while conveniently skipping over all of the pain.

Wish we could, yes. Can't. So we deal and live for today.

And, yes, want the best for ourselves; and owe it to ourselves not to settle for anything less. No do-overs. We only have this one shot on this Earth to live an full life full of chances and risks. Since always living to avoid such, ie, opting for the seemingly safe" path, is the fear-based path of "whew! Glad I made it to the end of my life pretty intact. My knees were shaking but I somehow survived and avoided a lot of potentially scary stuff even if that stuff would have given me a better life if I had participated."

...instead of, "Damn! What an heart-pounding wild ride that was. Can't say I dind't have an intense, full life. I feel exhilirated. I'm glad I dropped my fear and took that risk and jumped in with both feet. No regrets. Let me in through those Pearly Gates now, St. Peter." (or into the arms of 72 virgins or Nirvana or The Elysian Fields blah blah or whatever one's bent)

-Stigmata-