NEED YOUR ADVICE, PLEASE

[always_14]

Well, never get too comfortable, right? Just when I thought things were going peachy, going great for my PMA, and thought I had a handle on things, I just had a pang that something was wrong. I made a big error and snooped...H gave me his email password this weekend (for something else) and I snooped last night. Found several emails to a female co-worker that indicated bad news. I'm gonna take this in several points, since I'm not coherent right now.

1) She is younger and works with H (not in same dept though).

2) Her emails were gushy, lots of ILYs, a V-day one that made reference to tickling and kissing. They BOTH used the term "cutie" to address each other. She refered herself as "girlfriend" in the note.

3) Hs email indicated that he was talking to a fun friend, called her a "friend" thanked her for caring, being a wonderful friend, and apologized for not calling her (she had written a pissy note that he had not called in a while)...hmmm, when I go to H with this complaint, he gets so MAD (but he used to get sad and try and I just got bitchier). He wrote in the end "luv ya so much!" which is not quite his romantic speak. He thanked her for being a wonderful friend. That he would let her know if he didn't want her in his life, that he invests a whole in her and she gets the very best that he can give and stated that he didn't contact his friends or parents much either...so he was giving his best.

3) I got MAD....did not think and went to his workplace. OK, here is where I go psycho and I should be kicked, but WTF, this is really absurd. He is not there, says he's on a "walk" He comes and meets me, we talked for 4 hours. He lied at first, again and again, denied everything. I finally coaxed it out of him, he lied about all the details until I pressed. He was mad that I kept the questions, felt humiliated, berated, controlled. All the usual stuff he hates about me.

4) Admitted to: No sex, kissed once, tickled once, all in car (not in homes or work), admitted he was "crazy" about her (explained this meant that he thought about her often and was excited to see her), said she brought him joy, happiness that was not in our R, the pain that was not in our R (mind you, when he had a previous FF, he said the same thing), said that she was fun to laugh with, hang with, that he loved her as a friend. Trusted her, she was nice. He said he liked the kiss, it was good. He said he thought about sex with her, and cannot admit that he would not have done anything (he was feeling guilty, so knew that denying this is stupid), admitted that he thought about going away for a weekend with her. Said he's not crazy about her anymore, it was fleeting, and nothing compared to what he felt for me. I was definately more important to him. He said he mostly saw her with others, admitted that he was at dinner with her and another friend when I called (not a walk). Admitted that he has lots of other friends (platonic) and mostly women I think (b/c we work with mostly women) and he admitted that he questioned himself, when he would stop these friendships (which I do not care if they are platonic) and devote himself to our R, wholeheartedly. So, it was good that he admitted that he had to give that up to really put for the love back in US. I asked why he would jeapordize work, and he said that he didn't think it was wrong, since nothing happened, all platonic, just affectionate (very odd for someone who is a workaholic and cares about work a lot), he honestly seemed stunned at the thought that this would look bad...he thought it was not all bad...I was just projecting onto a fantasy of him having an affair. Making him feel guilty for things he did not do. He said (after being questioned) that she initiated most of contact, kiss, tickling, etc. I trust him on this. I also trust him on the sex thing. I know H....when things go bad, he rolls with the ball that is tossed to him, but does not roll the ball himself. HER emails did not indicate sex at all, and he had months to do it, plenty of time, and he did not. Also, he did not book a weekend away with her (instead spent every one with me). He said he was feeling pained, lonely, in need of someone kind and understanding and fun. Just for laughs. He said they talked of nothing deep, usually went out for dinner after work or so (on his long nights at work), 1-2 times a week and did not really call otherwise (who knows that one, could be that he's lying to cover up). I asked this morning if he was in love with her, and he gave a huge huff and said no way. Just as a friend.

5) His feelings about it all: he felt VERY guilty, admitted he was ALL wrong. Also took the time to slam me on things I did to hurt him. Admitted that thinking about things I did to him (I was disrespectful, demanding, critical, etc) pained him so much he did not like to think about it. That made me scared b/c how can he heal? He said he just tried to forget it, he is past the anger. He was very ashamed, about the kiss, telling me he was crazy about her at a point, etc. That this had to happen. That he did this.

6) Odd: he really tried to lie about the depth of things (no ILY, no kiss), then came out with it. Honestly, when I questioned him, he looked like he was appeasing me, calming me down from thinking the worst, not for himself, but for the R. Kinda like "don't make it bad or it will break" Kinda funny coming from a guy who is mostly negative about our R making it. He said he wanted to protect me, maintain my innocence. After all this, he questioned why I wanted to be with him, said it was cool that I left him, and when I asked his feelings, he said he was still confused. I was surprised, b/c I thought he would say that he was out. But he still hung on. Why? B/c he loved me (what he said).

7) About me: Said that he could not care more for someone he just met as opposed to me. Said he loved me so much, and said it and meant it. Said that he thought he really tried (he did, but this just kinda sunk his efforts in a way), and he realized that it didn't seem like it. Said he still came home to me, still chose me. Said that he loved me, but sadly realized he was not IN LOVE with me (ugh, that line), wished that some days I was not home, lost the urge to be a husband and enthusiastic partner, want to be with me all the time happily, lost the urge to be a father...said that he saw friends who were pregnant and he instantly thought "I can't have kids with her, not the way things are..." Yeah, can't blame him for that one. Said he was in love with being single, that I did not have any competition from the woman, but from him.

I asked why the confusion. He said b/c he was no longer angry at me. And recently he saw that I was calm, strong, nice, patient and understanding. He felt that I actually wanted to be with him. Liked being with him, and said that he did not know that or feel that before. This all confused him...but he said he still didn't feel in love. Didn't know if he could. Tried to make himself, but could not. Thought it might be dead.

Several times I asked him to find his happiness, I will let go, he did not stand in my way, but he backed out. later I asked why, and he said that b/c he loved me, did not want to hurt me, and also b/c whenever he encountered me "wanting" something, he refused to give it (ie: I "wanted" him to leave me and he would not). He admitted that he saw a bad pattern in reacting to me in his old ways of withdrawing and turned off. Says sometimes he feels like lying when he is with me (saying he wants to be with me and he doesn't feel right). Feels that with this mess, things have gone too far. Does not want to live being mistrusted his whole life and does not want me to live mistrusting. Said he thought about me being happy with other men, and it made him happy, not mad, didn't mind it. Said that I deserved more.

8) My response: Well, initially, not nice. Demanding questions. Drilling. Overall, calm though. Then, I was nice. This morning and last night. I just spoke from the heart, just honest. What the hell do I have to lose now? I told him that it was sad, b/c when he said he was crazy about her, I wanted to get so mad, but I was sad b/c I knew that really, inside it all, he was still crazy about me too. I told him that I came there prepared to leave him, and really asked myself to do that, looked for clues (he said he was nice and made it easy for me to do so b/c he knew), but sadly, deep inside him, I saw that no matter how much emotion he lost for me, I know I still mattered most to him, he cared deeply for me, would never betray me sexually, that he loved me more than anyone else in the world, that he knew that I understood and cared for him most in the world and loved him deeply, and it saddened him. He nodded to all of this, thanked me for finally seeing this, and said he thought I was a wonderful person. He repeatedly said he tried so hard, planned a future for us in the middle of all this. We both agreed that it was so hard to just throw in the towel. That we both pushed each other so hard last night to leave the other and we didn't move (slept separately though). He said he just wanted things to go back to the beginning. He said he was so crazy about me then, that I could not understand how much he loved me and why he got married. He could forgive me of anything (at the time of M, he thought I had slept with a friend (LIE) but still married me--geez).

So, the official word is that he's still confused, but leaning WAY on the negative side. This morning, I apologized for being disrespectful, demanding and harsh when he shared his feelings and opened his heart. I said that I felt scared and insecure, and hurt and acted poorly. I hoped that he would open his heart again. I was calm, a little demanding in the beginning but calmed down a LOT....just said that I was hurt and kinda had a right to be. He also had a right to be mad at that. Then I went on to say that whatever happend to our M, we were together for just a short while or until death, that I wanted to stop this shamble of a M, for myself, be respectful, caring and kind. That;s all I want to remember for now. I told him I knew the man he was, that I trusted him, that I know that he gave me so much of his heart and I still occupied so much of it (In pain though), I trusted and believed in his love for me. I also said that I DID want him in my life...and that is not to pressure him, I am OK with D, but just so he knows that I always DID want him.

OK, I am rambling, this is too long, and I know it will bore so many. I don't know how I am feeling or what to do next. I ended on a really sweet note, very forgiving, understanding and calm. He cried a lot as he left for work, and said that he was sad, and guilty...feeling like so much of our old life was dead. Yes, it is....in many ways, thank goodness.

Advice???

[Becca1975]

Sweetie, I have no advice but ((((hugs)))).

[WCW]

I'm warped I see this as good communication. You both had a lot to say, and said it. Will it all turn out the way you would like it too? maybe, maybe not.

that I wanted to stop this shamble of a M, for myself, be respectful, caring and kind.

If that is really true, how you truly feel, you are on your way to a better life.

I don't have the long eloquent posts that you have such a gift for, sorry. Someone will be along with wisdom and knowledge. Until then, (((always)))

[StrongEnough]

Oh hun........I am so sorry to hear about this new development. I know how hard you have been trying, and this must seem like a slap in the face to you.

Like WCW, I really don't have a long post filled with words of wisdom for you. Just wanted you to know we are here for you.

All in all, you *seem* to be handling this very well. For that, I give you a ton of credit. Keep us updated.

(((((((((((((HUG)))))))))))))))))

~SE

[StrongEnough]

Always...........how are you doing today?

~SE

[always_14]

Hi All,

Thanks for the support. Yes, nothing much I can do. I walked around all day yesterday feeling hollow, horrible, like it was really the FIRST time I faced the reality of D. I also talked to C, who said 70% chance this won't work. Hmmm. Her advice was that I had to stop "trying" and just sit back, be me, take care of me, and still stay loving H. So, here are the facts and what I plan to stick to for the next month (I'm going on a 3-week trip that H and I were supposed to both go on, but we decided that it would be best if I went alone and he stayed--time alone).

Update: I'm doing pretty well. H came home last night, I had sent him an email saying that he was safe from R talk and talk of mess, since I know he feared that. I did ask if he needed space and wanted to separate, from his mention of being in love with being single and needing time for HIM. I wanted to do that for him...he said, "maybe we should...what do you think?" I am tired of guessing what he needs, C said he needs to figure things out for himself. I said "whatever you need" to which he asked we talk about it when home. At home, I asked if he wanted to talk, he said yes, but b/c he thought I wanted to, and I said no. We would go through our days giving our best, no expectations, enjoy time together as much as we could and we would know when we had to address things. He agreed, and was relieved, I think (HUGE 180 for me to put a stop to R talk). We had a nice night, and this morning I did my best to detach, give him space, be genuinly loving and kind and cheery. He was receptive...I laughed a lot and broke the ice that way. It helped. Really, it helped me b/c I really was happy, with ME. We talked of the weekend, my trip, financial stuff, etc, and it was weird.

The plan:
1) I am going to put the whole other girl thing out of my mind for now. It hurts too much, and it keeps me from my focus now, which is to get to a spot where I am calm. I KNOW that H did not sleep with her, but I don't know the extent of kissing, etc. Who cares. Done is done, he said his most honest feelings about it to me, and I thanked him for that (in an email) since it was HUGE to do that. He said he is not in love with her (C agreed). Deal with that later. Am I willing to live with it? Yes, I am. In all of this mess I got the answer to a deep question I guess I've always had with H....I think I could forgive him of anything. He would of me, I know, and has. That makes it clear that I don't need to get bent out of shape on details while I'm still emotional. I have other questions: can I take Hs new habit of casual lying? How do I trust?

2) Back off: No R talks, no past hurt/issues talks. no guilt trips (H was VERY sensitive to feeling like a failure, guilty on one hand, but mad that he was humiliated by my fury. He pointed out that he was patient with my misgivings, even when they caused him so much pain, so I know that what I do is really horrible, however "justified" and he requires a different approach. Sadness and calmness, no spite. He has a HORRIBLE trigger to how I react to things and my past behaviors. If it comes out in any way, he is really traumatized. I can understand.

3) Space to H: emotionally through no R talks, etc. Find ways to give space here and there. Seems he still needs to figure out what he wants, with the whole needing time for him and wanting to be single comments. So, I thought, what about being single can I do for him now? Space, no nagging, no expectations, etc.

4) No expectations, no snooping, no mistrust (well, expression of it), no demands to stop anything. I realize at this point, I asked again and again if there were anything going on and he lied, so my demands mean nothing. In fact, he stated that when I demandingly expect anything from him, he refuses to give it to me. So let it go. He stated that he knows what he needs to give to be committed to the M, he has tried a lot but not really put his whole self into it, so, he will only do so when he is ready. I can't do that for him. that is his decision to make. I have made the decision to stick with this until he can tell me that he is ready to committ, or that he does not want to.

4) Work on me: increase GAL, working out, work, out with friends, family contact, being happier, more like who I really am: confident, funny, outgoing, fun, committed. BUT, with a lot of the changes that I've made.

5) Stop all Love Busters and small efforts on the Emotional Needs for H. I won't go crazy here b/c I don't want to overwhelm him while he needs space. Just let him know that I care and still love him.

6) I just want this time to be nice, enjoyable for both of us, whatever happens. I want to be me. I realize that H still has a LOT of pain, anger, and horrible perceptions of me, mistrust that I can care for him and be nice. that is not who I am or want to be. I have spent too much time these last months making great changes, but the ones I did not make were to truly make H comfortable and safe from my anxiety, need for answers, expectations, pushing. I am backing off now, it's what he needs, I think. He will talk when he wants.

5) Trust in God. C said, reach in your gut and see what you feel. I did, and weirdly, yesterday afternoon, I had a wave of calm and hope, I have a feeling our stories are not yet through. Of course, I still have to prepare. I have known H for 14 years and this is the 3rd time we've gotten together. Each time, it seemed that we had a LONG time of not talking, or being apart, and we came back together, out of the blue. I never prayed that H would come back, only if it were meant to be. I ask the same now, and realize that much of this is really in God's hands (and I'm not a religious person). H has decisions he needs to make. I can only be me, detached, loving, respectful, caring, and happy to be with him at all. We both made HUGE mistakes...ones I wish I could take back now, more than anything. But, I can't. Will things change in Hs heart? Who knows. I can only do my best.

6) Be happy, enjoy life and me and time with H (however long that is). We are great friends, I have immense respect for him, and whatever time we have left together, I would like for it to be nice. I would like to know I did my best and was good to my dearest friend. I don't want to be a ball of emotions, up and down, to expect things, to always push the M healing. In our past relationships, when I gave H space, and we were apart, that was when he came back.

6) Questions: 1) What makes H stay now? (not hurt me, not want to be the one to end this, loves me...could he really be confused, or just waiting it out until I end it, or he can't take it anymore and ends it??). 2) Is his love really dead? When he says things like I am the only person he has ever deeply loved, the only one he will ever be married to, how deeply crazy he was for me, how important I still am to him, I am his best friend...and cries over the R still (maybe mourning??). 3) Has he left the M emotionally?

Fears: Of course, D. For lots of reasons. Maybe it stems out of regret, and that's a hard thing to live with. I miss a lot of things--I miss H and his love. I fear that when I leave for 3 weeks, it will give him the time to think that he does not want me, or finalize that. I have to go, and I feel that it's what's right in our cards, and i think H needs the space (C said it will be good). Another thing that fate seemed to have placed at us, and what will be will be.

OK, that's it! thanks for listening and I welcome your feedback. I am just trying to act out of my heart now, and out of wisdom.

[StrongEnough]

Always-

I don't believe your C gave you a % as to the chance of this working. I'm sorry I just don't agree with her. I don't think it's her place. However, she gave some good advice as to sitting back and taking care of you, while lovingly giving H his space.

I think everything you listed is great. And, just think, you are getting three weeks away for YOURSELF. Don't worry about H, what he's doing, thinking, saying or feeling. Take the time to worry about what YOU are doing, thinking, feeling and saying. Make those three weeks about Always getting time to sort herself out.

I do believe you are right as to what you posted on my thread. We both have to take back control of our lives and move forward and upward. Other people can join us, or stay behind. Either way, we both know these are things we have to do for ourselves.

You posted you wanted to work out more. Are you trying to lose weight? If you are, maybe we can have an accountability thing here. Post our weekly loss/gain, time spent exercising, etc. Are you interested?

As long as we both stay on the paths we have chosen for ourselves, you know as well as I that we will both be fine no matter what happens!!

~SE

[always_14]

Hi All,

Feeling GREAT today! Actually, this is the best I've felt through the whole process...hope it lasts long. Yesterday, I think a switch went off in my mind.

I had a great day at work, distracted, but good. I saw a dear friend and spent time laughing and talking. Talked with family and made plans for my trip. I guess it was like waking up from a dream to other people in your life and what you mean to them. I am valuable, funny, smart, caring and WANTED. Funny, I can see what H must have felt as well...all those times he felt rejected by my behavior. I felt strong, clear and finally felt I could shake off this horrible person that is insecure, panicked, mean, scared that I have been in our M. It's an unhealthy connection to H, and that's not good. This sounds arrogant, but I felt above being a demanding, insecure, frightened W, above being consumed by this mess of a M and the prospect of another woman. Really, I was not jealous and did not care when H came home late and went back to work. I have not demanded anything of him. I don't want anything that's not meant to be mine and anything I have to demand. Whatever will be will be. I'm just being ME and I know it knocks the hell out of anything/anyone else. So there.

So, the day gets weirder....the morning was great. I was in a great mood (with or without H). He was cheery too, really LOOKED at me and complimented me getting dressed and offered his advice (I flunk in fashion). I brushed it off and went off to have a fab day at work. That night, he called PROMPTLY at 6:30pm. I debated to answer the phone and did (I'm being ME, not playing hard to get). For the first time in months, he talked for more than 30 seconds of obligatory "when I'll be home and what I'm doing at work" (it was a lie anyway) call. Also unusual, he immediately asked about my day (I had a day-trip for work that I was excited about)--he remembered and cared to ask. We laughed, cracked jokes, shared the day, and I actually ended the conversation. He was caught a little off guard. He came home and was going to go to town for a haircut, and asked if I would come, and I said no. I was tired and went to bed early (seeing that I had 4 hrs sleep in the last 48 hellish hours). He came home, no haircut (closed), woke me up and said he had a gift for me...an iPod Nano with gear??!! Frankly, I was not thrilled, as it's an unusually nice gift for this time in our R...I felt uneasy about it. He had mentioned wanting to buy that for me weeks ago, but I thought nothing of it. He said it would be great for my workouts. I was so tired and a little delerious that I went right back to bed, and he said he had to go back to work for another hour (I was not wracked with tension as to what he was really doing--I did not care) and I went to bed. He came back home late and was a little bummed that I had not opened the gift and started playing with it. He engaged me about my day, we laughed and talked, all easy conversation. I gave a HUGE thank you for the gift...and for the second time in 5 months, he said ILY FIRST. WHAT??!! I said it back without blinking.

This morning, he was cheery, woke me up, dropped me off at the gym. He started to open the gift, and slyly asked if I was going to return it (actually, I thought about it, but did not want to hurt his feelings)...and I said NO. He is still dropping hints at me not getting too excited about the gift...I thanked him LOTS...said it was too much and he didn't have to do it. He was shy and said it was no big deal (is it because he got HER an iPod too, and now feels guilty?? I know he DID purchase her the cord for it). I played it cool this morning...he was being funny and I was cheery and comfortable as well.

Basically, I'm not TRYING. I'm just being ME. I like me, and if it's not good enough to fall back in love with, then I don't know what else to do. ME is not the OLD me either...I'm committed to being a better W and stick to the changes I made, but just not carrying the torch to making this work like I did before. He needs space and I need my dignity-frankly it's a HUGE burden off my back. I just want to have a good time each day. Frankly, I feel it's the most comfortable, cheery, conversational we've been in months.

I'm not reading much into it...but it's nice to not have tension, panic, always thinking of what I will say and how. Admittedly, there is a LOT to work through if this all works out...for now, I just want to lay it all down develop a healthy dynamic, if possible. No reason to attack issues if we're both still hurt, angry, mistrustful, not feeling in love.