My point is that maybe Chrome’s wife, like mine, is so focused on how she feels and HIS responsibility to fix her feelings, that she loses sight of HER responsibility for HIS feelings.
I don’t think either partner has a responsibility to fix anyone’s feelings but their own. It is manipulative to try and make another person fix your feelings. Your feelings are your own. Yes maybe it is true that someone’s actions made you feel upset but most likely unless the relationship has turned truly sour they did not intend that effect. It is important to let them know that they upset you and why, but it is also important not to sulk about it and not to try to get them to FIX it for you. If they continually do the same thing over and over that they KNOW you don’t like then yes you have a problem, but I don’t think any averagely sane person will do that to a partner. Especially a partner who is clear about what they want and who doesn’t make a big emotional drama out of something.
Feed him, admire him, make love to him.
Hah! If that was truly all it took then I would be very happily married. I have already told HP that I believe I am married to her H’s long lost twin. Believe me the only one of those three that I can be said to have fallen down on is admiring and now I come to think of it I used to do a lot of that early on only to have it knocked back the whole time. I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to sincerely compliment someone only to be told you are wrong over and over again. You’re gorgeous – no I’m not I’m ugly. You’ve done a fantastic job of that shelf/wall-papering/garden – no it’s crap I should’ve done blah blah. Having read DB I try to compliment H as much as possible but these days what used to come naturally feels false.
Efforts are made to address the hurts that girls feel. When this gets out of hand, you have the “princess” syndrome where girls feel they are entitled have their hurts soothed. As adults, if the man does not do so, the woman starts her manipulative games. Chome’s wife is doing this very thing – withdrawing, shutting down, making HIM feel guilty. My wife does the same thing too, as has every girl that I ever dated.
No effort was ever made in my house to address the hurts I felt as a little girl. My dad never once treated me like a princess. He loved me and we did stuff together but I was never his princess. H on the other hand must have been the “surrogate daughter” in his house - LOL, His emotional reactions are exactly those that most men complain of in women. Interestingly he cannot stand it when I ignore the kids’ drama queen antics when they don’t get their way.
As a result I am a very self-reliant person, I sometimes wonder if this is the problem in our R. H never gets a chance to treat me like a princess, I’m too busy fixing the house/car doing the yard work looking after the kids, cooking, cleaning, holding down a job, reacting to his manipulative mind-games and still have energy left over for sex! Meanwhile H is addicted to work/alcohol/cigarettes and has no time left over for me. Boo Hoo
Sorry feeling pitiful at the moment. Just went to get my hair coloured this morning and it came out terrible! Funnily enough I found S6 spouting the exact kind of words I say to him when he is making a big deal over something.
Here's an one liner I heard the other night by a comedienne - Jo Brand - who was at the height of her powers in the uber-feminist 80s.
Jo: I'm very happily married thank-you .... (wrily) my husband isn't
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Oh you silly man. I don't have to turn my "argument" on myself. I'm not hung up on the Men/Women Mars/Venus view of the world. The point I'm making to you is if you're not inherently interesting to the other person, then your needs aren't going to make you interesting to them. Hence the whole problem with the "meet my needs" approach to relationships. Man, woman, child, or Martian.... "meet my needs" isn't that interesting or appealing.
I cringe when I see men quoting Dr. Laura's book in this section of the BB's. Perhaps that's because I'm married to an LDH....he, and many other LDH's either on this BB, or married to HDW's on this BB simply do not fit into her framework in this book.
They are not typical of the men she's talking about....as other HDW's have said on this thread. "If that were true then....." I for one wouldn't be here.
I've read the book too....so please don't think I'm saying this without having done so. I'll admit though that I had a hard time reading a book written by a woman...that's supposed to be from a mans' perspective....but I tried to read past that. Although, I'll admit....a time or two I thought she might be hiding an appendage.
I do however realize there are many men on this BB that would fit into her framework....and if their W's are reading these threads....perhaps they should read her book.
Oh my god, you lovely woman, how ARE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!! So glad to hear things are continuing to go well for you! Life's good, health's good, etc., etc.?
Sorry, Cobra, had to say how-do to a dear BB friend...
Let me say that I understand your premises, I understand your point of view. I think that if a woman cannot accept you EXACTLY as you are (and vice versa)... you are asking for problems.
But I will stand by MY OPINION of the book that it is WAAAYYYYY oversimplified, and if it were that easy, NO ONE would be here.
I understand what you are wanting from your husband. In fact, I want the same thing from my wife. But there is a gender difference here. While you feel it is entirely reasonable to state what you want in a relationship (and I agree that you SHOULD do this) it does not mean that the man is comfortable with your asking, or that he is comfortable in asking for his needs (even if he should be). Whether that is right or wrong, that is how many men feel, myself included. And I think there are many “manly” men who feel the same way. But they also have a sense of “duty” drilled into them that they need to fix the wife’s feelings, so they are more than willing to listen to the wife’s complaints.
I do not usually sense this same obligation in women. Rather I feel women tend to diminish men’s feelings because they don’t think men don’t really know what they are feeling anyway, right? So not only do women ignore men’s feelings, but they convince themselves that men don’t feel and if they do feel, they are feeling the wrong thing and need to be taught otherwise. That “otherwise” becomes the woman’s perspective of emotional content. Men have their own perspective. That is all I am saying. And it doesn’t mean he loves you any less.
HP, you say you should be able to state what you want. Didn’t he also state what he wanted? But you didn’t like what you heard. Its just different from what you want, that’s all.
I know you ladies are just “communicating.” I am just “communicating” too. Why do you take my “communications” as an attack? I do not think I am putting a “spin” on things at all, unless a male point of view is a “spin” on the female point of view. GEL and HP, what I am hearing both you say is just what I am trying to “communicate” about, that is:
THAT HURTS! As a woman (not saying it's right) that translates to "you aren't worth the effort".
Women have no problem expressing this type of emotion. In fact, they are more than willing to do so. But don’t expect men to be that way, or that they should be that way. I think this is in large part what Schlessinger is saying. I also have no doubt her philosophy is hard for many women to swallow since it goes against the feminist model of women stating their needs and men having to fix those needs.
Did you read my earlier comments on “laziness” and people not wanting to move out of their comfort zone? Is this not another example of that – women being in the superior position of deciding what is right and what is wrong concerning how men should feel and express themselves? I would think most women would take my comments as a threat, but that doesn’t mean holding to their position is right. Men’s views are right too.
I am not trying to justify any actions of LD men on this board. I think an LD man has some major problems, be it physiological or psychological. I am trying to communicate the man’s point of view. And if that point of view has some validity (which I know varies from situation to situation) then does the fact that it is painful to women mean that I should not state it? I, like others, am looking to understand my spouse. I want her to understand me. If she does not try to see my perspective, we will not get along, plain and simple (but the fact that I have to see her perspective is a given).
Corri, I agree the book is a simplification of the many problems plaguing a marriage, but addressing the needs of men WILL go a long way to overcoming a large portion of those problems. And I am understanding that Schlessinger’s model depends on a functional, non-abusive, normal sex-drive man.
I do understand what you are saying, and for me...it's perhaps the wording and my interpretation of your wording that makes me feel you have a spin on things. Not saying, you aren't entitled to it though.
What you are saying on this thread, and on another...is a fundamental problem between the genders. Men are "programmed" one way...and so are we women. I truly do feel though that you are short-changing us women though when it comes to mens feelings.....("I feel women tend to diminish men’s feelings because they don’t think men don’t really know what they are feeling anyway, right? So not only do women ignore men’s feelings, but they convince themselves that men don’t feel and if they do feel, they are feeling the wrong thing and need to be taught otherwise.") this is the quote I'm speaking of.
Many times....all we are looking for is communication of some type from our man that there are feelings of some kind. I for one, knew my H had feelings towards me....I knew he had strong feelings towards me (intellectually) but he wouldn't let loving gestures out towards me. I chose to conciously recognize many of his efforts as displays of love for me, working his butt off to support us, doing things around the house inside/outside to keep things nice, conciously purchasing a house & land in order to provide me with something he knew I always wanted...horses. All of those things were done because he loves me & loves our son. If I didn't recognize that....I wouldn't still be here.
I definitely don't agree with the statement of ("women being in the superior position of deciding what is right and what is wrong concerning how men should feel and express themselves?") Speaking for myself...there is no right/wrong way for how my H should feel or express himself. HOWEVER, in any R if one person (or the other) doesn't express themselves in a manner that is meaningful to the other person, things will fall apart.
I think the difficulty that HP and I might have (not trying to speak for you HP jump in if I'm wrong here) is that you are trying to speak to us from the male perspective....but you are an HD male. Therefore, while some of what you say may apply to our H's.....some of it simply doesn't apply to the LD male.
In fact now that I think about it Cobra, that probably is the problem I have with some of your comments. I feel that you try to apply them to "men" in general. Perhaps not so much that you say you are....merely that I read it that way. The fact is....I'm with an LD male, he doesn't fit into the "general mold", neither does Honeypots' H. Sure, some of what you say will apply and believe me I do listen (even if I don't always agree with you).
Absolutely everyone is entitled to their opinion and no one persons' perspective is wrong.
Hi, Cobra, This is indeed an interesting thread. When I was in college back in those uber feminist 80s I bought into the feminist rhetoric, primarily because I thought that's what the ladies wanted. Well guess what? A lot of those peasant skirt-wearing feminists actually shared their beds with some guys who were not all that interested in such issues. One thing I will say for the feminist movement: without it we would not likely be having this discussion. We would have our problems, but not the discussion. But I suspect that feminism has had little impact on the day-to-day operation of many households. Women did not suddenly start being demanding in the 60s and 70s. In fact, I suspect that the stay-at-home moms and wives of previous eras had a more firm control of the household than do the working moms and wives of today. The personal may not have always been the political, but it has always been the personal. I have yet to meet a woman who is as comfortable being who she is than was my grandmother. I know for a fact she gave my grandpa he!! on the frequent occasions when he deserved it. I'm not too concerned about the excesses of feminism. They are out of sync with the realities of human existence and so will be challenged with every birth.
I too agree with many of Cobra and Dr Laura's points. However, it is a generalization. For many men on this board it must riing very true and I have known women like this. However, for a lot of the ladies on this board it is difficult to listen to because we would happily do just as Dr. Laura asks but our H' s aren't interested in that. What are they interested in? Sometimes it seems we can figure it out for a short window of time and sometimes not. I would love it if I had such a formula for my H.
Quote: While you feel it is entirely reasonable to state what you want in a relationship (and I agree that you SHOULD do this) it does not mean that the man is comfortable with your asking, or that he is comfortable in asking for his needs (even if he should be).
Then what should I do? You state that I should state my needs but be prepared for his discomfort with my asking. Ok, I'm not sure how that applies to men only, so I will ask you to clarify.
Quote: I do not usually sense this same obligation in women.
I agree with you here. However, it is absurd to say it is because women diminish men's feelings. Perhaps women DO diminish men's feelings, but men feeling "responsible" for how their ladies feel is in no way tied to what the woman does--that's the man feeling and HE owns it. Personally I think it is hard wired into men to be the provider, including their need to provide emotionally. I try very hard as a wife to not make my husband responsible for my happiness (or unhappiness) but I'm human and do find myself falling into this trap occasionally.
Quote: HP, you say you should be able to state what you want. Didn’t he also state what he wanted?
Fck No! Are you kidding me? ANY needs of his that I now meet have come from the toil of me figuring out the hard way what he wanted me to do. My husband berated and criticized me into keeping a spotless house. He spent most of last year apologizing for his behavior early on in our marriage. He was a frickin tyrant and he still shows shades of this when under stress--ask my kids if you think I'm exaggerating. His other needs, again, were discovered by trial and error. Me asking, straight up, did not net any useful information. He is a people pleaser and will stifle his own needs in order to appear pleasant.
Quote: Why do you take my “communications” as an attack?
You have GOT to be kidding here. Either you are passive aggressive (highly likely) or you are not intelligent (highly unlikely) but you cannot be serious. You call me a "spoiled princess" and other derogatory remarks and then wonder why I am not getting the gist of your "communication"? Get real! I have been 2x4'd by the best of them here on the bb but no one has sunk to the level of name calling that you do. Your point is entirely lost due to your hateful delivery. That's my honest feedback.
Quote: But don’t expect men to be that way, or that they should be that way.
I don't expect my man to display that kind of emotion. He hasn't so far in our marriage and I'd be surprised if he started. I'm okay with his level of emotion, but if he wants to have a loving wife he will have to start putting some effort into the romantic/sexy/couple part of our R.
Quote: Did you read my earlier comments on “laziness” and people not wanting to move out of their comfort zone? Is this not another example of that – women being in the superior position of deciding what is right and what is wrong concerning how men should feel and express themselves? I would think most women would take my comments as a threat, but that doesn’t mean holding to their position is right. Men’s views are right too.
I'm assuming, correct me if I'm wrong, that you are referring to me deciding that my husband's valentine's efforts are "not enough". Me as the superior woman, being judge and jury over him. I'm sure this hits some hot buttons in you, and it hits some in his, too. He came home Cobra-guns blazing last night at me. I don't give a sh*t. The fact is.........he knows me very well. I would have rather had nothing (with of course some advance notice that we were not doing anything for VD) than have him give me a "Mom" necklace and flowers a day late. So him holding to his position is right, eh? Hmmmmmmmmmm, not buyin it. He screwed up and I'm sure it bothers him to have me, his wife, point that out but tough luck. It is truly not that big of a deal and I would have laughed it off.....IF.....he was romantic or sexy or loving to me on other days. He is not. This is the one day of the year in which I am allowed to be hopeful of romance.
Quote: And if that point of view has some validity (which I know varies from situation to situation) then does the fact that it is painful to women mean that I should not state it?
Of course you can state it. And I'm glad that you do! I like hearing men's viewpoints. I would respectfully ask that you refrain from name calling and otherwise bashing my character. If you can't do that, then maybe you should stop replying to me.
I am sorry if I have in some way offended you or minimized your situation with your husbands. I do feel that you two are an outstanding example of what a supportive wife should be. But as I think about this issue, I see the negative bias of feminism is so much of our daily lives. Of course there are positives. At the time the movement arose, women were fed up and deserved equal rights, equal pay, etc. The very same can be said of affirmative action and civil rights. But I now agree with the rollback of affirmative action because it reached the point of becoming oppressive to the majority by the vocal minority.
I thought that I cannot relate to LD men, but perhaps I can. I recall a time in college when my live-in girlfriend told me she needed more sex. While I knew when had not had much sex at the time, I had not realized it had reached an extreme. And in thinking about that time, I know there must have been some mild depression or a feeling of emptiness involved. I was able to shift gears quickly because we were young, it was an easy time of life, and she offered a very loving, supportive relationship. I may not have been able to change so easily if there were problems and stress.
I believe now my period of low drive had roots in my FOO, intimacy issues, self esteem issues, poor modeling from parents, etc. I also know that having a strong identifiable purpose in life is critical. Merely surviving day to day in a mundane marriage with no dreams for the future other than making sure the kids survive to adulthood will sap the drive out of any man. This is not to say any woman here is causing that, in fact it could be all due to the man, but it will still affect him.
So let me propose a scenario that LD could be due to mild depression (I am ignoring physical problems). For me, I know that when I have been down and depressed, I am focusing on my plight, but it is a dysfunctional form of selfishness. Wallowing in self pity does no one any good. And if a person has poor self esteem, these thoughts can be worse. Couple this with a lack of purpose in life, or a belief that you are not capable of ever achieving your dreams, and further depression can set in.
And this is where feminism comes in. If the man is raise to minimize his feelings and feels responsibly for keeping his wife happy, or at least trying to fix her unhappiness, then he takes on an additional load. And even if he knows that he is not responsible for the feelings of others, he cannot help but be brought down by a wife complaining that her feelings are hurt. He instinctively wants to make her feel better, even if he knows he can’t. This inability diminishes his feeling of control over his world. Yet he is a man and men control their domain, they are the king of their castle, or at least other men are, just not him.
This is a server wound to the male ego. I believe the source of all these types of problems is in the FOO. And until this FOO can be identified, exorcised and healed, the man will continue to be dragged down by it. If the wife continues to put emphasis on her discontent, her need for more quality time, his shortcomings, she is just exacerbating and perpetuating this cycle of depression in the man.
What I see in Schlessinger’s method is a way to break this cycle. The logic of this is apparently lost on women, since they are trying to do what is best for the relationship. They have been trained that expressing their feeling in an open, honest way, and not holding things in is the way to emotional liberation. And for women it is. But it can be imprisonment for men.
So, there is my theory. What does everyone think about that?
Just went to get my hair coloured this morning and it came out terrible! Funnily enough I found S6 spouting the exact kind of words I say to him when he is making a big deal over something. 
Oh you silly man. I don't have to turn my "argument" on myself. I'm not hung up on the Men/Women Mars/Venus view of the world. The point I'm making to you is if you're not inherently interesting to the other person, then your needs aren't going to make you interesting to them. Hence the whole problem with the "meet my needs" approach to relationships. Man, woman, child, or Martian.... "meet my needs" isn't that interesting or appealing.