What if you could never have sex again?

[Stigmata]

Hi, MrAintGettinAny,

Thought I'd follow your sitch a bit. Interesting comments from others who know what it's like to feel the same frustrations. I'd heed their words; good people.

I'll be blunt. After reading some of your discoveries I think you could add: ...foralonglongtime to the end of your poster handle.

First. Your sexual R is officially dead. RIP. That paradigm has utterly imploded. You are now caught in the void between the now destroyed paradigm and the prospect of building a new paradigm with either your W, or, worst case, someone else.

The submarine is sinking fast. Only way out is blowing all the tanks and jettisoning all weight to try to get your M back to the surface. This tank and weight jettisoning I'm talking about here is any and all thoughts from you of sex and "gettinany." Forget about it. Having sex is the least of your/your W's problems right now.

You mentioned your wife said during this initial discussion that she has "low self image." So low, in fact, she says she feels "paralyzed?" She said this to you? If so, she is probably extremely depressed; and depression kill kill kills the libido. And the fact that she said this out loud makes it that much more significant. Cry for help though she doesn't know how to go about getting it right now. And the "what if" scenario she posed. She's been dealing with this in her head for a long time to go to the length of backing it up with such detailed examples (paralysis, you being a singer, soccer player etc.) so she could confront you with it.

There's an 800-pound gorilla somewhere in her background that, for some reason, she never felt comfortable enough to tell you about it and, also for some reason, it has resurfaced in her psyche over the last 5 years. Why won't she share--even if only a little bit? Does she think you will judge her re. the "incident?"

Very hard as I don't know your convo and EC dynamics. Could be she doesn't want you to judge her negatively or feels shame (ie, her low self image comment), she doesn't feel you truly listen to her and put your needs in the R always ahead of hers...any number of things on which I can't speculate.

"...Last night I had a lengthy discussion with a church leader that had been keeping up with our craziness. He said a few interesting things I thought I would share. First, my wife is going through a very unstable time. There are a lot of things she is having to mentally deal with and her past is so crazy that this is no surprise. Something somewhere must have happened that is really bad and she knows that if she goes to any counseling that this could resurface and that would just be too painful for her to deal with. It is far easier for her to repress and maintain than to deal with whatever it is. So the prospect of going to any kind of counseling is immediately nixed.

Next, This is a time I must come to grips with exactly how much I do love my wife. With all that she is mentally dealing with and without help, could mean that if I do really love my wife and want to keep my marriage intact I must love her completely.. unconditionally. Excepting that that means for a while, I may not get anything in return. I need to see this as though my wife had been raped. If something like that happened, I could not realistically expect my wife to bounce back and meet my sexual needs right away. She would need to heal and recover and who knows how long that could take. Even though the "incident" whatever it may be happened before we were married, and I don't know what it is, it is effecting her in the same way. So do I love me wife enough to go through this, understanding that may not get my needs taken care of. He thought this was not a problem that would take months to solve, it could take years."


-- Little confused. Did she tell this church leader of her "issue?" Sounds like it. He says it will take years, not months, to undo. So I assume he knows something you don't. And if she can tell him she can tell an IC or MC, frankly. Suppressing this kind of "paralyzing" self-hatred/loathing, thus enabling her depression to continue unchecked, will only end very badly for the whole family. She needs to spill...purge...unload...till it's all out in the open and the monster is killed by the sunlight.

About this choice she first posed to you. Worst case scenario too...lifetime of no sex? Will you stay with me? Pretty drastic as well as hopelessly unrealistic ssenario. It's not reality-based. Part of her probably knows it. She's testing you. She's testing your commitment to her, which, again, shows that she doesn't fully trust you not to judge her...accept her...stay with her even if she tells you the awful, awful truth. It might freak you out so much you'll run and she cannot handle that. Being rejected and left alone. She cannot handle that final blow to her already decimated sense of worth and self-image and right now she's not willing to take that risk of revealing the monster to you.

And the bluff I saw. Think HP and others saw it too from their comments. The "day I go to to an MC is the day the M will end." Then why all the histrionics over packing up and leaving and leaving that "I'm gone" message? See what she's doing? She really doesn't want the M to end b/c her words are incongruent with her actions. Her comment suggests she has no real intention of being the one to end the M.

Gotta call her bluff, friend. It's on you now. This is where you throw up a rock solid boundary. If you let her get away with her threats she will eventually lose all respect for you as a strong, assertive man who knows what he wants and is willing to fight for it (and, more importantly, her). And she will continue to threaten...and leave...and conflict avoid ad infinitum in an endless black loop.

"The day I go to an MC is the day our M will end." Your response? "Well, as far as I'm concerned, the M ended when you left me that message and took off. Message received. I won't live like this. If you won't go to a C or MC then you may as well start the paperwork because it shouts to me that you have zero interest in saving our M. You started this, so you're going to finish it."


"...I tell my wife all the time that there is soooooo much more that we can do, if we just stay caring and creative. It doesn't have to all be intercourse.
Sometimes it may be cuddling on the couch, sometimes it may be showering together, or sleeping naked together (to pull from another discussion). Heck,
I'd be ecstatic to sit in church and have my neck rubbed like I see other couples do, like CeMar mentioned. I"D LOVE THAT! But to my wife "that is all
sex" in her mind."

--Sigh. Another one fallen prey to verbals. "Telling her all the time." Sigh. Her defensive walls are so thick and soundproof your words are the last weapon on Earth that will do anything to break them down. Might as well be throwing pebbles at them. Stop talking. All she hears is Charlie Brown teacher "wah wah wahhhh."

You want to cuddle? Pull her to you on the couch. She gripes? "Shhhh, you smell good tonight and I like it. Relax. Here's a pillow. Put your head on my lap.." If she complies? Rub her head/hair. And don't turn it into sexual groping etc. If she thinks you're just trying to make a move on her? Blow it off. "Nah. Not in the mood anyway. Just thought you'd might appreciate a nice head rub." (believe me, if she continues to push away she's going to feel like a real a-hole after a comment like that.)

And why did you give up all of your control? If you want a neck rub grab her hand and put it on your neck. If she complains? Gets grouchy? Blow it off. "My necks' stiff. Your rubs feel good to me. Sheesh. I'm not asking you to jump my bones, for godsakes. Get over yourself already, babe." (then laugh and tease so she doesn't take it the wrong way) Stop waiting around for her to initiate anything; her black state of mind ain'tgonnagetchaanywhere. Lead. Be confident. Be assertive. Counter her pi$$ines with humor and positivity. She will mirror your frame of mind eventually. That's why it's vital for you to not project negativity.

And if you 2 really haven't touched etc. for a very long time you're going to have to take charge of this. Touch her as you walk by or reach for something. Put your hand on her lower back as you walk through crowds etc. Baby steps. Gotta start there with touch. It's why premie babies do so well in incubators when volunteers come into the ICU to "touch" and caress them. Proven fact. Amazing effect on recovery when compared to isolated babies who aren't regularly touched. That doesn't go away just because we age.

You just said you crave physical touch and she hasn't given it for the last 5 years. Obviously one of your love languages. Did you tell her this? And I don't mean in a sexual outcome way. And if she's unwilling to even do the very least of touchhing or kissing you, for godsakes, as a start then she needs to deal with her issues ASAP and sh!t or get off the pot in this M. There are 2 people here and it ain't all about one or the other griping/freezing out the other because their needs aren't being met or their internal issues resolved. That's called unfairly wasting the other person's life and acting like a spoiled child.

What you need to do:

Immediately drop all thoughts of sex as that is a very long way off.

AS MWD says, "believe half of what you see and nothing you hear." She tells you she will never have sex again? You should accept that? BS. Testing. A positive person who is happy with herself does not say these things. Get to the bottom of why she does not like herself to be willing to deny herself pleasure and hold herself and you in an ice block of total marital misery.

When she is happy with her life she will be having sex again.

Stop waiting around for her to lead. She won't. You want her to sit closer to you at the movies? Put your arm around her and pull her to you gently. If she protests? "Shhhhh...you don't want the other people to know I'm afraid of the dark do you?" Then laugh and blow her off. Believe me, it's very hard for an F to stay grouchy with a guy insistent on having a good time. Her negativity feeds off your negativity and anger. If you get rid of yours and replace it with humor, confidence, and positivity hers will starve and die. Trust me on this.

So that's a start. Stop being so passive. Forget the sex for now until she deals with her issues. And if MC is that important to you then you'd damned well better hold her to respect that boundary and she'd better start participating in trying to revive your M because her issues are way beyond the scope of the 2 of you and she needs a 3rd unbiased, solution-based professional.

And I would add maybe some antidepressants as well...

-Stigmata-

[HappyGiant]

thanks, Stigmata... Great Post! Lot's to think about there!

First an update to the whole situation. She called me with the "goodbye" message on the phone last Monday morning. That afternoon I finally got ahold of her on her cell phone and talked her into coming back home. She admitted she really had no clue where she was going to go that night, which to me, says she was just trying to get my attention.

While she was home, she still stayed at the other end of the house in the guest room. So I was left with the dilema, do I respect her space and hope that when she feels better she will come back (my sister's very adamant suggestion) or do I take this as another sign of attention getting.

I let it go one for a few more days, then I finally got sick of it. I said "what will it take to get you back sleeping in our room?! I love you, I hate it when you are not around me! My favrite thing to do each day is to crawl in bed next to you each night, and I don't sleep well when you aren't there. I am trying hard to respect your need for space, but I just want you back, so tell me what it will take!" And she said. "Just that. I needed to know that you missed me when I wasn't around that you needed me there". And with that, she was back in the bedroom. Still no sex, goodness, no. I know that is the last thing on her mind, but atleast she is back and that gives me some hope. Ever since, things have been pretty quiet. I have discovered that if I can just keep everything "surface" and about our day to day activities, then we get along fine. I pry into deeper issues, wants, needs, desires, goals, then it all falls apart. The trick is that I so want to get into the deeper levels, I may be a guy, but I need to feel loved just as much as anyone else. I am like that preemy baby in the ICU needing to be touched. I need some caring. But I am learning that I just have to live wihtout it, until I can get the 800 pound gorilla out of the back yard, I am on my own.

Now to add a level of complexity... Like I said it has been years since I had been touched. This last October, I kind of imploded. I have always considered myself to be an absolutely loyal, moral person. Never had an affair, never even been an option. But with my wife, she hated the topic of sex. Asked that I never bring it up. She never wanted to talk about it as she said when I did it only made her feel guilty and she refuses to do anything because she feels guilty, so talking was pointless anyway. So I had very real needs, I couldn't be touched for any reason.. anywhere.. I couldn't ask to be touched. I couldn't just "put her hands" somewhere", I couldn't communicate about my needs, Icouldn't do it myself as i believe that is wrong (and please do not derail this board over the pros and cons of masterbation... I don't believe in it, respect that) I had no where to go and my brain just went "boom".

I began thinking in war terminology... 5 years of diplomacy had failed.. the only way to SAVE the marriage, to get peace, was to drop a bomb. I then came up with a plan to get her attention. I put an add in the "casual encounters" section of a local website. In the add I put I didn't want to have sex, I just wanted to be touched. A No strings Attached deal. I knew if I found someone to do just that.. touch me.. I'd feel so guilty.. I'd be in confession in minutes, pleading for forgivess and in order to get it I would need to tell my wife. I got a reply on the ad, met up, got a backrub and another "place" touched and as I anticipated I felt so insanely guilty I followed through with the plan. I didn't want a full fledged affair. I needed to do JUST ENOUGH to make me feel guilty and then have something to get my wife's attention.

And attnetion it did get. The plan worked. I can't say that I am happy about what I did. I still feel very ashamed. It was something that was SOOOOOOO not me, it almost doesn't seem real thinking back on it now. But after 5 years of going no where, we have finally made progress. She is actually trying to listen more. But has touch or anything like that improved? Nope, not in the least.

So how does an act like this come across to someone with the kind of past that my wife has had? To someone who already has trust issues? A possilbe abusive past that she is still working to hide? Obviously not very well. That is why we continue to have good days and VERY BAD DAYS. But although we have a LOOOOOOOOONG way to go before there is going to be any intimacy, for the first time she is more recognzing of her affect on people.

I just have to learn to continue to go without... and hope I never implode again...

[Corri]

M:

This is going to sound harsh, but you have GOT to get OUT of your cess pool of self-pity. So you accept that sex is a long way off, yet you ask questions of people as to how to get that very thing... go back and read Stig's post to you again... or better yet, read this and MEMORIZE it:

And why did you give up all of your control? If you want a neck rub grab her hand and put it on your neck. If she complains? Gets grouchy? Blow it off. "My necks' stiff. Your rubs feel good to me. Sheesh. I'm not asking you to jump my bones, for godsakes. Get over yourself already, babe." (then laugh and tease so she doesn't take it the wrong way) Stop waiting around for her to initiate anything; her black state of mind ain'tgonnagetchaanywhere. Lead. Be confident. Be assertive. Counter her pi$$ines with humor and positivity. She will mirror your frame of mind eventually. That's why it's vital for you to not project negativity.

<Color and italics added in absence of a 2X4>

K? Do you comprehend his suggestions? AT ALL? If you need to be touched, or you need to cuddle... READ STIG'S POST.... ASK FOR IT. Unless it is in fact all about sex for you. I realize you are starving... so go Masturbate before you ask for a neck rub... don't know how he could get any clearer here....

Corri, who is pretty sure that Stig and Blackfoot were twins separated at birth...

[HappyGiant]

Wow, never really thought of myself as having "self-pity". That is interesting. Things to think about...

[Greeneyedlass]

Maraintgettinany,

Go back and read your post as if it were from someone else...you'll see that it reeks of self-pity. Self deprecating behavior and self-pity are things that will be sexual repellant to woman. Take a good look at yourself...it'll be surprising how much of it you'll notice that comes through in your own posts.

Listen to Corri, she's got a real point and Stig had some great advice for you.

GEL

[PitHarmon]

Relax Mraintgettingany, just change your name to mraintnevergettinganyfromthisgirl.

Accept it.

Your not whiny, just in denial. She is not sexual. Deal with it! I am in the same boat but a bit more realistic.

I was like you for a long time.. torturing myself with the " is it tonight? or maybe next week? or maybe sex will come when the moon is full?" BS. You know why she's mad? Because your trying to force her into doing something she does not want to do.

My wife used to threaton me with the same stuff.. I'll take the kids away yada yada. Having a pissed off husband was no treat for her either.

Stop killing yourself and your oppurtunity to raise your kids just because your horny. There is plenty of time to get sex when the kids are gone.

I am living up to all of my responsibilities.. and that includes providing my daughter an example of a nice loving attentive husband. My sons will learn how to treat a wife nicely.

When they go to college I am leaving her. If there is a big fight, I'll just tell them the reason. I have nothing to be embarrased of.

I Have spent the last 4 years and will spend the next 6 preparing for the blessed day I get a regular sex life again.

I have 6 years left and she has no idea. We had sex 6 months ago and recently told me " isn't it nice that we are so in tune now?" I almost fell on the floor laughing.

[Greeneyedlass]

PitHarmon,

Telling someone to just deal with it isn't helpful at all. People come to this BB looking for help and ideas.

If you choose to just deal with it and live the way you are until the time comes for you to leave, then that's your choice, you are entitled to it of course....but advising someone to do that on a "support" BB?! From the comment you left us about your W saying you two are "in tune"...I'm left with the impression she doesn't have a clue you are just biding your time.

GEL

[blackfoot]

PH

something in the way you are currently dealing with you W has caused her to "feel" differently about you.

I know that you are in a DONT GIVE A F frame of mind right now.

Since you have 6 years to go, why not experiment with some other ideas on what women will respond to.

You have allready done the most difficult part of losing your anger and dropping the rope completely.

I dont know how long you have been lurking, but to you I recommend getting a DB coach. There is a famously succesful and well respected man on this board who was plotting and planning the same thing you are. He figured WTF might as well do something while I am waiting.

If your anger and Resentment are so deep that you want to do this to 'pay her back ' for all the previous years, even if things were to improve, well honestly I understand. Dont agree, but I understand.

and lastly ditto GEL. If you dont have constructive criticism, or uplifting comments venting or even commisserating.

Shut your pie hole. Go plot your D somewhere else.

[PitHarmon]

Nope.. it is very helpful. Perhaps a bit painful for a bit, but liberating and pain free after he accepts it.

Lets face it, all the crying, and the "woe is me.. she won't play with my john thomas anymore" does no good.

Neither does telling him some tripe about being a self-pitying baby. He is going through the grieving process.. might as well move on to acceptance. This sex life is dead and all the seances in the world won't help him contact it.

She does not want sex. Done deal. Accept it and move on.

That is real world, grown up and mature help and ideas.

As far as my wife, I tried an experiment. I did not even mention sex.. thought I would see just how cold she was. After a year without her complaining once, I accepted and made my plan.

Forcing her into sex would be as cruel as making me go without it for life. No violence, anger or force, just mature acceptance.

Lighten up Mr aintgettinglain, the time will pass and with the proper planning acceptance can give you, you will be very attractive to the multitudes of divorced women.


Blackfoot.. I'm not resentful etc at all. Why the angry post? There are responsibilities when fathering children.. I choose to honor them with a good nature and not only no complaints but happiness. I only want some sex some day and in keeping with my personality.. I make a long term plan and see it through.

Such judgements also. I am living up to those responsibilities. My wife will be very well taken care of.

I see no problem with making sure I am taken care of also.

Peace to the celibate and the Horny both May they all get what they want!

[Stigmata]

Mr. AGA-

First of all. Let me preface this by saying I really do feel for your plight. I don't feel for your self-perceived helplessness however.


I've said before I HATE the whole LD, HD, ND labels for the simple reason that I hate labels, period. With someone who is labeled "LD" it gives them an easy weak-azzed out to give up and say, "hey, I'm an LD M/F so deal with it."

And there's no excuse for someone to M someone else, engage in a normal sex life for a few years, then shut down. And if he/she does, he/she damned well owes it to their SO to work things/issues out if the SO feels ripped off. End of story.

I'm not gonna pull any punches here. This is a great forum for that. I don't have to make/keep friends nor if I eviscerate someone's actions am I gonna lose myself a client in business.

You are projecting weakness all over the place in terms of your interactions with your W. No, maybe you don't feel you are a self-pitying person; maybe have a great work life and people like you.

But I am having a real problem with the following. Please don't let this stop you from spilling your guts on this forum. Everyone does it. But You're exactly right. You imploded. What the hell were you thinking?

And you're standing back observing your W like you're "The Boy in the Bubble" who can't be touched.

To Have and to Hold. Sickness and Health. Holding. Touching. Pretty basic part of any R.

How is it possible that your W can somehow justify not even wanting to "touch" you?! Holy crap! My head would explode if I had to put up with that.

Now, friend, this is where I have a serious serious problem. Please understand what you've done. Don't beat yourself up, though. I'm giving you a pass because you admitted your mental collapse.


"...I knew if I found someone to do just that.. touch me.. I'd feel so guilty.. I'd be in confession in minutes, pleading for forgivess and in order to get it I would need to tell my wife. I got a reply on the ad, met up, got a backrub and another "place" touched and as I anticipated I felt so insanely guilty I followed through with the plan. I didn't want a full fledged affair. I needed to do JUST ENOUGH to make me feel guilty and then have something to get my wife's attention.

And attnetion it did get. The plan worked. I can't say that I am happy about what I did. I still feel very ashamed. It was something that was SOOOOOOO not me, it almost doesn't seem real thinking back on it now. But after 5 years of going no where, we have finally made progress. She is actually trying to listen more. But has touch or anything like that improved? Nope, not in the least...."

-- Mr. AGA. I am really very sorry you felt you had to go this path. You were that desperate. Yikes.

For the love of God. Listen to me. Prostituting your values and self-respect in order to "feel guilty" in order to "get attention" is about the worst thing I can think of a man doing to gain the respect of a woman he loves.

What effort to set all of this up! Then turning yourself into a self-loathing masochist from the guilt and shame after the fact. Holy crap. I'm glad you came to your sense. This is about the last thing in the world that one should do to gain the admiration, love, respect, passion from his/her SO.

Next time, use all of that planning and energy away from passive aggressive schemings and bust through your W's touch issues or get the F out of there. And I am not one to leave someone who truly is in crisis and needs professional help-your W. It is not normal to not even want to touch a person you're M to.

She needs to spill her guts to you why she feels this way and what happened in the past. Otherwise, I'd suggest you take a very long tropical vacation and give her some space to deal with her issues/clouds.

Maybe a week or two of missing you will change her mind as to whether you're "touch worthy." OMG. Get her an appt. with a good massage therapist or something. They know how to touch. Maybe she'll make a connectionn that touching=good not naughty feeling.

Arg. Gotta stop. Head is spinning.

Start setting a firm boundary. Tell her if she doesn't seek help, open up about her issues, or give you a simple hand job as of on or before Valentine's Day then you'll take it that she has, again, ZERO interest in saving your M and is willing to waste away the rest of your lives in some kind of germ-free Boy in the Bubble existence. Might as well order her a bubble too while you're at it as you wind up sitting there helplessly staring at each other through the plastic.

You're a good guy, AGA. Don't take it personally. I'm just really PO'd you gave all of your power and control over to such an selfishly inconsiderate person. Sigh. Okay, better now.

-Stigmata-