First, thanks for all the birthday wishes. Honey, we ended up staying home and having a very nice real steak dinner. It was more, ahem, frugal than going out, and I actually enjoyed it much more than I would have liked going out. As your kids get older you’ll realize how nice it was just to have a nice dinner with W, my mother, and all of the kids actually there at the same time. It was nice being surrounded with the people I love most in the world – even if I did have to do the dishes afterward. It was the best thing they could have done for me.
Now back to work…
LFL, you asked if I am willing to live like this - with none of my needs being met. Yes, I am. It’s certainly not my preference, and I’ll continue to struggle to change the sitch. But when all is said and done, for reasons I’ve given several times, I am willing to accept it. As I’ve said several times over this past month, I’m just having a hard time with the NPD diagnosis.
I spent way too long doing nothing and hoping that things would get better. But we all know how well that works. Then I had the A and after that, finally got serious about fixing my M. I struggled mightily for several years and saw some major improvements in a couple of areas, but W just flat out refused to address others. I worked off and on, but really got seriously down to business about three years ago. I do think that I’ve changed myself for the better, but no real improvement in the M. I know he didn’t mean for it to affect me that way, but the NPD revelation was like a punch in the stomach. It’s just taken all of the wind out of my sails. I’m trying to drag myself up the path from feeling that the sitch is hopeless to feeling that knowing what I’m up against actually improves my chances of making progress. I’m not there yet, but I have a good grip on the scruff of my neck and I’m dragging for all I’m worth.
Heatherg, you said that I need to allow myself to have needs. You also said that it’s not just about sex, but about respect and kindness. You are absolutely right. I just don’t know how to change anything. I have needs and I consider them to be legitimate and just as important as W’s needs. What I don’t know is how I can do anything about it. As you said yourself, I can’t change W’s mind or her behavior. So what can I do?
I also admit to having a problem with this whole needs thing. Maybe I’m not placing enough value on myself, but I don’t see that I “need” much of anything, and that seriously weakens my position in trying to defend those “needs”. I can tell W that I need sex, but we both know that isn’t true. We didn’t have sex for the first eleven years of our M. Some people (like priests) are celibate for life. I don’t “need” sex. I know it and W knows it. Likewise, I can say that I need W to respect my wishes that she not bring any more dogs into our house. But she’s ignored that for at least twenty of our thirty years together. Twenty years makes it a little difficult to defend that as a “need”.
And NOP, I don’t mean to be obtuse, but I don’t see that the ‘how’ is clear at all. So much of the advice and so many of the suggestions I see on this board are just too non-specific to help someone as obtuse as I obviously am. I see things like, “set boundaries”, “enforce consequences”, and things like that, but I don’t know how to apply those things to real life. It’s easy to say, “Don’t let her treat you with disrespect” but it’s a whole different thing to try to do that. How do I stop her? She’s not confrontational, she simply ignores me. So how do I stop that? Going back to the dogs in the house, how do I stop her? I’ve already told you that I don’t have it in me to take them back to certain death at the pound. I like dogs too much to do that. I just don’t want to be overrun with them. So I tell her, “No more dogs” and she brings in another one – short of tossing it out, which we’ve already established that I can’t/won’t do, what can I do? The C tells me to take it to the pound. When I say that I can’t do that, he just shrugs and says that I’ll just have to live with it then. Is that really my only choice?
What about the talking issue? I’ve told you that she refuses to discuss issues that are important to me. I can’t make her talk, so how do I change that? Even if I was willing, I can’t take not talking to the pound. How about sex, the reason we’re all here? I’ve made it abundantly clear for many years that I consider sex to be a necessary and valuable part of M and that I consider our M an empty shell and a farce without it, but W still completely ignores that. I’ve told her that I don’t feel married or even emotionally connected, but that doesn’t spur her to any actions. And soliloquy is my only option since we’ve already established that there isn’t going to be any conversation about it. So what can I do?
I hope this doesn’t come off as argumentative. One of the problems with written communication is that it’s sometimes difficult to determine the tone in which things are presented. I’m not trying to argue here; just to point out that I really don’t know what to do. I’m sincerely and humbly asking for help. I don’t know how to get off of the train. It may be obvious to someone sitting in the station, but to a person who has spent his entire adult life on the train, it’s not so clear. Please help me.
Dang, Z-Bube, can I give a big ditto to what you said in that post.
General suggestions are hard to implement. Of course, I find myself in R convos with my wife giving her general suggestions sometimes Anyway, I like the specific stuff too, and I do feel lost as to what exactly to do next, how to get her to communicate. And sometimes it feels like I'm on one of those really fast European trains, and jumping off is a daunting perspective.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Hi ZB... Happy Birthday!!!!! I know you are trying really hard to come to a place of acceptance after hearing " the diagnosis"...but that is such a hard thing to do. I think it's good you are being realistic about the situation, and I do know how much work and energy you have put into the M, both of which make you feel like it's time to give up.
But let me tell you this... I have done work with terminal patients, and the one thing everyone needs is hope. In the past, we have talked about setting very small goals...goals that can be accomplished in a short time span, and are measurable and not vague. Perhaps you can come up with a small idea to focus on and keep you going to keep at bay those horrible feelings of despair.
You are being your own worse enemy. Your wife has no reason to respect your wishes or meet your needs. She suffers no consequences of her actions. Pretty much she knows you are not going to do anything about it. You don't want another dog may run through her mind. Along with well if I bring it home whats he gonna do about it nothing. So why not. Same with he wants to have sex but if I dont meet that need whats he gonna do about it nothing. So why should I.
What would you do if you told your daughter that she could not have a friend over and yet she still shows up with one in tow. You told your daughter she could not go to a party because there would be alcohol there and she still went and came home drunk. If your daughter knows you will do jack about it except talk to her. Odds are she will do what she wants. But if you take the keys to her car ground her for a month or so forth shes really gonna stop and think before she does if she wants to suffer the consequences.
You don't have to leave. But you can run a add in the paper for free dogs. You can not only say but enforce the fact that animal care is not coming out of household expenses that she is soley responsible for them since she choices to have them. You can also check state and local laws of how many animals a person is allowed with or with a a kennel license to how much space/acerage. Ie one to two horses to 5 acers where I live. None allowed with less then 5 acers. 4 domestic animals per household. If you find there are ordinances about this you can simply let her know it has been brought to your attention that you are in violation of this and that she needs to take this into consideration because it could cause the loss of all the animals and fines if she keeps exceeding these laws.
Or you can simple swallow the pill and take any new strays to the human society (not pound). And tell her from her on out every new animal she brings in you are going to remove this way. Though she has the right to bring them you also have the right to not be forced to live with them.
There are a million different things you can do about this Zub. You just have to decide to do it. They may not be comfortable but is living with a house full of unwanted animals anymore comfortable.
Simply put if I had a job and knew I could still get paid and not have to show up for work everyday because I would not get fired. Do you think I would not take advantage of this. You know there is a great sale at Kohls today and since nothing will happen to me if I don't show up Why not go to the sale instead.
Quote: ----------------------------------------------------- So how do I stop that? Going back to the dogs in the house, how do I stop her? I’ve already told you that I don’t have it in me to take them back to certain death at the pound. I like dogs too much to do that. I just don’t want to be overrun with them. So I tell her, “No more dogs” and she brings in another one – short of tossing it out, which we’ve already established that I can’t/won’t do, what can I do? The C tells me to take it to the pound. When I say that I can’t do that, he just shrugs and says that I’ll just have to live with it then. Is that really my only choice? -----------------------------------------------------
Since you are allowing yourself to be a doormat, then you are no longer a victim of your wife's NPD, you are a *willing participant*. You are a volunteer in her disease.
I can't tell you how to be a better doormat or how to make the pain more suitable for you.
I can tell you this, your chances of ever getting anything out of your marriage that you WANT such as sex, are just about zero. No one likes a doormat, especially someone with NPD.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I think that you are allowing the guilt of your past actions in the marriage rob you of a real life, and that you are hiding that reaction behind a veil of religiosity.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
ZB, so sorry you are dealing with NPD. My XH had many traits of someone with this personality disorder. One book I found very helpful was "loving the self-absorbed" by Nina Brown. Unfortunately, the message is that the normal strategies to increase intimacy and communication with someone like this don't work, in fact for your own mental well-being it's best to develop strategies for distancing yourself from the other's projections, withdrawing for emotional self-protection, and resetting your expectations to avoid continual disappointment. At least that was my take on it. In my case, I realized that I was already unconciously following some of these behavioral strategies. There is also an article I found on the internet by the same author which describes the usual inability of people with NPD to ever express true remorse (apologize) or gratitude.
The message I got from this book and other reading on NPD is that a mutual, balanced relationship with someone like this is unlikely to be possible. It was a contributing factor to my decision to end my marriage, although in my case there was a lot of deceit and destructive behavior as well. It seemed to me that if I stayed with him I would have to be continually aggressive about boundary setting and maintaining my emotional defenses, as well as constantly checking up on whether he was lying.
I couldn't face 30 years of that life. I beleive that I would be dead or in a mental hospital if I had not left. I am sure that you have good reasons for staying in your marriage, but I hope you aren't sacrificing yourself for someone who will never appreciate it. You have a lot to offer and you shouldn't waste it trying to fill a black hole, even if you choose to stay married.
First the dogs. I know it sounds like I’m arguing against myself, but your ideas have little chance of success. I saw two suggestions: running an ad and taking them to the SPCA/Humane Society. To the first, that’s already being done. W is involved in a rescue group. I can live with the dogs that are “our” dogs, the problem is all the rescues. These dogs are living with us, but they’re not ours. The group buys the food, the group pays the vet bills, and the group is actively marketing these dogs. There are ads in the paper, ads in the Greensheet, pictures in the pet stores, pictures on the website, links from petfinders.com, weekly adoption events, and who knows what else. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing I can do to find other homes for these dogs that isn’t already being done much more effectively than I could do it alone.
Number two, the Humane Society. Unfortunately, also not an option. Every no-kill shelter is full. That’s where W’s group gets most of the dogs they have – the SPCA and the Humane Society direct people to various rescue groups when they can’t take any more animals. I can’t take them there – they’re full and they won’t accept them. And now that I’m thinking about it, I just realized that I can’t even take them to the pound to be killed. There is no county pound and the city won’t accept animals unless you can prove that you live in town – which I don’t. My only options are to shoot them or dump them somewhere else.
And what about consequences for the lack of sex. You berate me for doing nothing about it, but what would I do? OK, so she thinks, “What’s he going to do about it – NOTHING.” So what do you suggest I do? What’s a reasonable consequence for not considering my needs? No sex, no car? You can have your cell phone back when I get laid? That may work for a drunk daughter, but it doesn’t seem appropriate for a selfish wife. Even so, I have to agree with CeMar on this one; I don’t want to ML with W if I have to blackmail her into it. I would rather just MB.
So once again, I agree in principle with the boundaries and consequences thing. I have no problem coming up with boundaries either. I just seem to have trouble coming up with consequences and being able to enforce them. Let’s forget the dogs, I can deal with that problem. Sex is the hard one, let’s talk about that. How about a fill in the blank question:
ZB wants to ML three or four times a week, but recognizing that you have a much lower libido, he is willing to content himself with once a week. Saturday morning seems to be your preferred time and that is quite acceptable to him. If this doesn’t start happening on a regular basis, then ___________________________________________________.
Quote: I think that you are allowing the guilt of your past actions in the marriage rob you of a real life, and that you are hiding that reaction behind a veil of religiosity.
I can’t dismiss that possibility out of hand, but I honestly don’t think that’s the case. What I did was wrong and destructive, but it was 16 years ago and I don’t think it has any bearing on the here and now. Religious and moral convictions were the primary driving force for getting back together, and they play in big part in my staying – but I don’t think they’re covering up guilt. As I was trying to say in the train analogy, many times it’s all but impossible to see yourself accurately, but I think I’m right here. I’ve done what you’ve recommended so many times: I’ve looked at this as a new M. The old M died with the A. I’m solely responsible for the A, but W played an equal part in the destruction of that M. I bear no more guilt than she does.
If you really believe that, would you mind expanding upon it? Why do you think that? What have I said that has led you to that conclusion? I don’t think you’re right, but I’m certainly willing to admit that you could be correct and I’m more than willing to explore it and possibly learn something.
Anyway, I like the specific stuff too, and I do feel lost as to what exactly to do next, how to get her to communicate. And sometimes it feels like I'm on one of those really fast European trains, and jumping off is a daunting perspective. 