On the one hand, I need to be careful how I express myself if I want my words to be taken seriously. On the other hand, I just put it out there. It's me, it's how I feel
Which of these hands is more goal oriented?
How we argue can be constructive or destructive. Venting, cursing, may be how you feel, but it's not a good tool with which to seek resolutions, right? It's just more ammo that's going to escalate matters.
It could very well be that even if you peaceably and reasonably sought a resolution, H is still going to hold to his line. You can only do what you can do, however, and either you have a partner that's willing to work with you on an equal basis or not.
I tell H that he was wrong to object last night and he asks me "Yeah, that was nice. Why would you even do that, why would you even go there?" We argue... I do understand that I have to change my reactions to his bait...
Yeah, well, telling someone that they're wrong usually puts them on a defensive position too, and they think they've got a point and then you both go about trying to reason with the other while also countering the other's premise. Works well with debate teams, but not so well with two people involved with each other. More's involved.
And "reactions"? Hoo boy, "act", don't "react". Count to ten. Think it through.
What I've gotten out of your interactions, in part, is that H sees you as 'always wanting things your way' for which he feels discounted, right or not, but do you ever get things to be your way? It seems when you speak of those times where you assert what you'd like to see happen, H goes about sabotaging your wishes/plans by his actions passive-aggressively.
This behavior suggests a lot of pent up frustration/resentment/anger he's holding in. However, I also get from your posts that a lot of that frustration/resentment/anger is his own creation, but for which he faults you; sees you as the cause, and doesn't really see his contribution to the dynamics between the two of you, nor cares to accept responsibility for any of it.
His thinking that the C won't help may be his way of sabotaging that avenue in order to keep the relationship status quo instead of having to potentially face himself, change himself and his modus operandi down the road, and/or face the real problems in the marriage.
But changing my reactions.....is that going to solve these problems?
It may solve some (doubtful, but who knows?), not others, but it sure may make the day-to-day living with the problems a bit easier by not exacerbating them into the all too familiar pattern that doesn't go anywhere.
Try putting things in a less offensive manner, make them about you. For example, instead of "I think you were wrong last night", drop that line and just go on to something like "I was thinking over last night's events and I thought/feel that it may be better if S/D..." Instead of ""H, we're either married or we're not. If we are, you have my everything including my support. If we're not, then fu@k you" may work better as "I feel that if indeed we are to work together as a married couple, that means we support one another freely. I know, for my part, one of the things that stops me is that I feel I don't have that kind of support from you."
How to interact sure is something the MC may be able to help you with better.
Again, even if you try the above suggestion, it could very well be H will still look to maneuver around, find blame, see it as you being all about you. Kind of a victim-like mentality, instead of really "hearing" you. Hey, you can only talk about you, right? You are the only person officially authorized to talk about you.
Despite whatever problems/issues/dysfunctional behavior you may have in the way your part in this relationship goes, you're still up against a partner who's somewhat dysfunctional himself; that's the circumstances you've signed on for, so to speak. Ultimately, if you do the work on your end, he's going to have to do the work on himself, or you're going to struggle.
From my perspective, can you really say that the power struggle is mine when all I'm asking for is
It's not a matter of if you're right or not or being reasonable or not, it's more a matter of that you both then engage in a power struggle type of interaction. You're going to have to both learn how to replace that pattern with something better to resolve issues with.
Which of these hands is more goal oriented?...How we argue can be constructive or destructive.
Point taken.
It could very well be that even if you peaceably and reasonably sought a resolution, H is still going to hold to his line. You can only do what you can do, however, and either you have a partner that's willing to work with you on an equal basis or not.
Most signs point to him not working with me on an equal basis. Like I said, I know I don't react well, but reactions come after the provokation. The issues are there first. For instance, with the bedtime. How do you constructively resolve that issue when one partner proposes that their child have an earlier bedtime, and the other partner says "No, it's not happening".
See, I can't seem to accept that kind of an answer. I don't understand it, I get angry and confused. Or the toystore incident. I proposed we go the next day or the next day or the next day. Just not right at the moment because it was D3's bedtime. And he said "We're going now, see ya". What is he really telling me in these instances? Probably that he is not willing to work with me as an equal, huh? I just cannot seem to accept these things for what they are because I can't understand it, I can't understand this mindset he has and I look for reasons and answers and justifications and blah blah blah when it's probably all in front of me between the lines....."Heather, I don't love you, I don't respect you, I don't care what your opinions are, I just want to be with my kids." Maybe sometimes things are just as simple as that. But because that means such grim options for me and my kids, I can't seem to accept that answer either. I am driving myself insane trying to fix a problem that isn't mine. By reacting to this crap and driving myself in circles, I actually create problems for myself in terms of my behavior that wouldn't otherwise even be there!
Yeah, well, telling someone that they're wrong usually puts them on a defensive position too, and they think they've got a point and then you both go about trying to reason with the other while also countering the other's premise.
Again point taken. How do you validate BS?
"act", don't "react". Count to ten. Think it through.
I know, I know. I need to put my rubber band back on.
What I've gotten out of your interactions, in part, is that H sees you as 'always wanting things your way' for which he feels discounted, right or not, but do you ever get things to be your way? It seems when you speak of those times where you assert what you'd like to see happen, H goes about sabotaging your wishes/plans by his actions passive-aggressively.
If there is a true disagreement, no I will not get my way, at least not in the short term. For instance counseling. I wanted counseling and he told me absolutely not, never. Well, now he's agree to go. Did I get my way? Yeah I guess, but a year and a half later. Get my point? After a year and a half, it's become his decision now, not necessarily related to something I wanted. Sometimes, if he's on the fence about something I can get my way. Like with the kids' preschool. Originally he wanted a different school than I did. I encouraged the school I wanted, stating all my reasons. The kids went to the school I wanted, not because he was 'giving me my way' but because I swayed his opinion about the school.
I will respond more in a bit.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
. How do you constructively resolve that issue when one partner proposes that their child have an earlier bedtime, and the other partner says "No, it's not happening". I can't seem to accept that kind of an answer. I don't understand it, I get angry and confused.
Heather, your H stonewalls, discounts, minimizes, shifts blame. Your C calls it "intimacy avoider", I would call it "conflict avoider", as he does everything, even argue with you, but not actually work on the problem at hand, right? Sure, it's frustrating. And that's just one of his issues. He's also controlling, disrespectful, selfish, emotionally and sometimes physically abusive. He's also passive-aggressive at times and has an agenda of sabotaging you. These are some of his problems. It's difficult if not downright impossible to have a successful relationship with such a person. You are going to get angry, confused, resentful and frustrated. You already went looking for an "answer" by way of having an affair, yet you realized, I think, that what you were really looking for wasn't another person per se, but certain things that you wanted in a relationship that aren't in yours.
You probably, more than him, are the "emotional caretaker" of the relationship. You're telling him what is needed, and he doesn't heed it.
If those things never come to be, and H has a lot to do with being the one creating those things, then you either have to accept this kind of relationship or not.
How do you validate BS?
It's not that you validate BS, you validate the other person to whom what looks like BS to you (and it may be BS in truth), as a way of letting them know you understand, rather than argue against it. It helps make them feel understood, it can help makes them feel connected rather than on another side of a chasm. It's not about condoning or agreeing or substantiating their thinking as being yours. It can be used to see things through their eyes, so as to form a common path towards which then a resolution can be stepped to in harmony, rather than a two camp approach, with each of you being in a separate camp with a line between the two.
What's important is that validation, as well as several other components, are more constructive tools in inter dynamics than the tools you've been using. Whether H responds or not, whether his stuff is BS or not, you can know that you're seeking and applying the better ways of working on the relationship. That's all you can do.
But because that means such grim options for me and my kids, I can't seem to accept that answer either.
Because it's unpleasant to consider that the reality may very well be that this relationship is not the relationship for you.
A little while back you had the viewpoint that you guys would go into counseling, and after a reasonable time, you would re-evaluate progress. That means accepting whatever that re-evaluation may bring. Well, you guys have just started on that path, and maybe it's too soon to determine results, but I see H already dismissing any help counseling may provide, and have yet to see any significant baby steps toward change.
I suggested letting go of a lot of the arguments for a while just so H has nothing to fight against and also, more importantly, that after you state your view but don't argue it, to see if he of his own accord, now freed from fighting about it and thus resisting it, mulls it over instead and decides for himself to enact your view. Let's see what happens next.
Quote: I am driving myself insane trying to fix a problem that isn't mine
Something sounds different about H since the day of his appointment, based only on what I've read in your thread.
You need a break from one another. Whatever is bugging him is not your problem, but it sounds like he's taking it out on you. Your reactions aren't helping you feel any better.
When will the two of you see MC together?
Thanks,
Joe
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
Or the toy store incident. I proposed we go the next day or the next day or the next day. Just not right at the moment because it was D3's bedtime. And he said "We're going now, see ya".
Heather, coupling this with an earlier statement that H as a bunch of toys stored in the attic, make me think that H was going to the toy store as much for himself as for exchanging S5's toy. The act that H plays to the desires and wants of D5 makes H look to S5 like more of a friend than a parent. And of course S5 will like a friend who wants to go to the toy store at 8PM rather than someone who wants to go home and participate in D3's bedtime routine. It just seems to me that H is not emotionally mature enough to be a parent.
When I talked with the DB counselor, she said that she had a theory that MLC'ers think more like teens than adults b/c they process information with the amygdula part of the brain which is deals more on an emotional level than a reasoning level. I know that when WAW talks about D15 & D13 its always about what WAW needs from them, not what DD's need from their mother. For a long time I tried to be the parent to WAW and I made myself crazy. Now I try to protect DD's from her nonsense as much as possible, but I let them see and experience some her $#!+ sometimes too. At 5 & 3 I'm not sure kid's at that age can see that their dad is not acting like a dad. At 13 & 15, they can.
"Heather, I don't love you, I don't respect you, I don't care what your opinions are, I just want to be with my kids."
Surprise! I have actually heard some of these words. Way back in Sep, 2004, WAW & I went to 2 MC sessions. The C told me that DD's were my "hook, use your hook." At first I was aghast, I would neveruse DD's by withholding them from WAW, but I use them to stay in contact w/WAW. Maybe thru DD's we can reconcile, I don't know.
You and H obviously have a power struggle going on, as has been pointed out. Now you cannot control or change what H says or thinks or do.
The only power you have is how you choose to handle this. I do think NYS is correct to say that you need to VALIDATE your H. And this is tough to learn. Validation does not have to mean agreement.
Also, I think that you are trying to control your H in a sense because your arguements with him are an attempt to get him to view things your way and do things your way. I am not saying your way is wrong, but simply you cannot control H and get him to come to your side on things in the manner you are attempting.
Rather than have all these issues you are trying to resolve at one time, I think you do need to do some 180's and really start focusing on YOURSELF and your words and your actions. Not H's.
I think some key goals for you right now would include detaching from his BS answers, and behaviors so that you don't feel overwhelmed by your emotions and reactive. You do control how you feel, how you view this and how you respond. H has no control of that. So what if he provokes it? The response you have is completely your own.
Work on validation. Work on learning how to set boundaries in an effective way that respects you, your kids and H. Work on learning how to control your emotions and not have them control you. Work on detaching.
Your goal has been to save the M. That means you need to change the dynamics of the communication within the M. This is the key, not resolving each of these individual issues. Those can be worked on when the two of you learn new methods of interaction.
You are getting sucked into the drama and power struggle. You don't have to. Learn these things. Become healthy. This will serve you and your kids best whether the outcome is D or M.
Hey Joe, I'm really glad you decided to stick around for a while. I would miss you otherwise!
You need a break from one another. Whatever is bugging him is not your problem, but it sounds like he's taking it out on you. Your reactions aren't helping you feel any better.
Yeah, maybe things were becoming too normal for the 'intimacy avoider'
When will the two of you see MC together?
Monday at 4pm is the magical hour. What kinds of things do you think I should have in the back of my mind. I am hoping to make this first session mostly about H, I'm really going to try validating what he says because I know that in front of our C, he will state things in the fairest most acceptable manner possible. I want to reward that. I don't know if the C plans to steer the session, or if she's gonna start out asking us to speak about something in particular.
H and I fight so much over they symptoms, I'm not really sure I even know what all the issues are. Even the drinking is just a symptom. I need to spend some time thinking about the real hard core stuff underneath it all.
It just seems to me that H is not emotionally mature enough to be a parent.
It is this concept that makes the idea of custody an absolute nightmare. I know my kids lover their Daddy and I know Daddy loves them. But with his parenting style, I believe the kids would be better off sleeping every single weeknight at my house. H would be free to pick them up for dinner some nights, but they would need to be back at my house to go to sleep. That would cause a major rift and a fight that I don't even think I have the strength to fight.
make me think that H was going to the toy store as much for himself as for exchanging S5's toy.
Jabez, that's very perceptive of you! I snidely offered up that suggestion, but of course it was denied. Again, the way I say things automatically invalidates them to H. But what I'm saying still may very well be true. I think he fights to the death because of the way I say things, but he thinks about it later and it seems that he often decides I'm right at least to a degree because I will see little changes.
A good thing to learn really is changing how I come across and what I allow to come out of my mouth. I'm working on what I've termed my 'poker face'. It's the easiest way for me to remind myself to keep everything in check. Better to be bland for a while than over reactive.
At 5 & 3 I'm not sure kid's at that age can see that their dad is not acting like a dad. At 13 & 15, they can.
The difference between your WAW and your daughters in this case though is that Mom wants things that are different than your daughters want. It is easier for the daughters to find fault with that. In my case, H wants the SAME things my kids want. I think in this case, he will always be perceived as the "best parent" by my kids.
I do think NYS is correct to say that you need to VALIDATE your H. And this is tough to learn. Validation does not have to mean agreement.
I really need to spend some time thinking about validation and what it means to me. I'm an accountant and to validate something means 'it checks out, the numbers tie, you can rely on this data'. Well, my H's numbers are a little off kilter to say the least, and I certainly can't rely on his BS, ahem, I mean data. So, I need to come up with another definition for validation so that I can understand it better and figure out how to apply it in my situation. For me, just listening and not saying ANYthing, would probably be validation just because we so rarely listen to one another. Maybe I'll start there. Hmm, sounds familiar to me though. This goal smacks of something I tried and gave up on apparently without realizing it. Time to get back to it.
I think you do need to do some 180's and really start focusing on YOURSELF and your words and your actions. Not H's.
I will, I think I'm going to start journaling on this topic alone. Entries for a while can only be about ME.
Thanks for the encouragement!
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
H just called and he has to cancel our MC session b/c he has to go out to a remote place for work today and probably won't even be back in time to pick up the kids. So, MC is postponed. I'm very disappointed. I guess I will still go, maybe after meeting H, C can give me some meaningful advice.
We had a horrible, horrible weekend. Nothing I do is right or good. We fought about everything. The more we fight, the more I see that it's pointless. I know I'm not telling you guys anything that you haven't already told me. Every time we argue, I see more and more that my H will fight to the death to 'prove' that his needs/opinions are more just or more considerate or more sane or whatever. And I see that I defend my points and there goes the merry go round that neither of us can get off once it gets going.
He has said we need to start the repair of our marriage by being nice to one another. But it seems, he simply wants ME to be nice to HIM.
I don't know guys, I just don't know. My boss asked me to clear my schedule Thursday evening if possible so that I could go to dinner with him and a few others in order to entertain an out of town guest, here primarily to give me guidance on the direction of my department given the changing industry. I am an integral part of his visit. I mentioned to H that I would need to go to dinner Thurs and he flipped his lid. It took me totally by surprise, I had absolutely no idea he would react like that. He gave me just about every reason in the book why it was wrong for me to go. It doesn't matter. The bottom line is, I can't say no. This is my JOB. And I have a gravy job that I LOVE. I rarely, rarely have to work overtime and if I do, it's like an hour. I take time off to do whatever I want, appts, etc. I take hour and a half lunches. I come in somewhere between 8-8:30. My boss is a gem and he allows me to monitor my own time. Dinner to entertain an out of town guest is a small thing to ask in my opinion. But my H just about went through the roof. Telling me that it's out of line for him to ask that, that I cheated on him and now I'm flauting it in his face, that I should explain to my boss why I can't go, you name it.
I feel like I'm backed into a corner and just can't get out.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Heather...I wish I had something for you. Just wanted you to know I'm listening. There are two sets of rules, aren't there? I'm sure that he didn't even consider the parallel between him cancelling the counseling session because he had to work and you having to go to dinner because you have to work. He can cancel on you, but don't you dare think about doing the same to him.
I'm sorry, probably throwing fuel on the fire, but I just wanted you to know that I stopped by and I'm thinking of you. B
Each experience in life has formed me, become part of me, made me stronger.
I've been so full of bad advice lately I've avoided posting for the most part. I guess my best advice is probably: Listen to Joe!
But since I'm posting now it will probably come as no surprise that I'm ready to burst forth with a little of that bad advice.
You guys are just in a terribly defensive pattern. Maybe MC can help, but even if it does I don't think it will help very quickly. So the question to me is, how can you get some space and clarity and start giving each other the benefit of the doubt again? How do change things so every comment and suggestion isn't dissected in search of negative tone or negative side effects?
Because this is obviously wearing you down, and it has been for some time. It's great to suggest you change your reactions and how you deal with H. A lot of suggestions like that would probably work. But you're having a very hard time implementing new reactions in the face of what you're getting from him and personally, I don't blame you. You've tried hard and you've dealt with an awful lot. That's going to take a toll on anybody's positive spirit.
So I say hang in there as long as you can, but don't be afraid of a constructive separation. That might give both of you time to clear your heads and see the other in a new light. It's unbelievable to me that after all this time, H still throws your kissing back at you when he's feeling insecure and needs some leverage. He's got issues (no surprise).
You can't keep banging your head against a wall forever. You're gonna get more and more frustrated. So when the time is right, please take steps to protect yourself from getting into a mindset that would allow you to take out those frustrations in an unhealthy way. Respect yourself and don't subject yourself to more than you have to.
I know you worry that we on the board don't see your faults in this. But I'll tell you what, if a lot of your M problems are your fault, then a constructive separation may be even more important, because if you're contributing to a lot of this, you need the time to clear your head and get better. It would be nice if you guys could still go to MC even if you do separate.
One of Michele's key principles is to do something different then monitor results. You've tried lots of things over the course of the last eight months and haven't gotten good results yet. Whatever you do, don't maintain the status quo. Try something, anything.
Good luck!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
