Quote: BUT, in order for the 'new' relationship to work, THEY also have to not NEED to get their energy (self esteem) from US or we are doomed to repeat this
frank, someone that I talk to told me tonight that she believes this is WHY my H. is having an affair...because he has issues that drive him to want to be with a needy woman that wants to be saved. My own strength is actually a turnoff, in a sense. H. has such low self esteem, he needs to be with a woman who is desperate right now. That's why he has become so addicted to their R.
If he doesn't change this within himself I don't think he will ever come back to our marriage. It's very sad for me to have to realize this, but it's true. So your counselor is right.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
I've been reading your thread and your posts on TJ's thread. Your description and insight is dead on and a rare thing these days on the board. Way too many people that are here for popularity contest. They have there head up their a$$ and need to just back away from writing their fluff and concentrate on getting a life and practicing the DR principles.
Kudos to you for putting into words the thought process that I try and maintain these days. When my PMA slips I read your post and know that I'm fighting the good fight, doing the right thing, and allowing things to play out as they will. Thanks for your insights and I wish you luck in your situation.
BTW, my wife and I lived in Glendale from '91-'99. Went to Church in Pasadena. I worked in Hollywood, she in Agoura Hills. Been to Pelican's? I love and miss So Cal.
Well, I was hesitating on whether to post this today because it may mean nothing or it may mean something. So, here goes.
W was kind of 'cold' to me this morning. I assumed because of previous nites exchange where I came home and she was in the family room talking on phone to OM. When I figured that out I told her to 'take that into your room please, I don't want your affair taking place in the common areas of the house.'
I know she doesn't like when I talk to her that way but I was pissed. I later told her that I just felt it was rude and she agreed. After all, we are 'getting divorced' and she is having an affair and I am living in the house.
So.... I asked her what was wrong this morning, she said 'nothing'. I waited a moment then she said 'WHY, do we have to go for another walk so we can 'talk'?? I said 'nope, I just thought there was something wrong' and I left the room.
Later... 5:30 PM we went to a joint session with our counselor - first one since bomb - to talk about our two daughters and their issues. Both had been to see her last week and she was going to tell us what we should be doing to help them through all this.
C tells us some of their concerns, and other things I won't include here since they are not relevant right now. There were some tears from W and I about our D10's sadness and fears.
Then ... C says: let's talk a little bit about you two, and how you are coping with the situation. I know you have issues you want to resolve so you can be friendly and good co-parents. So she asks us each to think of something that we need resolved that may have happened 14 years ago, which is right about the time our first daughter was born.
W tells how she felt abandoned emotionally by me. We were in dire financial straits and I had to work 16 hour days to recover from it. Also, our first child was a surprise who had come along at a time in our life where I wasn't ready to give up the fun times we were having together. So of course I had similar issues - she abandoned me emotionally and focused on being 'super mom'.
C gets us to realize that we were being forced to go from the 'in love' phase to the 'real love and responsibility' phase of life and weren't prepared. As time went on we did not reconnect properly.
C made the point that regardless, we truly did love each other then and were coping with adversity and change as best we could. It just wasn't love that WE EACH thought it SHOULD be. After enough 'dissapointment' each of us felt unwanted by the other.
C asked about the more recent issues, about how W is dealing with the 'extramarital activity' and how will she respond to the kids if they find out and other stuff.
Then she asks 'what can your husband do now to make it easier for you two to live in the same house during this process?. W brings up last nites incident and says 'well, I know I was wrong and he was right but he acted like my High School Principal when he scolded me'. She also said 'he did the same thing when I came back from my trip to connecticut (to see OM). Asking me questions about my trip and I felt the same way'.
C says 'well what would you rather he did?' W says "I needed a couple days to process what had happened on the trip because I was feeling so guilty" (guilty? she seemed like she was in a cloud then, she was 'in love').
So I said I'll remember to be more gentle and restrained when I set boundaries or talk about issues.
C asks W some other questions, culminating in W stating 'I just gave up on him, he would never change'.
C then says in a very quiet voice "Honey, HAVE you given up on Frank?". Silent pause. W says with tears "I just want something different in my life".
C says "Do you mean you want your life to be different or you want your self to be different?" W says "my self".
I said nothing through all this and didn't look at W because I know I intimidate her. But I was so shocked, bewildered whatever. I though for sure I would hear 'Yes, I gave up a long time ago but couldn't leave' because that is what she has been telling me over and over.
C turned to me and asked what I would like to see different. I said I would like it if she was consistent in her attitude towards me. Basically either don't like me or do like me. Hug me if you want to, be nice to me, smile, just be consistent. I added "don't worry, I have NO illusions about what you mean when you act that way, giving me a hug. I know it is you just being friendly". She said would do this.
Whew. Quite a segway from talking about the kids to touching on a core issue in our life - how we really didn't know how to love each other without the 'in love' feeling. And her inability to tell C, who she knows she can't lie to, that she has given up on me.
Well, we left, went home, life as usual. She distanced herself. However, D10 decided to be extra needy that nite and finally W came to me asking what WE should do. I told her how I have been making sure to spend 15 minutes or so with D10 at least every other day or whenever she comes into my room needing me. During that time I hold her, but I ALSO talk to her about WHY she is sad, what is she afraid of? I say 'Are you afraid Mom or Dad will leave you?' or other things like that. I 'give her permission' to talk about her divorce fears. W doesn't do that, she holds her and cuddles but never brings up D unless the kids do, which they don't do. She was grateful for the advice.
I'll tell you I sure felt good then because I felt we were communicationg about our kids like real adults and working together, rather than her whining and me fixing.
This morning was 'the usual' until we got on some topic and I disagreed with her (in a friendly way) and she punched me in the arm (over the years this has been a fun/flirty way she has expressed frustration with me). I reply 'oh, there's the violence again!' and she chases me playfully slapping me on the head saying 'here's some more!'.
Later, she comes to talk to me and is back to 'solemn' or 'respectful' mode.
Here is another weird thing I noticed the past couple days that I have NO idea what it means to her.
She has this 18 x 24 inch cloth that has a picture of two 'mermaid' people in a passionate embrace. For those who don't remember, her 'OM' is her spiritual 'soulmate' from another life, in which they were whales. This picture has been hanging in her closet for a couple weeks now and I am sure it has some symbolic meaning to her.
She also had this pretty plastic rose with a little bear on it that OM gave her when she went to see him 2 weeks ago. It had been sitting on her shelf where all of her spiritual 'knick knacks' are. Perhaps a 'symbol of their love...'.
A day or so ago I walked by her room and saw the cloth picture spread out on the foot of her bed, very neatly. I wondered why that was, figured it was so she could look at it and dream about sex with OM. It was odd.
This morning I needed to get something from the closet in her room and I happened to notice that the picture wasn't on the wall any more. It wasn't on the bed either like it had been the day before. Of course I was very curious and kind of looked around wondering where it was. It wasn't anywhere to be found. How odd. GUESS FOLLOWS: I did notice that this morning she had some packages she had to take to the post office, so maybe she sent it to OM for xmas. Maybe.
While I was looking around for the picture I also noticed that the 'rose' was gone from the 'spiritual stuff' shelf. Even odder. I didn't see it on her desk or anywhere else I had looked for the picture. Then I looked in the trash basket by her desk. There it was. In the trash.
WOW...whatever you are paying this C Frank...keep on paying her/him...I think you are definitely getting your money's worth...Blown away by the quick actions on her part in such a short time. Evidently your C hit some things to the core for both of you and really knew how to reach inside her.
Even the fact that you realized that you intimidate your W. How brave of you to realize this and to act accordingly. A big hug to you for that. We women are truly tender creatures.
Okay, so have you read Mars and Venus? You're getting very close here and obviously your DBing and C sessions are showing positive movement. I think that M/V would be excellent read actually for both of you.
I loved the fact that she flirted with you by punching your shoulder, like the old days...and your response and then her follow up!!! I think that was perfect...keep up the good work.
Quote: While I was looking around for the picture I also noticed that the 'rose' was gone from the 'spiritual stuff' shelf. Even odder. I didn't see it on her desk or anywhere else I had looked for the picture. Then I looked in the trash basket by her desk. There it was. In the trash.
Ooh...she threw out a memento from OM? That's pretty big, frank. I agree with Sassy...keep up the counseling sessions; they are helping your wife (and you) get to the bottom of this. I see a lot of hope here, and it was great to hear that she playfully punched your arm like old times. You're doing great.
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
Quote: Ooh...she threw out a memento from OM? That's pretty big, frank.
Well, let me be the devils advocate for all the things I said earlier so I can keep myself grounded, and detached.
The 'rose' was a plastic one that you'd get somewhere fancy and it had the 'rose' part filled with a liquid, so it probably glowed in the dark when it was bought. You know the type? Maybe she just thought it was junk by now?
Yes, our counselor is really good. W is still hung up on OM and still telling everyone she is 'separated / divorcing' so it's hard to say what she will do. She talked to him 2 hours on wednesday, 1hr in the afternoon, 1hr late (around 10 pm) which is 1 AM EST. Actually, that's more than usual.
She didn't talk to him at all thursday after our Counseling. I was surprised as she was upset and went for one of her 'drives' where she gets into her emotions. (The girls were very emotional at bedtime so she was having to bear the brunt of it) Maybe OM wasn't up late...
I am still maintaining a 'Lovingly disconnected' attitude, keeping my indifference to her actions. I realize I got real hopeful today and I hurt myself doing it because she is still 'the same'. One visit to the counselor doesn't mean anything has changed. One punch in the arm doesn't mean she's in love with me again. It is what it is.
I'll see our counselor on tuesday alone so I can get a reading from her as to what this all means. I see her Wednesday with the kids and thursday with W.
Anyway, I NEED to maintain my disconnect / slight anger or I will become needy again. Be fun and light hearted but still work under the assumption that she wants a Divorce and I am going to be her best friend.
Quote: WOW...whatever you are paying this C Frank...keep on paying her/him...I think you are definitely getting your money's worth...Blown away by the quick actions on her part in such a short time. Evidently your C hit some things to the core for both of you and really knew how to reach inside her.
She is great. She says that her job is to 'help lift up fallen angels'. She is spiritual, and real world at the same time. No nonsense either. And full of loving when she is working with you. When I first told her how hurt my Daughters were about a month ago, she actually cried a little with me. I was surprised. She is an angel.
Quote: Okay, so have you read Mars and Venus? You're getting very close here and obviously your DBing and C sessions are showing positive movement. I think that M/V would be excellent read actually for both of you.
Yes, many times. Remember that W is getting a divorce. She isn't going to read anything.
Quote: I loved the fact that she flirted with you by punching your shoulder, like the old days...and your response and then her follow up!!! I think that was perfect.
Well, to be devils advocate, she did that a few weeks ago too. It's just that she hasn't done anything since seeing OM. The fact that she said she 'felt guilty' was a real surprise to me. Like I said, she told ME it was 'a feeling that could not be put in words' when she saw him. Why feel guilty then?
Quote: The 'rose' was a plastic one that you'd get somewhere fancy and it had the 'rose' part filled with a liquid, so it probably glowed in the dark when it was bought. You know the type? Maybe she just thought it was junk by now?
You obviously are very well grounded...because this coming from a woman was a big tado...or at least if it had been me in your Ws shoes, this would have been a huge tado...I still have momentos that my first love (and mind you he was NOT my soulmate!!) gave me over 20yrs ago. Not everything of course, but I do have a memory box.
Quote: I still have momentos that my first love (and mind you he was NOT my soulmate!!) gave me over 20yrs ago. Not everything of course, but I do have a memory box.
Yeah, I can see where you are coming from. She is like that too. I don't see why she tossed it.
I decided to read her e-mail, haven't for a week or so because I didn't want to get hurt. Now I can take it better. It's also a good way to get a reading of her affair and her feelings towards me as a result.
So...
She still says she is 'in love' to him. She went to a party last nite at a friends without me, drank a little too much wine, and sent him an email saying she was upset because she feels like she has been given a bad deal - she is glad she left me because it makes her feel like she is living her life, but is unhappy because she is 'in love' with him but can't tell anybody and wants to 'shout it from the rooftops'. (why not tell?)
That would explain why she was angry when she came home from the party, went to her room, and then sat by her computer for 1/2 hour - waiting to see if he would be online (1 am EST). Then she sent the e-mail.
She was still unhappy this morning. Went for her exercise walk and didn't take her phone to call him. I would have thought that would be a priority this morning given her unhappiness. She can call him some other time today since she knows weekends are free.
His e-mails are still poems, e-cards and other stuff he gets off the web because he belongs to a mail list at 'newfunpages.com' and gets emailed daily links to this stuff. She doesn't know this of course and probably thinks he looks for this stuff on his own. He rarely says he loves her in e-mails but I'm sure he does in Instant Messenger and on the phone. Otherwise she wouldn't continue, would she?
He NEVER signs his emails 'love, OM' just 'OM'. Guess we are all different in the way we express feelings. Or he's just full of himself and doesn't feel he has to.
In one e-mail she said that she was looking for him on line that nite but he was probably asleep or 'with Ex GF'. He broke up with her the same time W did me. Remember that they were each others catalyst for changing their unhappy lives. She still lives with him and he sometimes says how she 'is constantly following me' or 'trying to check on my phone calls and e-mail'. Don't know why she hasn't moved out, maybe she has no money and nowhere to go? They have lived together 3 years. It's been 2 months since breakup so I guess she is just hanging on, hoping to fix things. But since it sounds like she doesn't DB it ain't gonna work. Any comments DB'ers?
Why W would think he was 'with ex GF' that nite is interesting. She goes out of her way to not be 'with me'. It's not like we hang out or anything. We don't even watch TV together any more.
In one earlier note she talks about how it 'figures' that her luck is such that she would fall in love with a 'kept man'. She says she hopes that he really was intending on breaking up with (Now Ex) GF when she met him in Maui and that she was the catalyst. But she is angry that she has to be in love with a man who is 'unavailable' to her. But he "loves her".
Also saw that they are planning a meet in mid february, UGH! She sent him a link to flights so he could fly to California. Haven't seen any replies from him saying it has been scheduled though, no comments about being excited to come see her, no itinerary via e-mail or anything. But he could have said stuff like that via IM or phone so it's not an issue but he usually replies to her e-mails in some way. But then there is plenty of time between now and then so there is no urgency for him to set it up. I saw in her scheduler she blocked out a WEEK in february for him.
She complained that her vibrator isn't doing it for her any more and she needs him. Also needs to take pictures of him because she only has one from Maui to look at. How sad for her that she has to suffer so. At least if she was 'suffering' with me she could get laid.
My counselor has predicted that she would see him at least one more time. One thing that is interesting is that the evidence still shows that SHE seems to be the one doing the most work in keeping this affair alive and has the strongest 'feelings'. Sure, he responds with the ILYs and stuff but she is the one who drives it, who is arranging the trip, who says the most 'ILYs' in e-mail. Of course these are my interpretations as a man, I don't know what other women expect or get from their men in their affairs. Any comments?
She said in an e-mail that she is saving $$$ so she can see him by not calling him as often. But I pay for the cell phone and we have lots of minutes plus free nights and weekends. I told her she was using up some of our rollover minutes BUT WHY WOULD SHE SAY THIS TO HIM ANYWAY? Is he not calling her? Is she worried that if she doesn't call him more he will feel like she isn't interested? It's an odd thing to say or do. I mean even 10 minute calls once a day are no problem.
She has a sprig of mistletoe taped to her computer monitor, to 'honor' him and says she put a special heart ornament on the tree for him. I found it and it is just a gold heart on the backside of the tree. How insulting to corrupt the family tree with her affair like that. At first I was offended reading that, but now I am so so sad for her that she thinks this is OK to do. Where is her sense of respect for the family's integrity and sacred spaces? Who is this woman?
Given all this evidence of her 'undying love' for him, I STILL don't see why she tossed the rose. It is the only physical item she has that he has given her.
One good thing, she hasn't written anything negative about me in a while other that to reaffirm that leaving me was the right thing to do. I guess my DB'ing has helped there.
So, where am I at? Well, it hurt of course to see she is still obsessed with OM. I guess the positives of seeing the counselor, of getting an unsolicited hug and the fun interactions gave me hope that things were going bad in the affair and she was opening up to me.
But it has only been 8 weeks since she came back from Maui, 2 weeks since she had her weekend with OM. Really not enough time for anything to change. And, even though it hurts, I also can see it is a little easier for me to recover this time. I am getting better at it.
Counselor predicted she would try to see him soon, and that it would be 3 months before she started to lose the excitment of the affair. She called it going 'retrograde', backwards to feelings she once had and re-living them. Then she will reach a bottom and start to move forward to the present reality of her family and her life. No guarantee that it will really happen though. It all depends on her.
I was hopeful it would take less time based on the recent events with her, but she has withdrawn again. The more I think about it though, I feel that it will be longer because she want's this so bad she will hold on as long as he feeds here the ILY's in return. And she keeps convincing herself that her life is better without me.
And if she does see him for a week in february it will put me more into the 'she is a whore' mentality and I will want her less. I just don't take infidelity very well, even though we are GETTING A DIVORCE so it shouldn't matter, right? But it just tears me up to know she thinks about him sexually and is depressed because she can't be with him, but could care less about me. Nothing I did in the past is as wrong as what she is doing now. I NEVER even thought about having an affair, and in fact I avoided talking to women alone because I thought it was inappropriate.
So, the wind is out of my sails again. I was hopeful for a few days that she was questioning our relationship but it's unrealistic right now to think anything is really different. This is all a process and it will take some time to play out one way or another.
One thing my counselor said and I see on the boards is the faster I change and stay detached and loving, the more time I can cut out of this process. It really does seem like this affair is doomed eventually because HE isn't willing to move or do anything decisive to make it into something more, and SHE is not willing to leave her kids either. At least so far.
By me changing faster the process moves faster - either she comes towards me faster or I move away from her faster and go on with life without her. Today the 'without her' seems more appealing.
I hope she suffers a lot with this situation with OM. Not being able to have what she thinks she wants, what she thinks she deserves. Not being able to be with him when she wants. Oh boo hoo hoo she is such a victim here, being 'in love' with someone she can't be with. She got this situation by LEAVING our marriage like a coward rather than FIGHT for it, fight for ME, fight for our family. That's what we all get when we make the easy choices in life instead of the hard ones.
So I guess I will go for a walk this morning, think about how much I don't like her being like this and go back to my detachment from her. I'll let her approach me again rather than be so outgoing and nice like I was. And when she is nice again, I will remind myself that it's not significant as long as OM is in the picture.
She is an adultress with no remorse or apparent guilt. Maybe when she becomes a real person again I can like her, right now I don't even want to love her. At least I'm back to reality again instead of in MY cloud.
I'm a good father, a good friend, and an honorable man with integrity, caring, strength, wisdom, inner love, light and strength. I lost that for a long time because I was afraid to be that person but now I am no longer lost.
She left a man that she didn't help or give positive energy to when I was no longer able to give it to her. I'm so sorry I didn't see that and stayed weak for as long as I did, but what I DID see was that she was getting her identity and self esteem from me and I didn't like that about her. She doesn't see that she is also doing the same thing with OM who is just as much a problem child as she is.
Please say a prayer for us that OM stays selfish and indecisive and she sees that in him sooner rather than later. And that we at least have a good christmas, for the kids sake.
I don't even know what to say, except you should apply for sainthood. There is no way I could tolerate that gold ornament on the tree. The FAMILY tree. She should hang it in her room instead. Or I could tell you where I REALLY think it should go...but I'm a nice girl. The mistletoe taped to the computer is weird, frank. Your wife is doing some strange things. I read about the mermaid towel, too, and how she and OM believe they were whales in a former life. frank, are you listening to this?? What does your counselor say about this to your wife? I've read some infidelity stories before but this is really taking the cake. It does seem that this won't last due to the geographical separation, and that is in your favor. I will keep praying for you and your family, and that OM stays selfish. Maybe that trip next year will fall apart before it even happens. Hang in there...
Most of us really marry only once. First love endures, even unto our dying day. And we never really divorce.
