Now He's still looking at clothes and all of a sudden, he throws down the clothes he has and says "That's it, we're leaving."
Yup, everything was festering inside him, which he permitted to fester inside him, which he kept seeing as how he's the victim in all of it, which angered him, and this is how he chose to act on that.
He grabs all of the coats and is still holding D2 and holding S5's hand and starts heading for the escalator, D2 crying very loudly still. H practically falls down the escalator with D2 in his arms and S5 holding his hand, no joke. I about had a heart attack and said "H, let me take the coats!" He did not even acknowledge that I was speaking. He walks out of the mall... He says "I don't need any help from *you*" or something like that and throws my coat at my feet.
You're dealing with a very inconsiderate, rude, selfish, disrespectful, temperamental, immature man, a man who does not care how his actions affect his loved ones nor cares about displaying his temper and its consequences for all to see, and I know you know that.
On my worst day, it was the day that K had the movers over and everything of hers was on the truck, except for a couple of small boxes, and it was only minutes before she was to leave forever, and I broke down in anger and hurt which had been pent up for weeks while she was packing, which I had not been showing her, and threw a box outside, but not at her.
Throughout my relationship with her, however, pre knowledge of her EA/PA, I never threw anything. I never stormed out on her. I could never let her struggle with bags, always would take the heavier load, the most bags. I used to joke about how I'm the "mule". One just doesn't act like that with their loved ones. It's incomprehensible to me. Sure there were times I'd get irritated or irked and either I'd try to let it slide and joke about it, but still willingly go along with it, or try to "fix" things by offering solutions, but never be defiant and so mean. I can't relate to your H.
He says "NO, it isn't the reason we came to the mall."
Right... so what? A reason to be at the mall was added. If you take his argument to its logical conclusion, you didn't go to the mall for the kids to poop there, either. What a flimsy excuse he makes to justify himself, as if his actions could really be justified.
He said... "you left *yourself* at the mall."
He starts trying to tell me "my mistake"
Shifting the blame to you; seeing himself as the "victim" and faultless, is his standard course. He doesn't take responsibility.
he called me back a little later and said "Ok, I'm calm now. Would you like me to come back and get you?"
You don't even get a real apology, huh? And asking if you want him to come fetch you instead of stepping up to the plate and telling you he'll come get you... what a guy. Got a strong hunch he'll blame you... that since you said "no, I've made other plans and my brother's coming to get me", you're gonna hear how it was H offered but it was YOU who turned him down or some such BS argument, when the matter is really about how he should not have behaved that temperamental way and should not have run off intentionally leaving you behind.
He left you at the mall before he told you he was leaving?
Oh no, he told me he was leaving.
(HopeFloats) I'd like to know how he explained his behavior to your kids...leaving mommy at the mall.
Yeah me too now that you mention it. I'm not sure what he told them, but surely they asked about me. When my brother was dropping me off last night, we passed H's Dad. He had been at the house. I'm sure he asked where I was. I really wonder what H said. I'm sure he just said "She's at dinner w/ her brother." Do you think I should ask him what he told the kids and his father?
(VJ)I mean, you wanted a holiday picture of your kids - so what? You were willing to accomodate him, but he was not at all willing to compromise to give you what you wanted.
I know, that's what I was thinking. He doesn't like the holiday backgrounds, he thinks they're stupid and they sort of are. But only if you let yourself analyze the pictures to that extent, ya know? The point is, the picture says "It's Christmas time and look at my angels!" Not to mention, that I am paying for everything, I even would have paid for the pictures he wanted. Geez.
(VJ) That kind of man usually likes everyone to think he's perfect.
You are so right about that. He is very much into "appearances", where he is concerned.
(Bud) I'm so glad your brother moved to town.
Ditto!!
(Bud) He knows he acted like an a$$ and I'll bet he'll be fairly pleasant and somewhat accomodating to you, at least for a time.
Actually, quite the contrary. He did not lift a finger to help me get the kids ready for pictures, which I expected. He wasn't getting the pictures he wanted, so....I really knew that would be the case and was prepared for no help from him. I took the kids to the mall, H followed behind b/c he wasn't ready yet. He was going to tag along and be a pain in the a@@, but he wasn't about to help. So, we get there and he won't give me his opinion on what picture to get, he just sits over in the waiting area with S5 on his lap. We leave and he takes both kids hands and they are in a row on the escalator, leaving me behind. Out of earshot of the kids, I told him he was evil. I know I shouldn't have, but I honestly thought I was going to explode if I didn't say *some*thing! We went to McDonald's and the kids played and I made small talk and acted like nothing much had occurred. So, no, he hasn't been accomodating at all.
In the end, H didn't control you. He ran off, you stayed then went and had dinner with your brother. You weren't just H's victim, waiting for him to come back and rescue you. He made his decision, you made yours and you weren't victimized by it. You've changed the dynamic in your R at least a little bit, at least for a little while.
Yeah, I think so too.
Do you see why it isn't so easy to "just be me" when he is home? Didn't I just say yesterday that consideration for his feelings just isn't a priority for me right now? So, although I was willing to do the pictures that he wanted, I was not going to take the lead on it and I was not going to give up on the picture that I wanted either. And look what happens!! Ugh!!
It would be better, of course, if you could have done the whole thing calmly and neutrally.
I thought about this, I actually thought about it while it was happening. I decided that anger has a place in certain situations and this should reasonably be one of them. I consciously decided not to hold it back...my H left me and I decided that it was reasonable to expect in that situation that I would be angry. I didn't go off the deep end or call him names. But I was angry and I *wanted* him to know it. When he called me back to tell me he was calm, then I was neutral. And I politely declined his offer to return.
(Bud) But the more you can calmly make the point to him that you're Heather, you're a parent just like he is, and you're a full partner in your M, the better off you'll be.
I agree. In most cases neutral is the way to go, with no retaliation efforts either. That was why I was calm this morning and made small talk at McDonalds. I was angry last night, but today is a new day and I got the pictures I wanted. Even when I told him he was evil, I said it more to underline the fact that he had just acted like a total a@@. But I didn't get upset about it. Just pointed it out.
(NY)Yup, everything was festering inside him, which he permitted to fester inside him, which he kept seeing as how he's the victim in all of it, which angered him, and this is how he chose to act on that.
And it *was* getting a crazy there toward the end, with the kids having to use the bathroom twice all the way across the store and D2 taking off and screaming and crying. The shopping day was clearly over and I don't take responsibility for that. It was nerve wracking for me too. I was just floored at the way H left me behind and ignored me when I said 'Let me take the coats' and threw my jacket at me....I just kept thinking 'how did this become my fault?'
(NY) You don't even get a real apology, huh? Nope. I've said on previous posts that the number of times H has apologized to me I could probably count on one hand. He rarely says the words "I'm sorry". RARELY. I wouldn't expect this time to be any different. But yet, I'm the one who hasn't been sorry enough....
(NY)you're gonna hear how it was H offered but it was YOU who turned him down or some such BS argument,
Yeah, you're probably right. We haven't discussed last night at all and at this point I don't foresee bringing it up again. But if it did come up, he would no doubt justify it. Even after he calmly called back, there was a calmer exchange between us, but he still blamed me. It just remained calm because I didn't react. He said I could have offered to take D2 out to the car so that he could continue getting S5's clothes. I said "Ok you're right, I could have offered...you also could have *asked* me to do that. I didn't do too much to rescue the situation but I don't think I did anything to make it any worse either. Besides, at that point you were already angry and mean towards me saying that we were 'doing our own things tomorrow'." I told him nothing that happened with the kids in the store was his fault and that there were things we both could have done differently in the mall to have made the situation better. I said that the family pics were a great idea but that if he wanted that we should have planned the WHOLE day to get clothes. He said "And then you just take off and leave me with the kids." I said "H, I am not the one that took off...you actually are the one that threw the clothes down and sprinted out of the mall." He said "I'm talking about when you asked me if I wanted you to help me get the kids out to the truck. Duh, of course I needed your help. When you ask like that what am I supposed to say?!" I said "Um, how about....yes? But you didn't say yes, you threw my coat at me and said something mean. I'll admit, I wasn't very inclined to help you at that point." Then I basically said I would see him in a few hours and he said "whatever" and hung up.
So, yeah, he has a ton of reasons why this was my fault.
Just between me and you guys, I don't want to send out a family portrait. I just don't. In the other family portraits we have, you can see our wedding rings very clearly. I don't want a family portrait where his bare ring finger is going to stand out for all our family and friends to see that we are still not 'back to normal'. I just wanted a picture I was proud of to be in the cards...
My friend's x-mas party is next weekend. Today at McDonald's I told him that his company x-mas party is next weekend and so is my friend's party but that his parents won't be in town to watch the kids. I said "So, do you want to go to Jessica's party with me because I need to start trying to find a babysitter if you do." He said "So, I guess we're not going to my x-mas party then?" I said "We can do both. Maybe we can eat dinner at your party and then go to Jessica's." So my question to you guys is, if I can't find a sitter, do I stay home? Probably huh? One of my other friends that I haven't seen in a long time is going to be in town from NJ and I'd just really like to see her. I'm only inviting H to be cordial anwyay, I could care less if he decides to go or not. I just can't imagine he would be very nice if I decided to go without him. I'm not surprised that things have escalated this quickly. I did say that my new plan was just to live my life, just be me. This is what happens when I stand my ground with him. And, looking back, I think that's why I always felt so guilty and like I "bring things on myself", because even though the choices he gives me aren't fair sometimes, I do know which one is the "correct" choice so as not to start a fight. So, sometimes I would tell myself that I instigated fights with H by picking the choice that I knew would cause problems. What a crazy cycle.
I'm gonna take a nap and rest my weary brain.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I know my cyber wrath is doing you no good, but I have to say I am glad your brother is apparently an even keeled person because if I were your brother, I would have taken a 2x4 after H by now and especially after the mall incident.
The frustration of kids and pics and the mall and bickering with your spouse is very real. I know, I have been there and I have been irked because of it and probably even have transferred it to the wrong person, BUT your H's actions are intolerable. NYS says you don't do that to people you love. Hell, you don't do that to anyone, period.
I think you should go without H if he won't go next weekend but I urge you to be cautious and prepared. There is no end to what your H may try to pull. I fear he is a danger to you and your children, seriously.
I believe I saw you say something about not being able to leave with kids legally, but I think there are some openings for you. I urge you to check with a local agency that deals with abusive spouses. There are ways they can help you. I, like most here, don't advocate breaking up a marriage normally, but I worry about you, and I think you should know your options a bit more thoroughly just in case. Please be prepared and take care of yourself.
I've read your posts a couple of times and havent been able to reply because it's so obvious your H is acting abusive towards you and the other's who've posted are giving some great advice. I'm afraid for you and the kids. Your H goes off at the drop of a hat with no regard for anyone. The scene at the mall IMO is way way way over the top. Not that he got frustrated, but dragging your kids to the car and leaving you? He's allowing his anger and need to control you to take over both of your lives.
You know all of that. I just want to say that I'm amazed at how you're handling this, but like Al says, there are people who can help. Abuse isnt just the woman whose husband beats the crap out of her. It's for the woman who's trapped taking verbal, and emotional abuse and being blackmailed with her children too.
He says "If we're doing the family picture, do you still need tights for D2?" I say "Yes, b/c after the family picture, I want to change their clothes and get a holiday picture as well." He says "So, you're just going to disregard everything we've talked about and do your own thing anyway?"
We get back to the boys section again and H takes her. He's still looking at clothes and all of a sudden, he throws down the clothes he has and says "That's it, we're leaving."
I say "H I have to get D2's tights before we go".
I was in the children's dept at Sears when he calls my phone. He says "I'm leaving. If you want a ride, come on." I said "H, it will only take me a few mintues to get these tights, that is the reason we *came* to the mall today". He says "NO, it isn't the reason we came to the mall."
I said "I don't know why you're pulling this now, their pictures are at 11am tomorrow, just let me get the tightsand we can go."... I was just floored at the way H left me behind and ignored me when I said 'Let me take the coats' and threw my jacket at me....I just kept thinking 'how did this become my fault?'
Heather, I'm thinking that since he saw your wish for a holiday shot as "you doing your own thing", which we know is anathema to him, and since you wanted to get tights for your daughter for the purpose of that picture, when it got close to the point in your shopping where looking for those tights was about to come up, that's when he acted on his stuff.
Additionally, see how he rebuffs your reasoning that purchasing the tights was part of why you went to the mall.
He just wasn't gonna let you go buy tights, so he sabotaged the whole thing, control freak that he is, by trying to get you out of the store by threatening to leave. When you didn't kowtow, he probably felt he had no choice but to leave or lose face.
And I'll betcha that answers why he pulled what he pulled when he did, and why he sees it as your fault.
(BigAl) I have to say I am glad your brother is apparently an even keeled person because if I were your brother, I would have taken a 2x4 after H by now and especially after the mall incident.
Yeah, my little brother is pretty mellow. He can be a fighter, but usually only when he's drinking. My older brother on the other hand, wouldn't even come around here b/c he hated my H. I think he's pretty disgusted with me b/c I'm still here.
(BigAl) I urge you to check with a local agency that deals with abusive spouses. There are ways they can help you.
This is where I still get wimpy. I just can't accept the abuse thing. I don't disagree with the opinion that it is abusive behavior. But it seems to me that the person being abused must feel like they are being abused, they must believe it and be afraid in order for it to really be abuse.
(BigAl) Please be prepared and take care of yourself.
I had an appt with Samaritan House a few months back, which is a women's shelter. I didn't show. Maybe I will reschedule that appt just to know what their take is on my situation. They see abuse every day and I think they would be able to shed some experienced light on what's going on here.
(Sheila)I just want to say that I'm amazed at how you're handling this
Really? Thanks Sheila. I tend to focus on all the 'bad' things I do like calling him evil rather than the things I do right.
(Sheila) Abuse isnt just the woman whose husband beats the crap out of her. It's for the woman who's trapped taking verbal, and emotional abuse and being blackmailed with her children too.
I know you're right. I would say the same thing to me if I weren't me. I think I should reschedule that appt with the Samaritan House.
(NY) Heather, I'm thinking that since he saw your wish for a holiday shot as "you doing your own thing", which we know is anathema to him, and since you wanted to get tights for your daughter for the purpose of that picture, when it got close to the point in your shopping where looking for those tights was about to come up, that's when he acted on his stuff.
Could be. I guess we'll never know the truth b/c H sure in he!! isn't going to give it to me.
Today, his is still adamant that the 'old Heather' is back and that I have been so inconsiderate, acting like I just don't care. He feels completely within his rights to have left me at the mall.
I thought a bit about the 'no consideration' thing. So, I told him I had been giving that some thought and I wanted to point a few things out. "First, I rescheduled the kids pictures so youe could be here. I had to pay an extra $25 to have same day pics b/c it is too late now to wait for them to be sent away. I also rescheduled at a convenient time for you 11am so as not to interfere with your football game. On Friday, when you flew in, I came home first and switched vehicles so that we could pick you up in your truck and not mine. At the kids' school x-mas party Friday afternoon, I told the kids they could not sit on Santa's lap b/c we were going to wait for Daddy and we would see Santa soon. We also brought you a cookie to the airport from the party." He dismissed everything I said and snorted at how insignificant everything was. I said "I know they are little things, but that's what consideration is.." He said "No it isn't, and you know what? All it takes is one big thing to wipe out a bunch of little things". He said that anything regarding the pictures was not consideration b/c it was inconsiderate of me to have been doing my own thing in the first place. Ugh. I can't win can I? So, I told him he was entitled to his opinion that I haven't been considerate, but after *considering* his opinion, I disagree. Then I asked him to think about consideration toward me. I asked him to think of any little ole thing. He wouldn't. Surprise.
Thanks for listening.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
It does my heart good to see you say that you will take your case to Samaritan House and LET THEM DECIDE whether it sounds like abuse or not. This is a healthy action - asking for help - asking for professional help. It is wise of you to be willing to let them have the information and to evaluate it themselves. Congratulations.
Don't feel bad about making the last appointment and not going. They will understand. That kind of thing happens frequently in these situations.
You could be too close to the situation to be able to objectively judge it. As you say, you'd call it abuse if it were happening to anyone else. You've been strong - very strong, but you deserve the opportunity to talk to a professional and get input from their objective viewpoint.
Please follow through with this. All your friends here are urging you. Your big brother seems to want a change for you. Your little brother seems to want to be able to help you. People are coming to your aid not because you're helpless, but because they want to help you help yourself. You are worthy of the care and concern that is being offered by so many. And you DO NOT deserve the treatment you're getting from H. NO one would. NO one.
I woke up this morning and D2 as sleeping in H's bed. I got very upset and asked him why she was in there. He said "Why not? She said she wanted to sleep with me." I said "You are NOT starting this with her too." She woke up at that point and I took her out to the couch. When she asks to sleep with me I always tell her no. There was one time while she and S5 were sick that I allowed them both to sleep in the living room with me. S5 often sleeps in the living room with me when H is gone and with H when he's there. H and I strongly disagree on this issue and I won't allow him to make my D afraid or reluctant to sleep in her own bed like my son is. A little while ago, this is the email that I received from my H:
So anyways, your daughter said she had a bad dream last night. I do not feel that I need to apologize for comforting my child and allowing her to sleep in my bed when she wakes up in the middle of the night and tells me she had a bad dream and wants to sleep with me. I actually believe you told me that she spent the night with you on the couch while I was gone. I don't know what to do. I can't speak with you and I need to touch on a subject that you won't talk about. I really, honestly believe that the only way that such a drastic change occured in your personality several months ago was with aid. I think you were on some sort of medication or a proper vitamin supplement balance or something. I am begging you, BEGGING YOU, to please consider going back on it. I know you are a very proud women and you do not believe it alters your feelings, and I agree with you. Please understand that. I don't think it changes who you are, I think it changes how you are. It just seemed like there was some hope for a while, and it's going to be really difficult to go back to the way that it was. I know you talk to family and friends and they don't feel you ever needed any or aid or that it made a difference, but they don't know you like I know you. I see the best and worst sides of you, I live through your highs and lows. For a while you were a person I could talk to, we could have discussions. I know it is tough for you to face, but whatever it was made you a more reasonable person, not a different person, just more in tune to your surroundings. I will try not to mention this again, although if things continue I am sure I will bring it up in our next fight. That was sort of a joke.
I have never heard D2 say she had a 'bad dream'. I'm not saying H is lying, but I have never heard her say that. I'm absolutely floored that H thinks the reason for my changes was that I was on medication. The closest I came to medication AT ANY POINT was when I had my hormones tested and everything came back fine. He said my adrenal glands might need some support, which is why I feel so tired by the end of the day and he gave me a liquid supplement. I also started taking a multi vitamin at that point. That's it.
In my opinion, the change he is referring to was my attitude to save our M. I was gonna do it. Remember? I'm sure my determination came through on this board. I had renewed conviction. Then things started chipping away at it. H told me he'd never kiss me again. He backed out on remodeling the house. He told me he expected me to put him through school. He continues to insist I'm not sorry for what I've done. He continues to insist that I not sleep in our bed. My attitude and my conviction slowly started to erode. Then my last few posts have been centered around just living my life and being me. I haven't done ANYthing drastic, I've just been reserved and not real talkative and determined to have the picture of the kids that I wanted. So that is the change "back to the old Heather" that he is referring to.
How the heck do I respond? Should I even entertain his email with a response??
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I think it's time to lay it all on the line. Tell him all the above things that eroded my attitude and my conviction to fix things. Tell him that if he isn't willing to: seek counseling both individually and with me, welcome me back in my room and promise to work on the 'no kissing' rule with his new therapist, then I am done. Done. OMG. Somebody please stop me.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I think it's that he can't deal with a partner on an equal basis.
If I understand your post, you tried applying solution oriented principles back then, and he didn't respond, he still fought against it. In fact, he stepped up his struggle with you and things got worse. Now, in this email, he expresses his wish that you change back to how you were back then, claiming that it seemingly offered hope.
Well, it did offer hope, but he decided not to pick up the ball and do something positive about his part in all this when the opportunity was there for the offering.
Now with your recent boundaries and keeping them (and I must say that I find myself agreeing with you regarding your take on most things), he's now realizing he liked it better when you were more willing to accommodate him, than now when you're asserting your equality. What his email suggests to me is that he still sees you as the one that needs to change and still doesn't see how it's really all about him having to make changes for this relationship to work.
He says how one big bad thing you do wipes out all the good little things, but he doesn't see how that applies to when he does his big bad things, like the mall abandonment incident.
He says he lives through your ups and downs, but doesn't see how you've had to endure his locking you in the laundry room, his kicking your head, his dragging you out of your bed, his putting his hands on you, his blaming you for everything he does, the list goes on.
I think your intent to ask for his participation to help repair is a way to go. Likely though, he'll argue and refute your reasons as to "all the above things that eroded my attitude and my conviction to fix things", since that's his pattern. And masked as a "sort of joke", he's already signaled to you that in your next fight with him, he's going to claim it's your fault things aren't working out; before the next argument has even begun we know how it will go.
Bottom line: he earnestly accepts going to a counselor, he earnestly works on his issues. Otherwise, he's just going to continue as is.
