Learning to Trust Myself IV

[spitfire23]

Holden,
That was beautiful.

Heather,
There are a lot of people out here in cyberspace who care for you. Now, please, take care of you.

Spit

[WindyCityBeth]

heatherg -

I can't add anything more to the wonderful advice you have received here tonight. Just wanted you to know I was thinking of you and please take care -

Hugs to you -

WCB

[SweetRedd]

Holy Moly Bud, Heathers' thread is pretty darn interesting to me. Sh*t! I wish we could conference call all this wisdom right now because I seriously need someone plugged in to DBing and some liquor. Yeah, even lambrusco!

Heather.. I'm gonna hi-jack, and it might not be pretty.. so close your eyes!

I read Heather's sitch and sh*t (again!), I see myself in the way her H treats her. And I wonder if his thoughts are as whacked as mine about my H because it's the distrust that things will be better, and the fear that I'll end up here again that keeps me pushing H away. He's not trying as hard as I'd like, but dangit, he's here. He says he loves me, he's not doing the things I've asked but he's doing stuff to make it better. Still, I turn it around on him and use the fact that he was slow with counseling, and hasnt found another job, and I justify the pushing him away. And I read what Heather posts and I see my H there. Made mistakes.. 90% maybe sincere. But, then he lies about a check or something and here I am throwing out the 90% truths that he might have told me, or just doubting in general because I've determined him untrustworthy.

NYS made a comment, if I was looking at his post I'd quote it.. about her H turning things around to stay in control. I think that's what I'm doing, and if it is.. I don't want that to be the reason I'm insisting that we can't work things out. But I dont know.. I want to shield myself from knowing by taking the sure thing.. that H can't do those things again if he's not here to do them.

So, I basically WISH we could work things out, don't know if we can, and yeah, grab onto the ways it looks like we can't because that's the best protection from finding out by taking that chance. If I knew I could survive being in this place again, I'd keep trying.. I just know how destroyed I felt arriving here after feeling so secure with H and where we were after our D.. it's hard to face that again when I'm now at a place that is detached... nahhh.. bitter and walled up as hell so that nothing gets in.

Sorry for the hijack Heather. I so needed to get that out and don't know if I've backed myself into a corner that I'm justifying out of fear, or if I'm to a place where I'm setting myself free from a bad R that could never be fixed no matter how much I give it.

Thanks for listening. Honestly, if anyone has any insight, please share. My thread is over in surviving. I know there has to be a reason why I cringe at how heather's H treats her. Not that I do the same things to H (or maybe, he is sleeping upstairs..geesh), just that the general attitude smells so much like it that that I can't ignore it. I wonder if my H is a good person that made some mistakes and is sincerely trying too. Heather, I think your H is a fool for not giving your R a real chance.. I just hope I'm not doing the same thing over here because I seriously dislike how he's treating you!

And Bud, as you say, maybe I need to view things from H's perspective and that'll make the difference.

Sheila

[heatherg]

Today is some better, no doubt thanks to you all. Gosh, what great people you are!

Sheila-
I think it's very brave of you to compare yourself to my H. However, just in your post, a couple of things stuck out at me. First of all, it sounds like you have a perhaps ongoing reason not to trust....even if the lie is "small" about a check. Lies erode trust even when they are little. Also, if you've laid out on the line certain things that are important for you in order to fully reconcile and your H isn't making an effort in those areas, then I can see where you would still be reluctant to dive into a reconciliation. When someone meets our requests, it tells us that we are important to them and that they take us seriously enough to listen to and honor. That is big, especially once disappointments have creeped into a R.

Making the choice to reconcile is not easy. If H told me today that he realized he's not been easy to live with and wants to try harder and wants to undo some of these things he's done, we would still have a really difficult road ahead because our natural pulls would want to take over at times.....our natural pulls toward resentment, anger, etc. We'd have to fight those pulls maybe for the rest of our lives. We've disappointed one another. We've hurt one another in ways that only we could....and we were supposed to be havens for one another....how could things have gone so wrong?? These times, these interactions are difficult to get past sometimes no matter how optimistic we are for the future. All the LBS's here say they want their partners back.....but I can't help but wonder if the WA's came back, would the LBS *really* want them back and do the work that it takes to reconcile? Or would they give in to their natural pulls to anger and resentment like my H has?

Sheila, I wish you peace. This is so much harder than I ever could have imagined and I know you're feeling it too.

[heatherg]

K, I was just re-reading your post and I wanted to say thanks in particular for this...

The term "WAS" does not apply to someone who tries to make their M better, Heather. It's the one who turns their back on the M, walks away from the call to forgiveness, flouts the obligation to improve their own self as a person and as a spouse.

These words are really meaningful and consoling to me.

Heather, unless he makes sustained, serious effort to change himself, he's not going to "turn around."

I think you're right. I can hope all I want, but history has already shown me what I need to know. In our last R conversation, H mentioned that he might need something from me that would be sort of a revelation about the way I treated him in the past. In the face of losing everything, he is still hanging on to resentments from the past and allowing those resentments to stall moving forward. Why would my A be any different? He's never going to let it go. By bringing up the past in the manner that he did the other night, he's as much as told me so. I talk about the past with H as well, but I noticed in that conversation, that I only brought used instances from the past as a defense for myself when he accuses me of hating him. I'm not saying I was perfect, far from it I'm sure. But he was the alcoholic.....how many alcoholics do you know demand apologies for the past from the people closest to them???? The movies indicate that it's usually the other way around.....but what do I know?

Can you get together with your brother and do something fun tomorrow?

I really needed to dismantle my salt water fish tank today. That took up my entire morning and into the afternoon. But we went to Olive Garden for a late lunch. Not exactly a super fun day, but sometimes things have to get done even when you feel like crap! Actually, more disappointing than having to do house stuff is thinking back over how little time I've actually spent with the kids this weekend. They're napping now. I need to spend this evening making it up to them.....hmmm, brownies anyone?!

And why not write? Just for yourself. If it's good enough, you can say, "I still got it," and if it's bad enough, you can use it in the fireplace!

You know, I never would have said "I got it"....but my H actually complimented my earlier writings a month or so ago....it really surprised me. You've got me thinking about it

Thanks for your thoughtful posts K.

[HoldenC]

All the LBS's here say they want their partners back

Maybe a majority do. And maybe most who don't have left these boards. But far from all want the WAS back.

...but I can't help but wonder if the WA's came back, would the LBS *really* want them back and do the work that it takes to reconcile? Or would they give in to their natural pulls to anger and resentment like my H has?

My second greatest fear. First is she doesn't come back. Second is the backsliding we're both capable of. But mine especially. I could give you pages(trying to resist it now) of the ways I could backslide .

My prayer is that we move slowly enough to avoid the situations where our relationship isn't strong enough to withstand the backsliding. i.e. we don't ML until she cuts him off completely, perhaps. (Lovely imagery, wouldn't you say, Mrs. Bobbit)

I think the keys to making it through early reconciliation are go slowly, don't expect overnight changes. Don't ignore unacceptable behavior, but make boundaries, not death sentences. 'If you throw another dish at the wall, you replace it in one week and you sleep in a hotel for that time.' (whatever fits for you, preferably considered rationally and not in the heat of the moment.)

In my case, my chances of finding a BETTER R than the one I had are equally proportional to my own DB health. And it's hard to get better at relationships when we're not in them.

It's incumbent upon me to work on myself now and (I think) FOREVER. That prospect doesn't scare me because I know I only have to do it one day at a time. That's how I manage other problems I've left behind. And working forever means regular tuneups with professionals and savvy friends if not constant counseling.

Is it Gottman that talks about the love bank? Somebody wrote a book on the premise that we need to deposit 5 good deeds for every offense in order to make love grow. I think I probably will have to try for 7 to 9 in order to cover for the inevitable slides back into depression. I like the concept though.

I'm sure that I'll backslide plenty. I half expect that there will be several last calls from W to OM. I don't rule out another one-night stand for W. I just want that chance to try to make it work, now that I know that I can get help for my health, and once/if she decides to try. I'll expect her to commit to working one day at a time too eventually.


Holden

[NYsurvivor]

All the LBS's here say they want their partners back.....but I can't help but wonder if the WA's came back, would the LBS *really* want them back and do the work that it takes to reconcile? Or would they give in to their natural pulls to anger and resentment like my H has?

Off the top of my mind, I think of Gwyn. Gwyn had a real hard time not dwelling on the hurt when her H came back remorseful. Big time. It kept sabotaging her efforts, even with the help of a MC. Even when things got better, she'd slip back into hurtful feelings and undermined her efforts. After some time, she saw it wasn't going anywhere fast that way but down, and then she started to get act together, and now things have been very much improving for her.

I think what we need to differentiate here is between what is normal, for lack of a better word, and what is not. When a WAS returns, the LBS, though having welcomed it, is typically put pack in a situation where they have to live daily with triggers and fears. That's normal. How they choose to react to that is where you can draw a line. If they choose to face those fears head on, look at the positives and build on them, look forward, practice better relationship skills, that's one thing. If they choose to be spiteful and punish and sabotage, that's another.

You also can't dismiss the fact that our LBSs look for help in their struggle, be it this BB or books or MCs. Our group of LBSs here have, for the most part, been working on themselves and their personal issues to one degree or another in order to have a chance at success should reconciliation come their way (let alone become better adjusted at handling themselves). For many, this has been quite a self-growth experience, a new awareness has come of it, increased compassion and empathy, a new understanding of people and relationships and have gained tremendous insights into themselves, others and the ways of better interpersonal dynamics.

Now, there are other sites where members are there for some length of time, and are still very bitter and spewing hatred and anger and are stuck in resentment. I'm doubtful that they could make reconciliations work for their part, and wonder if any new relationships they form might not likewise suffer due to their negative issues and perceptions and their tendency to give in to their base behaviors.

I think we all deserve a round of applause. It says a lot about us. It says we're not the problem, because we've shown we can change and work on these things, and that's the viable component that proves we're the ones capable of better.

[heatherg]

But far from all want the WAS back.

It seems like at first they do. Naturally, time and being treated poorly tend to erode that. But I shouldn't have said all, I should have said many. But that's my perception only from being on this site, I haven't been to any other sites, or really spoken to too many 3D people about this.

we don't ML until she cuts him off completely, perhaps. (Lovely imagery, wouldn't you say, Mrs. Bobbit)


Somebody wrote a book on the premise that we need to deposit 5 good deeds for every offense in order to make love grow.

Yes, I think it was Gottman although I have not read it. My C told me about it. I thought about this today and realized that I don't do very many loving deeds for H. I know I love him deep down, but it's just that....deep down.

It kept sabotaging her efforts, even with the help of a MC.

I've read Gywn's thread and posted to her a few times. She cared enough about her H to realize that she was pushing him away and to try to modify her behavior. Even at the height of it, she could see how her actions were negatively affecting her H. My H has never shown an oz, not ONE oz of uncertaintly or doubt or regret about the way he has reacted since I told him about the A.

I think we all deserve a round of applause. It says a lot about us.

I agree-a standing ovation for all DBers!!!!

~Update~
I haven't really spoken to H since Friday night. Just cordial greetings before he speaks to the kids. I called him tonight to chat for a couple minutes, see if I could get a reading on his attitude. He said he'd call me back in 15-20 mins.
He comes home Friday. Since he's been gone, I've been sleeping on the couch, which I have come to prefer and I'm really dreading having to go back to sleeping in the computer room. When H is home, his night owl habits make it impossible for me to sleep in the living room.

[SweetRedd]

Hi Heather Thanks for your post.. you're a sweetheart! Your post and all that followed are helpful to me too. NYS - you saying "normal" especially hit home. I guess I didnt realize I was allowed to have normal reactions to all that's happened in the last year. I've really been beating on myself for my anger, and any expectations I have of H. I have them, and I've hated myself for having them, but I can see how there has to be a certain amount of growth before putting some of those things behind me.

Heather - huggs to you! Dang, I hate what you're going through! I know how you're struggling every day with what to do and how to handle this and I don't have any advice, but you're in my prayers in a big way right now. You deserve so much love sister. No one should have to pay the price you have.

And the love bank.. Dr. Harley wrote that. He has the marriage builders website. Have you ever read anything there? He writes about deposits, but he also talks about lovebusters that withdraw from the love bank. Selfish demands, angry outbursts, dishonesty, annoying habits, individual (one partner making decisions without the other), but I can't remember what he calls it! The website is quite extensive and I can't remember everything, but there is a lot of info about dealing with resentment, anger and bitterness. And if I recall correctly, he posts Q&A and I recall seeing him answer a letter from an unfaithful spouse whose mate brought up her past infidelity ten years later.

Surfed over and found them:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5006_qa.html

Just food for thought. I hope you have a good Monday Heather! Huggs!!

Sheila

[heatherg]

Thanks for your post.. you're a sweetheart!

I was thinking the same thing about you!!

you're in my prayers in a big way right now.

Thanks.....I don't pray much myself, I don't think it would do much good for a person as unsure of her beliefs as I am...so I really appreciate when others who are more sure of their position with God and religion offer to pray for me. With so much going on in the world and all the things to pray for, it truly touches me when someone tells me that little ole me is in their prayer list. Thank you so much.

He has the marriage builders website. Have you ever read anything there?

I've heard of it from another DBer...HardHead if I remember correctly. I haven't checked it out, but since you provided links, I'll check it out today. Thanks!


I'm home today, S5 is sick. Again! Poor little guy. Not throwing up this time, so that is good, but whatever he has really has him down. His fever breaks through, I give him more Motrin, he's better for a while and then it starts over. Thank goodness my boss is so understanding!

My sister wants me to come to NY with her for a weekend in January or February....it will be so freakin cold!! She retires from the Air Force in Jan and wants to go to NY for some reason. I can't decide whether or not I will go, but I'm thinking about it. H would need an exorcism for sure if I chose to go.