All the art of living lies in a fine mingling of letting go and holding on. ~Henry Ellis
It's been quite a week here and I thought I'd just start another thread. Nothing groundshaking, but more peacemaking. I'm learning that I can be in this place and be content. That I can disagree with H without battling him or his right to live his life and make mistakes. I'm also learning to set boundaries and consequences.
The trip to my Mom's wasn't a great one. She was sick and I came home very worried about her health. I did give her some TLC and I feel good about that. I don't like living so far away from her and going home always centers me. It's like stepping back into myself when I'm with her. She also has a unique perspective of my H and I like to see him through her eyes. She reminds me that he's a good person, a good father and loves me.
She shared a story with me that I'd never heard or forgotten about how her first marriage ended. Her H was unfaithful to her and kept an apt and GF in another city on his truck route. When she found out, she got him a trucking job close to home and asked him to take it so he wouldnt be gone for weeks at a time. He refused. On his next trip out she got an apt, and moved out with two kids on her own. Major accomplishment for her.. she was well taken care of financially as a wife. When he returned to find them gone he asked her to come home. She refused. He parked his truck for two years and didnt work at all.. pursued her and begged her to give him another chance. Still, she couldnt do it. She said she was so angry and hurt and couldnt see herself with a man who said "I'm not giving up my truck for no d*mn woman" She said he could have promised anything, but not erased the fact that he had disrespected the mother of his children so much. Her finding him a job and asking him to stay was his chance and he missed it. She's never regretted that decision. I guess she told me this now because she understands that I might not be able to stay in this R no matter how much changes or how hard we try.
Anyway, I see so clearly when I'm at home and it gives me strength. It gave me the strength to come home and lay things out for H in a nice way. We had a long talk last night. We ML and are in a peaceful place together. I don't need to know what's going to happen in the future, but I do need to know that I'll continue being me through this. I've lost touch with that person over the last year or so and I'm slowly finding her again. I've forgiven myself for not being perfect and forgive H for that too. I'm also determines to not strive to be anyone other than who I am. It hasn't gotten me far.. trying to be perfect.. take care of everything.. fix just one more thing and then I'll be the person he can love in the right way. Doesnt work. He loves me like I am. His issues are his issues, not mine. And surprisingly, when I set aside my attachment to his problems, I get a good look at what I'm dealing with in my own heart and mind.
So here's where I am. There are goals that I've set aside for much too long. I'm still going to the gym regularly and getting better at yoga. I'm learning that I love taking care of my body.. yahoo! I have a goal to stop smoking two weeks from Monday and I intend to do that. I've checked into continuing my education. I'd decided not to do that because it would be a burden I don't need right now, but I think it's exactly what I need right now. I've never thought myself good enough, but I also havent done the things to grow a love for myself either. I've tried to get H to love me, but him loving me is an external thing. I'm just trying to be very kind and understanding with ME for a change and not question myself every time H does something that impacts my life. Those things are HIS responsibility to fix.. not mine.
He's coming around and starting forward again I think. I'm truly viewing him from the outside if that makes sense.. a detached view of him as he lives his life isnt bad. He's been frustrated with me I know, but it's interesting that when I say "this is not my problem" he seems to get it.
Well, H needs to go to bed, so Im gonna get off here.
I think this is the stage where the hardest work comes in. When we detach from our sitches and begin to see what the origins are for our issues. I had a really bad bout of depression that lasted for a good two days, several weeks ago. It came out of the fact that since I have cut off my former ways of covering up or avoiding or controlling my issues, I now see myself very clearly and I hated what I saw! But I was able to pull myself out of it by reminding myself that I was the only one responsible for moving forward.
I had a great convo with a friend last night. We were both complaining about how impatient we are and how it really screws alot of things up for us and makes us suffer unnecessarily. We came to the conclusion that we need to be connected to life but not at the control board. Very much like your quote at the beginning of your post.
Piglet, you are where you are at this moment and no where else. From what you describe it sounds as if you have achieved a good deal of balance which is incredibly hard to do! I know that you don't have everything that you want right now but you ahve the awareness and the desire to change for the better.
Your mom's support of your H, given her experiences with her 1st H, should mean alot. Both your H and my H aren't bad men, just confused and in need of the same thing you and I are seeking for ourselves. I like to think that I am offering my H an example of growth that he doesn't receive anywhere else, esp. with his "friends"! I'm thinking your H most likely sees you the same way. How could he not?!
Living life on life's terms. It's not for the weak. But you are doing it, that's a great thing.
Hey Sheila! I'm going to drag some stuff from your old thread back over here...
Do you ever fear that you're going to re-create the same probs in a future R?
Only somewhat. Here are the keys that I think will make the difference for me:
not having to be right all the time
not searching for that something, whatever form it takes, to fill that emptiness we all feel from time to time
partner selection -- finding someone with whom we're good for each other (who pointed out the importance of that not too long ago? )
But you always gotta keep in mind with me that I come from a very broken relationship. So I see big changes that can be made and that seems to allow for a much better R. If I was in a sitch where I felt we were so close but just couldn't make it work, I might find it more difficult to imagine something different.
So my plan is to find a good partner and tell her the ways I'm prone to screwing up. I'll ask her to please let me know when she sees me going down those roads. Then I'll work hard to stop going down them, even if it doesn't quite seem reasonable or logical to me. That's a biggie right there; prioritizing the other person's feelings even if they don't make sense to me, even if I can see an argument against them. Sometimes you do what your partner wants just because they want it. It makes them feel special. The other edge of that sword is you can't just do whatever they want you to do; you can't be totally consumed by the R. But that hasn't been a problem for me so far!
That last part is kind of where H has a problem, isn't it? He hasn't quite fully committed to prioritizing your feelings even when he doesn't understand them. At least he understands enough to tell you he'll stop...but the follow thru is a little lacking. I can see how much that hurts you. It's hard being lied to and then blamed for the lie.
Like I said, the emotion that H understands in anger.. anything outside of that or too expressive makes him angry and uncomfortable. He doesn't have a good track record of dealing with sad, joyous, scared, frustrated.. etc.
You know, that reminds me a lot of myself. My upbringing was also very emotionally flat. W's anger was easy to understand but I just got defensive so it wasn't very useful to her. Other emotions always struck a nerve with me as being controlling. Like, "You say when I do this it makes you anxious...but I can tell you there's no reason for you to be anxious, so why don't you work on that? Why is your anxiety my problem?" But I'll never forget one of my books (and I remember which one, if you really want to know), at one point basically said, "If you expect your woman to handle all her emotions on her own, why does she need you?" This isn't talking about a woman who's a basket case and expecting her man to supply her happiness. It's just pointing out that if a man doesn't help work with his woman's emotions, he's not putting much into the R. And that was me. Now, we could debate where W has been on the "basket case" continuum, but the point stands.
...and you don't even get the benefit of my bubbly, witty personality...
I kinda think we do, actually. So thanks!
Invite me to your Aussie wedding will ya?!
That's a helluva good idea, even if I was marrying an American! And I gotta be honest here...I love our Aussie chyx to death, but I don't know if I'm enough man for them. They might break me in half!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I was sending my response above as you were posting on my thread. You mentioned:
Quote: I have an idea if you'll stop by my thread sometime when you have time.. maybe you could tell me what you think?
I responded more to your last post in your previous thread. Your post in this thread seemed pretty centered and self-contained. Was there a certain part you are interested in my opinion on? Or are you typing that one even as we speak...
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Gosh, thanks for taking the trouble to cut and past from the previous thread! See how good I'm getting at dropping the rope and letting others do stuff for me?
not having to be right all the time not searching for that something, whatever form it takes, to fill that emptiness we all feel from time to time partner selection -- finding someone with whom we're good for each other (who pointed out the importance of that not too long ago? ) Have you started that book yet? I'm going to start a word file with all the MUST HAVE advice, and this is some of it. H told me that I have to always be right and of course I dont agree with that. Only when I know I'm right and therein lies the problem!
That emptiness.. what do you do with it? I was thinking about this while walking through our office complex after the gym last night. I thought about it on the 45 min ride home. It's the major reason I'm still with H I think. If not for that emptiness and knowing that I have a hard time staying there, I think this would have been over long ago. I mean, after we separated and D, I was dating within months and I wasnt ready. Heck, I'm more stable now than I was then but still, I worry that I'll start looking for that "something/someone" to fill me up again. I really like my time alone, but I don't like loneliness. And how could I be lonely with 4 kids anyway. It's that emotional connection and I'm staying in a R that's all but lost that connection entirely...I'm hanging on to a vapor here. So, I guess you're saying that emptiness is natural and we have to learn to live with it without letting it push us towards things that are just chosen because they ease the emptiness?
Someone with whom we're good for each other. Yeah, that goes into the book too. I guess that starts with becoming someone who's good for others in our life. You're well on your way to that BTW! Ya know, this is where my world fell apart I think. I strived so much to be good for my family (H especially) and when things fell apart I felt like I had given it my best and still wasnt good enough. Even after he left I tried to be that person for him and it was rejected. We've talked about this and he points a finger to his depression. Which is fine and good, but at some point I've decided if my best isnt good enough, then screw it, I'll do what I want until he decides to be good for me too. Probably not the brightest thing I've done because I don't like who I've become in our R. Knowing that I should (and I've said this many times) keep being the person I love and be good for him as a friend even if we can't have a R based on mutual good towards each other. Today was a step in that direction for me. Just deciding to call a truce and help the kids decorate the house and cook so he could enjoy the game was nice. I like the me that does those kinds of things and encourages the kids to be sweet to their Dad. They met him at the door yelling WAR EAGLE and he thought it was great. They had decorated the step rails with streamers and ballons and painted the storm door up... made orange and blue cupcakes and decorated the dining room. As we watched the game I looked at him and thought {I could really be his friend. We'd be good as friends. We can't seem to merge our individual values, needs and ideas into a M, but as friends we're fine} So today, after a phone convo along the same lines, but without specifics I decided Im definately not his wife anymore. We're not married, and we can't maintain this, so we're friends with kids right now. And yeah, I feel good about that, but there's and emptiness there.
But you always gotta keep in mind with me that I come from a very broken relationship Ditto!
So my plan is to find a good partner and tell her the ways I'm prone to screwing up. I'll ask her to please let me know when she sees me going down those roads. Test this plan thoroughly!! I've taken this approach with H thinking if I throw all of me out there, we can work things through together. Just make very sure that the other person is willing to throw their "stuff" in the mix honestly too. There is nothing more frustrating than wanting to meet someone's needs and love them and not have a clue where to start. It's also very frustrating to be an open book that no one's reading and to admit weaknesses that are used against you. I told H not long ago that I'm having a problem with anger and resentment. Asked him to bear with me, and that if I ask for space, I really need it so I don't vent on him. It wasnt long before he was pointing out my anger issues and blaming them for our problems, and he also hasnt given me space when I know what I'm dealing with is MY emotions that are irrational, angry, whatever emotion that I'm feeling but would like to protect him from.
W's anger was easy to understand but I just got defensive so it wasn't very useful to her. Other emotions always struck a nerve with me as being controlling. Like, "You say when I do this it makes you anxious...but I can tell you there's no reason for you to be anxious, so why don't you work on that? Why is your anxiety my problem?" But I'll never forget one of my books (and I remember which one, if you really want to know), at one point basically said, "If you expect your woman to handle all her emotions on her own, why does she need you?" Smart man. The defensiveness is the death of progress. There's no reason for you to be anxious and why is your anxiety my problem. You got it! If H (and he's said this!) knows in his heart/mind that I don't have a reason to worry, he sees no reason for him to try to protect me from that at all. In the convo I mentioned, I even said to him that I realize it's controlling and silly for me to ask him not to hang out with his friend, but could he bear with me because I was struggling. He created the sitch where I doubted what he's doing after work, and was suspicious of this friend, but still I realized that asking him to not spend time with that friend wasnt a long term solution. I was asking two things.. to not go out after work Mon-Weds until my doubts faded a little, and to introduce me to his friend. I was so hurt that he couldnt do that for me for a little while. Honestly, now I wouldnt blink an eye, so he wouldve had to forego that activity for a couple of months maybe, or less if I had met the guy. In the end, he's severed his ties to Shane. And that seems unreasonable to me.. he wasnt willing to work through the problem by not hanging out after work, but after I was hurt and angry, he's totally stopped hanging out with him, and I truly would never ask him to do that. So why is it now OK to give up a friend for me, but not OK then to just consider my needs at that point in time?
That's a helluva good idea, even if I was marrying an American! And I gotta be honest here...I love our Aussie chyx to death, but I don't know if I'm enough man for them. They might break me in half! I won't doubt your judgement, but I bet you are What a nice thought this is though. It would be great to see those of us who are struggling now in loving Rs in the future.
Are you right near DC? I ask because a former boss/friend works at Ft. Eustis. He lives in Williamsburg. Are you close? When he's in Huntsville he always invites me over visit, and with things the way they are, I've thought about making a long weekend trip. He was my boss through the D and he and his wife are absolute sweethearts. He's actually the person who mentored me toward the career I'm in, and he and his wife are great fun.
Long time getting to that idea. H has been sleeping upstairs again. We havent been getting along. More lies, finance, check stuff going on. I drew up our budget on paper, split it down the middle. H mentioned getting a joint account which scares the h*ll out of me. But what if we did that, we contributed equally to supporting the household (I pay the majority of the bills right now because I earn more), paid our bills out of that account and otherwise managed our money separately. I'd have a lot more left over than he would, and right now, he could do it, but still have some left over. I think his earnings are going to go up soon though when he goes to another job.. he went on a promising interview this week. I was thinking if we do this, he can learn to manage his money without putting is in a bad place. If he messes up, it doesnt affect the household. Any major purchases, financial decisions will directly affect both of us because we'd have to pay our fair share. He couldnt just decide to do something and not worry about where the money comes from and neither could I. And, he'd have independence from me questioning his spending and money managing skills, and so would I. I could save to my little hearts content, and I wouldnt have to deny myself because he's spending money without me knowing it and when I go to buy something, he's spent the funds for that new outfit (or whatever) after I brown bagged lunch for two weeks to afford it! Maybe it would encourage him to take advantage of his earning potential and strive to make more, or not according to his needs. He has opportunties to bring in extra money and doesnt do it sometimes because he knows my check is there to cover it. But truthfully, we could use the extra money because we drained our account when I was supporting the household without any money coming in from him. What do you think? Separate our lives as much as possible, but remain friends, work on ourselves and see what happens. Probably we'll go our separate ways, but in the meantime instead of warring through this, maybe this would ease the stress until he decides he's ready to move out on his own. I've asked him to do that, but he can't afford to right now, and like everything else, I'm going to have to wait until he's ready unfortunately.
Thanks so much for listening and maybe going blind from reading my posts. I realize I talked up my stuff on your thread awhile ago. I hope that's OK. You can do that anytime over here... I always find something helpful in your posts no matter where they are!
I honestly think once you find that peace within yourself, things fall into place easier. It is SO much easier wishing H would change than working on myself! You're right of course. If I could harness peace and confidence within myself, this would be much much easier!
I've seen two theories that I think could work. The Christians believe you fill the emptiness with your love of God and God's love for you. The Buddhists believe you accept the emptiness and become comfortable with it. I guess I'm a Christian who sees a lot of merit in the Buddhist approach.
Outside of that, you see people trying all sorts of stuff to fill their emptiness...work, sex, food, affairs, sports, change for its own sake...it all just seems to move the emptiness around.
{I could really be his friend. We'd be good as friends. We can't seem to merge our individual values, needs and ideas into a M, but as friends we're fine}
That sucks. But it ain't all bad.
I decided Im definately not his wife anymore. We're not married, and we can't maintain this, so we're friends with kids right now. And yeah, I feel good about that, but there's and emptiness there.
Wow.
You've earned peace. You deserve it. I hope this brings you a little!
It's also very frustrating to be an open book that no one's reading and to admit weaknesses that are used against you.
No doubt. I'm sorry to hear H has been desperate enough take your admitted vulnerabilities and use them as a shield sometimes. He's not in a good place.
So why is it now OK to give up a friend for me, but not OK then to just consider my needs at that point in time?
Because then he was trying to get his way, which was to hang out with his friend. Now he's trying to get his way, which means doing whatever he can so you'll stay. Nothing like the bomb, or it's equivalent, to clarify priorities a little!
Are you right near DC?
About an hour south of the beltway. My company has a really good customer at Ft. Eustis. And before we moved in June, we lived in Yorktown which is about 20 minutes away! Now it's between an hour and a half and two hours to Williamsburg. Which is entirely do-able, so let me know if decide to make that trip.
As for the joint account, the way you describe it, it sounds brilliant! He has to deal with his spending money on his own, you get to do what you will with your part that's left over, where's the downside? That you're still connected somehow? You're still connected in lots of ways, and will be for quite a while. If this can reduce the household stress then it's a great idea. And it sounds like it could be just what H needs.
And you certainly know that no one needs to apologize for talking up their stuff in my thread, least of all you. I still remember when I completely used your thread to post something all about me I just didn't want in my thread! I hope I at least thanked you.
Separate our lives as much as possible, but remain friends, work on ourselves and see what happens.
I think that's the best you can do. I'm so much calmer as I've progressed along the path of letting W go. And we get along better, usually. The nice thing about your sitch is maybe H will also be open to separating but working on himself and seeing what happens. If he can find a way to deal with his empty space, it may do him a world of good.
Good luck! I don't want to encourage you to make that kind of long drive, but if you do make it, give me a little notice and I'll be there to hang out!
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
Well crud! I posted a reply earlier and it got lost in cyberspace! I don't have time to repost right now, but I do appreciate your insights and comments!
We had the finance talk earlier and it went better than I expected. He had a few snotty comments about his half of the bills, but settled down after the initial shock of how much of his income it'll take to cover that. I didnt add in extras at all (dr. visits, clothing, kids activities) and think I'm being more than fair. He balked because I asked him to give me half of our health insurance and pay half of an allotment for some home renovations that comes out of my check. I thought about it and I only asked for that so he'd realize all the hidden costs we have that he ignores. I also didnt add in the cost of my car insurace, but we wont pay his out of the account either. He asked me how he's going to pay a couple of bills that are entirely his and I suggested that he ref, or do whatever it takes to earn that money and/or pay the bills off completely before he moves out. Then I told him that I'll spring for our christmas bills and let him claim daycare on his taxes. I want to encourage him to start taking responsibility for his finances, not have him start out in a hole. He was not a happy camper for a bit. Argued with me on math and re-added the whole deal. Whatever.. I folded some laundry and ignored that. After he settled down a little, I told him that I know he's going to have to watch his money closely and that we'll have to work together, but he's going to have to ask for help and advice if he needs it - not just mess up and expect me to fix it if he gets in a bind. I told him that I won't pay for any sitchs that he gets himself into after the fact (bad checks on his personal account- which is a payment I've been making to the court and I hope he learned his lesson!) I wont be paying for that kind of stuff in the future. Then I showed him some figuring that I did.. he's really coming out much better this way than if he's on his own. With child support, his car payment, ins, his bills, etc PLUS the cost of putting a roof over his head, he would not be able to afford to live on his own right now. He seemed to relax when I said that for some reason.. maybe deflate? Then he said, I guess I need to really try to find a job making more money - hopefully the one I interviewed for and I need to be reffing games when they call me to. I said yeah, if you stick that money back now, you'll have it for when you move out, and with a raise you'll be OK.
I felt like scrooge and it was hard. But, H has jumped from job to job for years without any thought about what that means financially, or if he's in a place to advance. And that's OK. I'm not making six figures, but I've always made it a top priority to be able to support myself no matter what. Maybe that comes from having Matt as a teenager and being determined that I'd always pay our way.. when I married H I felt like I was saddling him with responsibility he didnt sign up for - a ready made family.
Then strange turn of events after that tense discussion. I was getting into the shower and H pounced me. He wanted to ML. Matt had the kids out, and empty house.. so. Anyway, it took me by surprise and I said it's probably not a good idea. Too much for us to deal with right now, etc. Maybe he was just looking for reassurances because he said "I can tell you want me.. you can't deny that" A part of me wonders if it wasnt an attempt to pull me back into the cycle, manipulate me to get what he wants, use our physical R to change my mind. But then again, I could be wrong. It's not fair anyway! I'm frustrated enough without him dangling that carrot under my nose. I told him we could discuss it later if he wants, but I hadnt expected HIM to approach ME for sex like that and I need to think. While taking a shower I thought about it. I wonder why H ignores my needs, but when he needs/wants something, he gets working on it. I mean, he's made a big issue out of lacking desire lately, but he clearly wasnt at a loss for desire earlier. He seems to turn that off and on at will. If I want it, no luck, but if he does he assumes I'd never say no I guess. Maybe he enjoys the chase.. who knows, but he's been more and more in the mood since we've decided that we should go our separate ways for now.
First, this sounded like you're in a pretty good place considering the place you're in (ha! figure that one out). Do you feel like dropping an update on where you are now?
Second,
Maybe he enjoys the chase.. who knows, but he's been more and more in the mood since we've decided that we should go our separate ways for now.
It could also be that he's felt some sort of pressure that's been lifted. I hope you at least let it feel good that he does, in fact, desire you. Even though he has problems with it sometimes.
Stop WaitingFeel EverythingLove AchinglyGive ImpeccablyLet Go
I'm thinking your H most likely sees you the same way. How could he not?!
) 
What a nice thought this is though. It would be great to see those of us who are struggling now in loving Rs in the future.