Or how I Hijacked Honeypot's thread on the way to the Forum...
From Chromo
Quote: "Just how much time do kids get to "socialize" during school hours anyway? On the bus trip to school, 5-10 minutes before the school bell rings, less than half an hour during lunch, many schools don't even have a play period for younger kids anymore, 5-10 minutes after school, and finally on the bus trip home. Socializing during class hours is not only not allowed, it is rigorously discouraged. So, it looks like maybe about an hour per day?"
Good golly, what schools have you been around? Is this typical? Most of the schools I have been in (doing outreach work) the kids are doing activities nearly every day in every class and doing lots of socializing, team-work, etc. while doing the activities.
I see this sort of thing available in what are called Target Schools, but it isn't the norm in the average, run of the mill, public schools.
Quote:
"If your primary peer group are all your age, then I see it as soaking in a pool of collective ignorance."
Not to be too harsh, but I find that to be very cynical. The old model of the teacher lecturing from "on high" supposedly from a position of wisdom has been shown to be ineffective to many children. By giving the children inquiry-based activities and letting them go though the process of discovery with their peers (guided somewhat by the instructor) the studentes retain the key lessons much better.
I'm not thinking of the old model of teacher lecturing from the front while everyone sits quietly. In fact, that's what I tend to rail against. I'm thinking of the even older model of multiple ages interacting in an active learning situation in a warm, yet controlled environment.
Quote:
"before subjecting them to the cruelty that is part and parcel of the primary school experience, much less the middle school level."
You are right there. One reason I would consider home schooling is to avoid the bully-victim mentality that is so pervasive (and permitted by far too many teachers, principles for my taste) in schools.
I find it abhorrent to think that children who may vary by gender and size 40+ pounds are supposed to "work it out" while adults turn away. That normally translates to smaller kid gets whacked about. Also, the girl group interaction is sick enough to curl your toes.
Quote:
"the inability to pursue your curiosity for more than a short period of time if at all"
Again, maybe I am living in an unusual environmnet, but most teachers in this area have very activity/inquiry-based classes.
Chrome, there is no way that a teacher with 20 kids can accelerate or slow down to the speed and interest of one child. I personally hate starting to pursue something that piques my curiosity only to have it interrupted 50 minutes later, drop it entirely and switch gears to a totally unrelated subject. I believe in striking while the interest iron is hot. My libertarian heart is also dismayed at the necessary herding that is required in order to move x number of children through each day.
Quote:
"For all the whacked out homeschooled kids (and I know they're out there) I can only point out that they are the result of whacked out parents"
Good point. I guess the real question about homeschooling is what is the primary reason? Are you doing it for the benifit of your children, or because of some insecurity you have? The problem would be that the people who are doing it out of insecurity would have convinced themselves it was for the betterment of their children.
Why is that the real question? What is the primary reason for public schools?
Quote:
"Kids with different learning styles aren't accommodated in a group schooling situation."
Again, not the situation I see in school around here. There is lots of hands-on activity-based learning, very little "chalk-and-talk." Now at the university ...
Kids in the earlier ages have vastly varying degrees of physical and mental capabilities. I strongly believe that much of the ritalin prescriptions are a direct result of forcing (especially boys) children to sit or stand in place for hours every day. Young children need to be able to step away from the desk or table, go outside and run, jump, skip, swing, look at bugs, stare at the clouds, just *be*. You can't do that with 20 kids. So, we box them up, medicate them when necessary, and force them into an artificial environment that serves purposes that aren't necessarily theirs.
Quote:
"but we do flunk kids who aren't at a specific educational place at a specific grading time in a few specific subjects."
Whoa! Haven't you heard of social promotion. Very little flunking and holding back goes on anymore. In fact, now that the government has its nose stuck in schooling so much, state/federal funding is tied to head-count, so there is administrative pressure to not fail students. I have teachers tell me that they are forced to give students time in class to do homework, because the students know that they won't be flunked so they don't do their work at home.
In primary schools, kids are divided up into reading groups. Trust me, the kids all know who the "slow readers" are. And yes, schools still flunk kids where I'm from. And bog help them, the ones that are socially promoted find themselves in the 12th grade taking an exit exam that they are incapable of reading, much less passing. That's because reading is taught in these specific grades at this specific level in this specific way. Tough noogies if that's not what works for you.
Quote: I would rather learn American literature from someone who really knows American literature-- and can cite influences, cultural, historical, religious, philosophical, psychological on the authors and their works-- than from someone who is one chapter ahead of me in the book. I used to hate it in graduate school when we would have to break up into groups and "teach each other" some aspect of the curriculum. I felt that I was paying tuition to be exposed to the expert, presumably my professor... not to listen to other ignorant students like myself expound on hastily done research. (And I realize I'm now talking about college, not elem school.)
Well, you obviously had totally different types of teachers than did I. I have loved to read all types of literature from a very early age. Taking English Lit courses in college almost burned out that enjoyment. There were no scintilating "rest of the story" type segues. There was only dry as Egyptian sand disecting and a rehashing of some "interpreter's" ideas of what it all meant.
Quote:
Obviously homeschoolers do not consider this much of an issue, and I'm just wondering how they would address this? I know it is a different world today.
I don't know what homeschoolers obviously don't consider an issue. I know that the interelatedness of it all was something we were aware of during our homeschooling years. For instance, that great series "Connections" was an absolute treasure trove to dip into and enjoy.
There have been books written about how x influences were in effect when y was occuring and I found them easily available. I'm a very self-directed learner and don't feel that I have lost something if I pull the information from an author via his/her words in books as opposed to a teacher doing it for me.
My post on an earlier thread about my 5th grade experiences in school should have included additional information.
If my mother home schooled me, I would not have learned much. If my step dad would have home schooled me, I might have learned more things but would have been a very angry, down trodden person. Some parents don't have the ability or temperment to home school their kids.
My family could have been one of the bad experiments in home schooling. Other parents I knew at the time might have been good at home schooling their kids, just as some schools do a poor or better job at educating kids.
I think the parents and or school in question determines if home schooling, a private school, a public education, or a combination is the best way to go.
Quote: I'm a very self-directed learner and don't feel that I have lost something if I pull the information from an author via his/her words in books as opposed to a teacher doing it for me.
If you know to look for it. That's my point. If you don't have the background how do you know to look for the connections.
And yes, clearly my school experience is probably not available today except in a few unusual places. The biggest school I ever attended had a max of 500 kids. My h.s. graduating class was 63. My COLLEGE only had 2,500 students at the time. Now most high schools are way bigger than that.
For another thing, there was no ritalin back then. There was no junk food in school AT ALL (unless your mom packed a candy bar in your lunch)-- so kids were not hopped up on sugar. We had several recesses during the day and went outside and ran around. In 5-7 grade at a school on base, we had a math teacher, a social studies teacher, and an English teacher, and they rotated, teaching each of us their specialties.
About four years ago, I searched the internet for my 7th grade English teacher who still lives in New England where I attended that school. I sent him a letter telling him how much being in his class had meant to me. I learned some things about writing that I still use. One day the phone rang, and it was him! He not only remembered me, he had actually framed my letter! He said that he remembered that I was a good writer. This meant the world to me, considering I had this man in class for one year over 45 years ago. He sent me a fruitcake for Christmas, bless his heart.
I'm also still very close to one of my high school English teachers. I wrote a paper once on C.S Lewis (who is all the rage now), and she used to ask me from time to time if she could borrow it, just so she could reread it (no xerox machines).
Thank God for the teachers I had... given my home life, if it hadn't been for school, I'd be posting to this board from prison. Actually, I'd very likely be deceased... by my own hand.
Hi MrsNop Sorry if I missed this point before, but I was wondering if the home-schooling system is on a 12 month or 9 month schedule like the public schools? Is there "summer break?" We were just discussing this in one of the sociology classes I teach and how the public school system was set up around the 9-month schedule back in the day to accomodate the farming families. Now, it is fairly useless other than to "get a break." Seems like kids could be learning a lot more if schools were year-round. Just wondering. LFL
A lot of schools have transferred over to quarter systems in which they go 8 weeks then get 2 weeks off pretty much year round (they get one quarter - 8 weeks - off for summer break).
In Germany (they may still be doing things this way) they go pretty much year round, and are only in school in the morning. Of course they tend to test using oral tests rather than written, which is far better in my opinion (assuming the tester has their act together).
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: My family could have been one of the bad experiments in home schooling. Other parents I knew at the time might have been good at home schooling their kids, just as some schools do a poor or better job at educating kids.
I think the parents and or school in question determines if home schooling, a private school, a public education, or a combination is the best way to go.
Lou, I totally agree with you that some folks shouldn't attempt to teach their kids. I think we all can recognize that some folks shouldn't have children period.
I do think that with actively involved parents, kids will do well in whatever type of schooling they choose.
I'm a very self-directed learner and don't feel that I have lost something if I pull the information from an author via his/her words in books as opposed to a teacher doing it for me.
If you know to look for it. That's my point. If you don't have the background how do you know to look for the connections.
I don't think it's a matter of background. It's a matter of premise. I know that knowledge doesn't spring forth fully created as a stand alone entity, but rather that it is rooted into what came before.
There have been comprehensive historical books that tie things together. Perhaps I'm an oddity in that I have always adored biographical books. So, I guess I entered into the fray knowing that there is something "behind" it all and have pursued it.
That's sweet about the teacher. I think the good ones seldom get enough kudos and it's clear that your letter truly touched him.
Lou, Fwiw, I totally agree with this. I don't think homeschooling is for everyone. Actually, I'm the very last person who would advocate a "one size fits all" approach to absolutely anything.
There isn't a general consensus of how it should be done of which I'm aware. Some families go year round, some stick to what used to be the standard Sept-May school year.
There is no governing authority on how homeschools should operate. Some states have requirements, some don't. Some homeschooling families follow those state requirements and some don't.
Our local group consisted of several ethnic groups, religious folks, non-religious folks, hippy types, fundamentalist types, large family return to the past types, the let children be children longer types, to name some off the top of my head.
What is the primary reason for public schools?
