OK, I’ve got one I want to run by all of you and see what you think. I went back to the C today, the one W and I saw for the longest and the one who knows us best. He’s also the one that W liked the best. It’s a long story, but I’ll cut to the chase. He told me that there’s no hope. He said that W is a selfish, uncaring, narcissistic personality and that he sees virtually no possibility that that will ever change.
To be fair, he did point out that I have some culpability in that, that my accommodation and conflict avoidance had exacerbated the problem. But he said that the personality traits were very well entrenched and existed well before I came into the picture. He said that in addition to the traits already mentioned, W is/was absolutely unwilling to accept any responsibility for any of our problems, any of her problems, or any of the kids’ problems. She refuses to acknowledge that she has done anything wrong and that she sees no reason to change. He cited specific incidents where W has destroyed friendships that I didn’t even think he knew about. He cited specifics in the way she deals with our children. In short, he knew why I was coming and was quite well prepared.
His only real suggestion to me was to work on my R with my daughters. He said that trying to confront W right now would be disastrous for the kids since she already takes almost all of her anger and frustrations on them. He said that he would almost never recommend staying together for the kids, but that his personal recommendation was to keep on keeping on until the kids are out of the house. Truly, that was the last thing I ever expected to hear from him. I even countered by telling him that I couldn’t accept that. I said that I couldn’t believe that making changes to myself and changes in the way I interact with W wouldn’t precipitate changes in her. His response was to tell me that the only thing he felt had any chance of working was for me to completely and totally disengage from her – and that would rain down hellfire on the kids. He told me that was what he was suggesting, but that he was suggesting it only after the kids were safely out of the line of fire.
Let me interject here that W hasn’t done it lately, but I have had to restrain her when she was beating one of the girls with a stick. Her temper is explosive and her anger is uncontrollable.
So I’m having a hard time accepting that there’s nothing to be done. But I do trust this man and he does know W – probably better than I do. So what do you think?
Well, the C is right about one thing. Your W probably will not change. If she has a diagnosed personality disorder, particularly narcissistic or borderline, it is very hard to see real progress. They are probably one of the hardest mental health disorders to treat. Even Axis I disorders like bipolar and schizophrenia have medications that people can take to manage their illness. But there aren't too many drugs or for that matter therapies that have shown much success with personality disorders. To hear the additional information about her beating the children I think I would take what the C has said very seriously. Sorry you are going through this Z-Bube.
LFL, the narcissistic personality has been diagnosed independently by two different C’s.
Paul, it happened several times between the ages of three and about eight or nine. I think them getting big enough to defend themselves had a lot to do with it ending.
I believe that W does love the girls, but she seems completely unable to express that love. She says wonderful things about them to other people, but she’s always fighting with them and is hyper-critical of virtually everything they do. I’m constantly having to listen to diatribes about how worthless they are, but I figure it’s better to have her anger at them dumped on me than to have it dumped on them.
It would have to be quite a sacrifice for you, Z_Bube, to live in this M and know that she is not likely to change. That is a personal choice you will have to make. She will definitely have a negative affect on the children so you staying until out of the house makes sense for their sake. My aunt was diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder too and she no longer has any contact with her grown children (by their choice). My mom (her sister) talk sometimes but only once or twice a year to make sure she is doing ok. It is so hard for a narcissist to hold any sort of healthy R's. I feel for you Z-Bube.
ZB, I'm one that stayed in my M until D graduated from HS. I would not do it again if given the opportunity and my XH was "not" violent. It sounds to me like your children would be better off if you took them with you when you left. I'd definitely see a lawyer and get some advice about custody, etc. How old are your kids. If they're old enough they can choose which parent they want to live with. Good luck to you.
Do you have your kids in counseling? Have you read up on how toxic narcissists are to their children? Your kids could grow up to be like her. Is she still abusing them physically? I think this would be enough to get even me off the fence. Have you talked to a lawyer yet?
Quote: I even countered by telling him that I couldn’t accept that. I said that I couldn’t believe that making changes to myself and changes in the way I interact with W wouldn’t precipitate changes in her.
This is so hard to accept, I know. It's so hard to accept that there is NOTHING we can do... especially since you sacrificed so much to come back to this marriage.
The serenity prayer comes to mind... the courage to change the things I can, to accept what I cannot change, and ESPECIALLY the wisdom to know the difference. The C has told you what you cannot change; I think for a long time you have been operating under the erroneous assumption that you might be able to make some of these things change. I don't think you have any reason to doubt him-- your post vouches for his credibility.
I wonder if your W heard his statement, would she want to stay in the marriage. Why DOES she want to stay in the marriage BTW?
Beating a little girl with a stick so hard someone has to pull you OFF? Outrageous!
I think I would take what the C has said very seriously. Sorry you are going through this Z-Bube. 
Outrageous!