I understand what you are saying her and it is similar to most other people’s comments. But I don’t see this as any kind of solution. I see it as a way of resigning oneself to the spouse’s position, or rationalizing in one’s mind why s/he needs to stand up for who s/he is and leave the marriage. I am not one to accept the choices offered me if I do not like either one of them. And in this case, I don’t like either choice you offer. So why would I follow this model?
Your assumption rests on the premise that neither spouse should make any concessions. And because of this, there is no meeting of wills and so the two must part. I have never known negotiation to be successful under this scenario. Be it in business, diplomacy or personal relations, reaching agreement means both parties are unhappy with the outcome. But they are still happier than no outcome.
The only problem I see is when one person is unwilling to give any ground at all. To reach a settlement, the other must make all the concessions. Obviously this won’t work. There needs to be a more creative way to overcome the impasse. In this case you’re discussing, it may mean the HD spouse needs to concede on something else other than sex. I’ve never known any relationship in which only one person has all the faults. So if the HD can concede on something important to the LD, the LD might be able to concede on a little more sex.
I do not think the problem is that of an irresolvable issue or one spouse having low self esteem. The problem is the inability to skillfully negotiate the impasse. To term the issue as irresolvable is to accept failure. We are not dealing with irrefutable laws of nature, but merely human wants and desires, which are always changeable. The important thing is to find that special key that will allow each person to move off dead center. The HD person may never get as much sex as s/he wants, but s/he may get more than s/he would without a good agreement, and this may be more favorable than having all the sex the HD wants, but only after the pain of a divorce. And that pain is a major consideration in the negotiation process, for both partners.
Quote: Your assumption rests on the premise that neither spouse should make any concessions. And because of this, there is no meeting of wills and so the two must part. I have never known negotiation to be successful under this scenario. Be it in business, diplomacy or personal relations, reaching agreement means both parties are unhappy with the outcome. But they are still happier than no outcome.
I didn't see that as Corri's premise - that neither spouse should make any concessions.
I read it that one spouse cannot force the other spouse to make concessions.
You can change yourself and you can change what you put into the relationship. Since the relationship is a combination of what both spouses put in, if one spouse changes their input the relationship also changes. However, there is no way to guarantee that your positive change in input will have a positive response from your spouse or a positive outcome within the relationship.
Quote: To term the issue as irresolvable is to accept failure. We are not dealing with irrefutable laws of nature, but merely human wants and desires, which are always changeable.
You cannot force your spouse to be what you want in a spouse. If appeals to emotion, logical reasoning, bargaining and negotiation fail to work in convincing your spouse to provide for your emotional needs, then it is unsolvable unless you decide that you'll accept a continuing denial of what you long for.
The sad fact is that sometimes spouses won't make any true effort to change or even acknowledge the breadth of an issue, until the other spouse leaves. Human beings can be quite contrary that way. You can read the divorce boards and see that both men and women who have been left cry out "I didn't realize how unhappy they were." And sometimes reconciliation and true change can occur as a result. Suddenly the spouse that was left is capable of working on all the things the walkaway spouse had been trying to address for years. But sometimes the break is permanent.
People with long term relationships (and this can include friends) get into relational ruts. Where action and reaction are predictable and almost impossible to break out of. Oddly enough, this hit me in the face last year when I got together with 3 highschool friends. We hadn't been together as a group for 30 years. I was somewhat horrified as well as bemused to see the relational patterns *from 30+ years ago* immediately fall into place. I fought sliding back into the group dynamic that once defined our friendship and found it damn near impossible.
How much more does this exist in marriages that have had several years to promulgate strong relational undercurrents and riptides that drag us out and down?
It definitely can be done, and one spouse by him/herself making changes in their relational input can make a great impact for positive change. At some point in the process the other spouse has to come to the table to negotiate with some semblance of good faith.
Quote: The problem is the inability to skillfully negotiate the impasse.
No, your problem is just getting the other person to the table. If they don't WANT to negotiate, what then? Sweety, you've got your cart so far ahead of your horse, you don't even realize your horse is out to pasture, ready to start a new life.
You cannot change another human's wants and desires unless they ALLOW YOU (or they want) to change them. Period. Yes, that is an irrefutable law of nature.
Quote: The important thing is to find that special key that will allow each person to move off dead center.
That's called both people WANTING to reach the same goal EQUALLY as much.
You are going on and on about negotiating and concessions and one person giving up something while the other person gains, and vice versa....
Cobra, how do you even GET a person to the negotiating table if they don't want to be there?
THAT'S what this whole changing yourself first business is about. You don't have a pot to piss in right now, much less a window to throw it out of....
When one person REFUSES to negotiate (change), you implement the only plan available to you... THAT'S what I've (and everyone else) has been talking about. If we all had spouses that were willing to work with us, NONE of us would even BE here...
It's getting them to be "willing to work" that's the FRIGGIN' PROBLEM! You think you are the only person on the planet that knows how to skillfully negotiate? Please.
Are we on the same page now? If not, sure, go ahead and do all that stuff you've written out on your thread. Let us know how that works for you. Keep us posted.
The SECOND problem is, once your partner is willing to negotiate with you... how do you get yourself and the other person to STICK TO THE PLAN?
Another sidebar problem that crops up is, what do you do when the other person has changed, but hasn't changed enough? Even though THEY THINK they've changed A TON about themselves and you are just an insensitive unappreciative ogre?
No, skillfully negotiating is definitely NOT the problem. Course, that's just my opinion....
Been busy this weekend and have a lot of catching up to do (and then maybe I can even post some more on my own thread), but just wanted to say MegaDittos to you and MrsNOP. You both have framed the basic issues in the conflict very well. Thanks.
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
OKKKK im new here...it may take me awhile to get this out. however, married 21 yrs ssw here. lots of stuff going on. prob. same story you all heard with diff. ppl
Unfortunately my H held true to form this weekend. As you might recall our therapist had given my H the assignment to "court me" this weekend. I guess my H's version of courting is as follows:
Napping for 4-hrs each day, or sooozing & watching Hunting/Nascar/Car shows (while I'm busy doing laundry & housework)....after being up for only a couple of hours....so that the day is pretty much shot (after telling me that we could "make a day of it"), by the time he's ready to go out and do something it's 5-5:30pm. Saturday evening...he suggested we go shopping and out to dinner so he took me shopping in a new mall by our house (have I mentioned before there's nothing I need that can be bought?)...I didn't buy anything. Then he took me to eat at a restaurant that was so loud, we couldn't have held a conversation if we'd wanted to. It would have been a fine way to spend the day if we were doing family Christmas shopping....or even spending the day out with our 2S, but it definitely wasn't romantic nor did it foster any feelings of connection for me. I did try too. It's not like I was shooting down what he was trying to do, it was fun doing a bit of shopping, but it was far from what I needed. Heck! I'd have been simply thrilled if he'd have packed us a picinic lunch in our saddle bags and taken the horses out for a ride, it was a gorgeous weekend! But once again, it seemed to me that he was trying to "buy" my affections back.
We got home fairly early at which point my H started complaining about how full he was from dinner and that he had a headache coming on...can you say, no action happening that night? Sunday really wasn't much different at all....he wanted to snuggle a bit, but if he wanted to do anything more he certainly didn't send out the signals, which to be honest, was fine with me...I wasn't into it anyway.
I'm beginning to wonder if this man is ever truly going to "get it" or understand me as the person I am. I've told him who I am and how I work so many times and exactly what he could do in order to make me feel the way I need....yet he still insists on doing the same friggin thing over and over. I've tried so very hard to alter my way of doing things as well to speak his LL as best I can; when I do he's certainly a happy camper...but I'm still left right where I was as far as our R goes. When he's content, he makes no efforts...because he assumes I must be happy too...regardless of what I say.
So...I'm staying true to myself. I'm not going to give him a false sense of security. If I'm not happy, I'm not going to put on a false happy face for his benefit. That doesn't mean I'm going to walk around a sour-puss either, that's not me either. But I'm doing the best to be true to myself, do things for me and my S, and see if somehow someday my H will snap out of it.
I'm still feeling pretty much the same as I had been after this weekend.
Can any of you men out there explain to me why he's continually trying to fix our problems by buying me things...when I keep telling him I don't want that? If I were a greedy or materialistic woman...I could be making out like a bandit right now!
On the plus side, he is at least back on the work shift as I am....so perhaps that will help a bit, especially since now the sun goes down so much ealier.
(1) He has been hooked into modern American commercialism. You say he watches TV a lot, that means a lot of commercials in which you see women SOOOO happy to get this or that, or running around the store with big grins on their face. Also, a lot of TV show perpetuate the myth that all women go nuts over expensive gifts (my wife is same as you, she can't stand for me to "waste" money).
(2) Gift giving is the easiest LL to speak. AOS can require quite a bit of work (which takes away from TV time ), and the others involve getting up close and personal with the S. I think gift giving (unless it really is the LL of the person) is a sign of laziness. Now of course, there are gifts and there are GIFTS. For people who really know how to speak the language, gifts can be very meaningful. But just buying some pretty bauble or a boquet of roses is easy.
Just my $0.02
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Yes, I understand what you say...my real question however is...why does he persist in doing this, when I've told him repeatedly that it doesn't work? I've told him face-to-face, I've told him in our therapists office....AND I've given him sugestions for things that would work. Why not simply take one of my ideas and do it? I've explained how much it would mean and that if he would make THAT effort it would make a big impact...yet he still doesn't do anything different.
I honestly know the answers to many of the things I've asked here I believe....I'm just hoping someone can give a new perspective that I haven't thought of. He is continuing to do the same things he's always done, that's comfortable to him even though they don't work. Doing what I've asked of him takes him way outside his comfort level...and that seems to be the one thing he simply will not budge from.
), and the others involve getting up close and personal with the S. I think gift giving (unless it really is the LL of the person) is a sign of laziness. Now of course, there are gifts and there are GIFTS. For people who really know how to speak the language, gifts can be very meaningful. But just buying some pretty bauble or a boquet of roses is easy.