A New Beginning

[sage]

Hi Karen,

First off, let me say I'm sorry if I came in here and sounded heavy handed -- "here's your issue and I suspect you have it in other areas, too" That's one of the penalties of having so little time of late...I think about my response off line for a few days and then I come in and blast away. That being said, I stand by my original assessment I think you are personalizing h's statements and reacting to them and that's perpetuating a cycle. Your use of the word "defensive" (which implies "reaction" not "action" to me) reinforces that in my mind.

I understand that it would have been best for me respond in a humorous way, but I don't understand how it is NOT about me. Had he not been b!tching about me to his co-workers, they wouldn't give him s#^t. He has told me that his (female) boss was already trying to fix him up with some biker chicks, and that his "friends" have told him that they would have left me a long time ago. How do I not feel defensive after hearing that?

I know he is not going to go out w/anyone at this point, but I feel like he makes it a point to rub these things in my face about how he should have left a long time ago, etc. I don't just feel this way, I KNOW it. He does it to be hurtful.

So, Karen...where in the above is any indication that it's "about" you....I'm not saying you're not his topic of choice, but where, aside from whatever your bring into your side of the marriage, is his conversation or bitching to his friends or overtly hurtful behavior about YOU?

What if instead of your M he was talking about a blue shirt. How much he loathes this blue shirt, how he should have gotten rid of this blue shirt a long time ago, how when he wears it, his coworkers give him crap and offer to buy him a new shirt.

Is the above ABOUT the shirt? Or is it about h's feelings toward the shirt? Do you see the difference?

Again, I'm not saying you don't have responsibilities in this M...you're responsible for your stuff and that's cool but you're not responsible for h's feelings about your stuff...and he can and should be able to talk about his feeling without you absorbing it all as some reflection on you.

I know I'm not making good sense here and it's frustrating me too.

Let me tackle it from a different way.

I wish to God that I didn't react like I did, b/c now, again, h is done done done. I just still do not understand why he never says he is kidding or that he didn't mean it like that, or whatever, to dispell my hurt feelings, but yet, he gets MAD at me for not "taking a joke."

Here's another analogy...I feel like you're saying "h is pulling all the strings and making me dance and react and I wish to crud he'd stop pulling the strings so I can stop dancing."

Two actions -- string pulling and dancing that you think are cause and effect and that the former has to stop before the latter can. YOU can choose to stop dancing, Karen. That breaks the cycle too. I see you standing there saying WHY won't he stop pulling my strings (making hurtful comments, not apologizing for them) instead of focusing on "how can I stop dancing?".

I feel defensive b/c:
a. H doesn't care about my feelings and tells me so,
b. I feel like I messed up again, and any type of DB'ing that I ever do seems to get lost when I mess up
c. I struggle with thinking that he is P-A and verbally abusive and that I don't deserve to be treated how he treats me
d. I think I am a great catch who doesn't deserve to be treated this way
e. I wish I wasn't so thin skinned/sensitive, but I can't change overnight.
f. I love him and knowing that he only tells his friends his side of the story and that his friends don't like me hurts. (Obviously, his friends wouldn't dislike me if he told them how wonderful I am).

Which of the above can you control, Karen? Take the ones that are within your area of influence and let's put some goals around them.

A friend of mine asked me this weekend what my gut told me, not my feelings, or my head, but my GUT. Honestly, I think my gut has been telling me for a long, long time that H just isn't v sensitive to me or my feelings. He's been threatening to leave me for the past couple years.

OK, not to be insensitive but all well and good but still not something you can control...

I know I have issues, I never deny that. But, how can I work with him this way? I don't know what to do. Move out asap? He is giving me the silent treatment now, I am maintaining the mystery, etc. I didn't even go home on Sat. night.

What's your ultimate goal, Karen???

My two cents, take the focus off of h and what he is or isn't giving you and start focusing on your own growth. Does not coming home all night make you feel good? To me it seems like more of a power struggle extender.

I've got to run.

I'll be back later this week.

Sage

[Determined_Doug]

Hi Karen;
Sorry for the crap you are going through. As I re-read your thread, one idea kept presenting itself to me about you and your H's interaction. He knows you well enough to know which of your buttons to push in order to get a reaction from you. For him, whether he does it intentionally or not, it is a sense of power over you. "Look what happens when I do this!" and you respond, perhaps not in the same way each time, but you still respond because it is a personal hot button for you. Any power he has to hurt you with his comments or actions is power you give him by reacting. I also realize from re-reading your thread that you largely realize this already.

How do you turn off hot buttons? Well, in my case, finding them is the first step. When my W pushes a button, it is often one I don't know I have. I react in an automatic fashion to her. I don't know about your H, but I don't think my W (or most people) do it on purpose. So, what I have tried when I discover a new hot button is tell my W (after I have reacted and realized that is what has happened ) that a hot button was pushed. I hope that by verbalizing it two things will happen. One is that (in a perfect, merciful universe) she will avoid pushing that button (not bloody likely, mate!). The other is that I will learn to see it as a hot button and learn to change my reaction. (laugh, leave the room, pass gas...something different and unpredictable so that the button no longer has control of me). This is still an experiment in progress for me, but maybe my story can give you some ideas on what to do.

If you H is pushing your buttons on purpose because he knows you will react in this way, well, that is just emotional abuse in my books. I would tell him to STOP and leave the room. Just my $0.02 worth.

DD

[karen812]

H came into my room to ask me how the job search was going. I asked if he was moving up the "deadline" again. I moved the convo. to the living room b/c i like to feel safe in my own room and not like it is a battle zone. Believe it or not, H actually apologized to me for his comment being misconstrued. After this, we had a good talk. (This was Sunday the 6th.) He told me that some of his friends ask if we have gotten back together. I asked him why he didn't say this to me when it happened and that all he has ever told me re: co-workers and friends that: a. he discussed d w/a co-w that has been d twice, b. his boss is trying to hook him up, and c. that his friends all say that they would have left a long time ago. How am I to know that he ever says anything + if he only tells me the -? Then we and told each other that we are very much in love with each other. No resolve or anything, so I went back to being sep. Remember last time, I started staying in our bed again and he freaked b/c he didn't want me to think that "this was going somewhere he wasn't sure if he wanted"?

This morning I told him I would probably go move in with a friend, then get my own apt. when i can. We started talking again. It sounded like it was "as if" talking as in as if we would continue working on our m. He still blames for um...about everything. He says his mistreatment of me has been due to how I abused him in the past and that I just haven't been patient enough for him to get over it, so that he can then treat me better. I asked, "don't you think some of the things that you have done have been abusive?" and he said, no, not at all, but maybe "uncool." UM...I don't think so.

[karen812]

So, now I feel bad. Why bad??? He actually sounds like he still might want the m, so why do I feel bad?
1. b/c I still feel like he blames me for EVERYTHING-including his actions, statements, how he treats me.
2. b/c I don't think he is willing to own up to any of his issues.
3. I am afraid to trust him.
4. I think he has been verbally abusive
5. He keeps bringing up the past and can't seem to let me live it down.
6. He won't go to mc
7. I feel like I am constantly jumping through hoops to earn his approval.
8. I fear b/c whenever we have an "argument," he says he is done and wants a d.

Does this make sense? I know the DB way is to accept the blame and do whatever it takes to get a better response from our spouse, but...what about dignity and self-respect? How much mistreatment can one take?

P.S. No, I was not implying that H was pushing my buttons and that I wish he would stop. Well, I guess I do wish he would stop, but I was referring to my own inability to respond rather than to react. I wish I didn't get emo over stuff, but sometimes it is automatic. I am talking to a C about this.

Also, Sage, I don't get the shirt analogy. If he doesn't want the shirt and doesn't like the shirt, then why would the shirt want to be kept (should it have feelings)?

I KNOW I am a good person and good wife who messes up and has messed up. But, how long do I have to PAY for my mistakes? Quite honestly, I am very tired of it. I think I deserve to be treated nicely b/c I am v nice!

karen812

[Determined_Doug]

Karen
How are you coming along with your goals?
Sometimes it seems like we try to change so much for our spouses in order to get them interested in us again. I like a lot about what Michelle says in her books, but one thing struck me about my situation the other day and it probably applies to a lot of people. If our spouses are getting everything they currently want out of the R, what motivation do they have to change their behavior? Here we all are, trying to become better people and working on ourselves (all with the hope of turning our Spouses interest in us around) and in many cases, they are not appearing to care or do anything on their side of the fence. What can we do to motivate them?

If your H is jealous about you having other boyfriends, should you be so quick to disuade him of that? Would he want you more if he really thought he was competing for your affections? It is an interesting question. If he is the violent type, maybe not such a good idea. But a little mystery may make him think about it.

You are lucky. You still sound like you two ML. That can be a real healing blessing. Cherish it. Maybe even build on it.

Neither of you were perfect when you married. You probably have the same basic personality you did when you first met. Change what you want to about yourself for yourself, not for him. If your emotional reactivity is a bother for you, then enjoy the process of changing. If it is only a problem for him, however....?

[karen812]

Hi DD,
I have been doing pretty well with my goals. I am doing alright with my finances and working on paying some things off. I haven't been doing much job-hunting. A few interviews from he!! have turned me off for a little while, and now with the holidays, etc...I've put it on hold. I'll get back into it soon. I have been doing a v good job AAI and GAL.

My H is certainly not the violent type, so as you said, if he thinks I have other guys interested me...not a bad idea. Truth of the matter is, I got hit on all the time while M, so it's not much diff being Sep.!

We have had a couple good talks. Last Sunday, the talk kinda sounded like, "if we were to work things out...how would we?" But, it was not definitive at ALL and he never said, "let's try again" or anything like that. But, we ML. Then I went back to my room. He came to see me a couple times to ML, then on Sunday this week I told him I was going to stay with a friend. Sunday night he comes in to my room to hang. He chit chats then he just stands there. I want to scream "what the heck do you WANT??? You obviously want ME, but ???" So, I spent the night in our room. Monday night I went to bed with him too and we both cried and hugged, then ML some more. and more on tuesday morn! He said he was sad, but I didn't get into any discussion with him though i wanted to say so badly, "we can do this!" In the past I have begged and pleaded with him to stay with me which worked back then, but once he started being jerky and lied, I quit begging and started putting some of the responsibility on him and said, "are you in this or not" kind of things. Then he would come back and say that he was in. Then we fight and he says he is out. I can only go back and forth so many times. However, I am still willing to go back again!!! (or would it be forth?) :.)

So, last night, I took some things to friend's house, but I have to go home to feed my dogs twice a day. I spent the night away and fortunately, my best friend helped me and stayed over with me. My dr. friend whose house I am staying in is out of town again and her house is fab.! It's 20 min. from my house. This morning, I stopped by to feed dogs (they live outside), but I didn't go in. It was so hard. I wanted so bad to go in and say "I want to be home with you!" or have him come out and say "don't go!" But...I don't know what would work right now. I think letting him miss me and go through this holiday w/o me, etc. might do some good. I'm also afraid if I see him that I would jump in the sack with him, and I don't know if that would help right now or not.

My plan (today) is if we talk, to continue going along with the D and be understanding to him as much as possible. Last Sunday he said that he feels like he can't be himself with his s.o.h. and that he needs to be happy, so I said, "I understand. I don't like it, but I understand." Really I'm thinking "duh...that is so stupid! if you would just say, "just kidding" once in a while, I might be more apt to 'get it'."

I am hanging in. Wanting to bust out in tears at times (which I do), but...maintaining. Learning to stop myself from crying is helping me too.

More on the emo response part in a bit. I have to go to 2nd job.
ttyl,
karen812
p.s. thanks soooooooo much for stopping by. i'll write you later too!

[karen812]

I DB'ed and haven't even really meant to be DB'ing. I've been out of the house 4 weeks today. I totally have a life, I have been having so much fun, meeting new people. AAI has truly become how I am! I have gotten a new mechanic, been making plans for new apt., etc.

H started sending me emails saying that he wanted to work out the separation agreement last week. So, we finally agreed on a time to get together this morning. I went over there and he brought up RECONCILING. I didn't have a lot of time to get into a serious talk, so we decided to get together tonight. He says he has done some reflecting, but I am still under the impression that he thinks that I am the one that needs to change. ??? I don't know what to do. I do NOT want to jump back into this M. I have been so happy, and I'm not sure how to combine my happy self with my married self. He says he wants to be over the past. I honestly am not sure if I really feel like I am "in love" with him anymore and I don't know if I want this. It all depends on what he has to say I suppose. I'm thinking that he probably has not changed his mind about wanted to go to therapy.

ttys,
karen812