It's ironic that most LD's hate to be needed for "sex", when I believe that they CAUSE sex to be just sex. There is sex, and then there is Making Love. For the last 10-15 years, I have had sex about 10-15 times a year. I don't think we ever ML during those years. When 2 peopple have fairly high levels of desire, then they can ML. But when only ONE of the partnership has desire, then that couple can only have sex. Making Love requires passion, and passion requires desire, and in my marriage there is no passion. THe result is that almost ALL touching both in and out of the bedroom is from me to her, and not the other way. So every time we get together physically, it is "sex" and not "ML". It is almost like she is a masturbation aid for me. She allows me to arrouse her. She allows me to please her. She allows me to have sex with her body. But it is never ML. She never gets into it, she never connects, she is never sexually confident, she is never erotic or sensual, she is never interested in pleasing me, she is just there.
The bad thing about this is that you can not ask someone to ML. You can ask them to have sex, but there is no way to ask for ML. So, can a LD/ND ever get to the point where they can ML?
I've wondered this too. Do I just have sex, or is it ML? When I am really "into it" it seems almost as if I am trying to prove something. It's almost a control thing. The times that my H would cite as the best times were in the beginning, the "seduction" phase, for lack of a better word. Maybe I was just trying to prove how sexy and desirable I was, what a good catch. Who am I trying to prove it to? Him or me? And I may have started out HD, but after the relationship continued to develop, insecurities settled in and without encouragement, I would begin to wonder if feelings were mutual, was I doing this right? Was it good for you? Was this R going anywhere? All buzz killers.
You categorize people as HD, LD, ND....but it's not always so cut and dried. My H would say I am LD because I do not want to have sex (or ML) as often as he does. I think I am normal, I just need to have an emotional connection first. I am sure that he would see sex as a means to bring us closer together emotionally. I on the other hand, need to feel the emotional closeness to want to ML. Who gives in first? Sometimes I was not even sure if my H LIKED me, much less that he loved me. How am I supposed to ML to a man who doesn't even like me? Why would I?
It was a vicious circle. H would want to ML, I would not want to because I didn't feel emotionally connected. He felt frustrated and rejected and acted moody. I thought, he's such a grump, he can't even be nice to me, etc, etc. A horrible downward cycle.
Is is possible she makes love differently than you do? Not with her body, but with her mind or her actions? We've all read the 5 LL books, I know you've delved into this. How do you show her that you like her? That you enjoy her company? That you value her opinion? That you appreciate the things she does for you?
My H rarely complimented me on my cooking, housekeeping, organization skills, patience with the children. Instead he found fault in almost everything I did. How can a man want to ML to me if he finds fault in everything I do? (And, NO, it was not because I was really bad at all those things)
OK, I'm probably projecting a bit here, but these are things I wonder. I need to know. How do you think ML is different for you? Do you have that "in love" feeling when the two of you are really connected? Is that what it is you're looking for?
Can we compare it to another activity, like dancing maybe? You like to dance, in the beginning your spouse says she likes dancing too. She goes dancing with you all the time. Then she sprains her ankle and can't dance for a while, she loses interest in dancing and just decides to live without it. You on the other hand, still like to dance, dancing alone is not so much fun, you miss the times you used to dance together, but the more you want her to dance, the less she wants to and the more strongly she feels against dancing. When she does give in, she limps around the dance floor, just going through the motions so that she can say, " There, I danced with you, are you happy now?"
So, did she ever really like dancing, or did she just do it in the beginning for you?
CeMar!! This is the longest, inner view post I have ever seen. Sweet. You can ask them to have sex, but there is no way to ask for ML. Absolutely true. Thank you for stating the obvious. (Do you mind if I call you Captain Obvious. With respect of course.)
You have stated somewhere that your W will give you sex whenever you want. At some level she has a lot of love for you if it is something she does not want to do and or is not enjoying. That counts for something. Sh!t that counts for a ton. I bet there are hookers who wouldnt have sex with your cranky old ass. Many guys dont even have this much wiggle room, because of either resentment or abuse.
she allows you to please her? Does she climax? It is impossible to get a sense of your relationship with her. I havent seen any mention of conversations you have or activitis you engage in. All I pick up is your seething mass of resentment and frustration and wanting other people to say that the situation is hopeless and unsolvable. It will continue to be as long as that is your mindset. Reading a book and thinking she should be doing x, or y or z won't. Does anyone here know of any DB'ing Cemar has used to work on this.
Can you just turn off your resentment, Captain Obvious? If so please do. (I'm busting your balls dude. Damn I am funny. ) Can you just turn off your frustration?
Then how can a female LD just turn on their feeling to ML?
Very interesting perspective from the LD womans point of view. Did my wife like "dancing" in the beginning, I really think so, we "danced" everyday for about the first 4 years. THen babies came and her body quit on her, and she does not care if she ever "dances" again.
My wife to needs the emotional connection first. But no matter what I can do, she still does not desire before arrousal. I have to provide ALL the desire, and it is not possible for a relationship to succeed in that case.
As for her love language, all I know is it is NOT physical touch. Do I appreciate the things she does for me? Yes, but the problem is that everything that she does for me is NOT what I want. I would trade EVERYTHING about her if she could become my lover again.
The problem with love langauges is that the only language you should be speaking is the one that the spouse wants to hear. THe problem is she can not speak mine.
Why would anyone want to have just sex? There is no connection when having just sex. This makes your partner basically into a hooker, it's all business. It causes me to resent her AND to disrespect myself. I guess what I am saying is that just increasing the quantity does NOT improve the situation in the long run. I actually lose respect for myself by having sex with someone that does not want me.
Quote: I actually lose respect for myself by having sex with someone that does not want me.
Cemar: Don't lose respect for yourself for having sex with your wife even if she doesn't get into it. For your sake, your doing what it takes to keep the two of you glued together. That alone deserves respect. Having sex with your wife should help you want to keep your sex life at home. By having sex with your wife even if she is not passionate, still makes the statement that you and her being together is right for the both of you. And her going along with it is agreeing with that statement.
As for her being willing to have sex with you any time you say "let's go for it" and the fact that she's not really into it says WAY MORE about her feelings for YOU than if she was just really horny herself. If she was really horny like some of the HD women on the board here get, she'd be doing the act for more mutual reasons than a LD spouse who's doing it because that's what their S wants. When your spouse goes along with ML and does not really want to be doing so, it is a much greater AOS than doing it with a HD spouse that is horny all the time. She is telling/showing you that she cares for YOU much more than a HD spouse who is just much more into the sex.
Life is full of compromises, Cemar. There's an old expression, don't look a gift horse in the mouth. Lou would probably be able to give you a more literal translation of what that is supposed to mean. But to me it means that you shouldn't turn away a good thing just because it rates a 9.5 and you were looking for a 10.
Try to drop your own resistance to making your marriage a positive force in your lives. Make the most of it while you still are able. Life is too short to spend much time agonizing over minor details.
In closing, did you ever see the movie, "Grumpy Old Men"? In it John Gustavson's father, played by Burgess Meredith, who is in his eighties tells his son, John, played by Jack Lemmon, "Life is too short. Mount the women" Not only is it a classic line, it is perfect 20/20 hindsight. Some day you will regret the time you spent worrying about whether or not she was really into it INSTEAD of mounting her.
You have to open up and talk about yourself, what kinda conversations you have with her, how you react to each other, show us something other then you are lonely and frustrated. Do you answer questions? We know what you want all ready. Your defeatist comments and attitude are not a solution. Besides that I find you very unattractive when you do them.
Do you want a solution? Or do you want to live in your misery and keep your wife there with you?
I want you to know we are on the same page when you say you want a connection when having sex. Ditto. I don't enjoy sex for sex either. I have done it a few times (one night stands, long ago, none were a good experience for me) and it was not for me. To much hassle. Is she phsyco, is she clean(disease), is she clean, does she taste good, is she going to bite my johnson, how do I get her to leave, Where did I leave my keys, Does she have a boyfriend that is going to show up......much easier to handle it myself. But even in a HD relationship there are times you have sex just for sex. sometimes its hormones, sometimes it is stress relief, sometimes its a quicky . Very rarely does a woman climax from them or get anything physically persay out of them but a mess to deal with but they enjoy them and feel womanly afterwards nonetheless.
Personally when I am having sex regularly I perfer to not give her a climax every time. They dont need the frequency like we do and it keeps the woman unsatisfied and amped up and eager for the next encounter.
In a marriage though sex is not just sex. I told Lou, it is good for you, it is good for her, it is good for the relationship. whatever you may think right now-- a bond is made. If she is open to it, at least willing, not openly resistant or hostile to the idea I think you should increase your frequency. A womans sex drive is much different then yours. You say 10-15 times a year..... that is not going to keep her motor running. If women dont keep it active it gets rusty and dusty down there.
Little known fact, most lesbians in long term relationships have zero sex life. The man brings it to a relationship. His odor, his pheromones, his mental state, his presence, and manly attributes.
We trigger the sex drive. We have the testosterone at a minimum 10x more.
If you double the average womans testosterone they literaly freak out and have to satisfy there urges multiple times a day. and the average man still has at minimus 5x more then steroid girl. We dont get enough credit for controlling our urges. Get over it.
It causes me to resent her AND to disrespect myself Tough love buddy...only your perception of your self can cause you to direspect yourself. change your perception. I have touched on this briefly but, barring sexual abuse situations, and often even in those-- it is the mans mental state that dictates the relationship.
This is not far eastern jedi mind trick mumbo jumbo. How are you at home? Are you happy. Is there an air of fun and happiness and well being? Can you make your wife laugh and giggle like a teenage girl? Does she have a life? friends, activities, Do you have a life? What do you do for fun. Do you watch porn? Dont expect that from your wife. Jenna Jameson made over 8 million dollars last year. I bet your wife would ACT that way two for that much money.
Does she read fiction? Would she read a mystery romance novel?
Read the LD womens posts, not wishing your wife was doing what they are, but to see what she may be thinking and most importantly FEELING. Read between the lines. I try to point out what is beneficial to us as men when I run across it, but you have to get your thought process used to working that way.
Get in her head. Make her feel things. New things, Suprise her.
I will be happy to post with you about this stuff, If you are willing to look in the mirror and say "the relationship lives and dies based on the head of the house." That is supposed to be you.
Isn't the goal to have a passionate marriage?
I dont know. Is it your goal? Then say it with conviction and stop making it a question. You sound lost when you do that. Have a direction.
Life has thrown you this problem so that you can improve yourself as a person and get rid of your insecurities. Own the problem so you can start solving it.
Hmmmm that just caused a flash. Do you think your are attractive?
Ill tell you what I see in you. Ill tell you things I think you can try. Ill point out resources to help you fix you. I am not going to respond to you anymore unless you answer my questions and talk about your sitch. Show me what you got Captain Obvious.
Quote: Personally when I am having sex regularly I perfer to not give her a climax every time. They dont need the frequency like we do and it keeps the woman unsatisfied and amped up and eager for the next encounter.
<Coffee Spew>
You've got to be kidding, blackie.
I'm telling you right now this wouldn't fly in my home. You'd either reciprocate or the R would end. If your wife was okay with that, then I suppose it was your choice to make. I'm curious--what if she had done that to you? How would you have reacted?
I think the better attitude is to let HER decide, since it's her body. Who are you to decide whether her precise blend of hormonal cocktail and feelings/emotions du jour require one or not?
That rubbed me the wrong way. (pun intended, lol)
I can tell you that, hormonally, my H and I are quite normal. I do not have azzloads of body hair and a deep voice. LOL My H is a manly kind of guy..hairy, strong, lean, etc. And yet he would NEVER dictate when I did or did not get to orgasm. If he even tried that bullshiit, I would take care of myself right then and there while he was busy recuperating from the pleasures he received from MY body.
I understand that you are reconstructing your masculine strength and I applaud you for that. But I wanted to forewarn you away from crazy attitudes, lest you have trouble in future R's.
"Personally when I am having sex regularly I perfer to not give her a climax every time. They dont need the frequency like we do and it keeps the woman unsatisfied and amped up and eager for the next encounter." - Blackfoot
LOL You're a real trip blackfoot! I don't think keeping a woman "unsatisfied" on purpose is a great strategy in a M. Maybe you xW would agree?
Love reading your posts though. I very interesting perspective you have for sure.
As for poor Cemar, not sure what to add there. All I can add is that if my H had your attitude, I would not want to ML either. You stated you need the emotional connection but I can't imagine a person can be one way on this board and completely different in the M.
That goes for you too Blackfoot You have a very strong personality. It's attractive, but could certainly get you into trouble in any long-term relationship. Might get a little overbearing for the woman. Just giving you an honest opinion. Take it or leave it. I know that you will.
blackfoot, I enjoy your posts, too, but I have never made the guy responsible for my o. The concept of a guy "giving me an o" is completely foreign to me. When I start ML the way it works for me is I decide at the beginning, or somewhere along the way, if I'm willing to bring the "focus" needed for me to o. If I want an o, he can stimulate me orally or manually (doesn't happen from ic alone), or I do myself manually. If I'm not interested in an o, then none of that figures in, and it's still pleasant. The o is not something he keeps in a box under the bed and dispenses to me when he feels it's appropriate. I've always felt this way, ever since my first marriage in 1972... I was surprised to read later and hear that men made themselves responsible for the woman's o.
I do understand crazy's point about sex (esp early on) being about "proving something," i.e., am I attractive, amd I hot, am I the "best s/he's ever had." I had a thread on that topic once that asked if, even in marriage, is sex sometimes about "scoring"?
) Can you just turn off your frustration? 
