Cemar - I DO go bare to bed - OFTEN and believe me it is no guarantee. Sometimes it just rates a contented snore from H.
GEL - yeah I agree that the occasional sexy communication buys some good will. Not sex but goodwill and is worth it when I can handle the feelings of rejection when I get the appreciative reaction but more than a week passes with no passes.
Currently, I am having some religious issue related to all of this. I realized this Sunday that when I pray about our M I often thank God for a husband who loves me "as best he can" which is true and it is equally true that I often don't feel loved. How sad.
Case in point... Our church is offering Italian lessons and H was really excited about this. I said, "oh too bad I have cheering practice with DD8 that night." He decided to take the class which is fine but he never expressed regret that we couldn't do it together nor did he even sound as if he gave a sh!t whether I was interested in it or not. Also, about two months ago I sent him an email about some ballroom dance classes that were starting in the fall for 6weeks on a night we could attend and he just let that one drop even though he had said a long time ago that he would be interested in taking dance lessons together. I don't care if he takes the class I am just getting tired of having every bid for togetherness blocked.
We went to dinner Saturday night. It was nice. H talked incessantly about the kids or his newly discovered high cholesterol and the need to change his diet. Any time I tried to bring up an "us" topic he was noncommittal and moved on. Our neighbors are splitting up after one year of M - I don't plan to leave but am I doomed to an emotional divorce?
I don't know how much longer I can stay emotionally investested with very little pay off. So much for staying positive and acting "as if."
This reminds me of something I read a few years ago in Oprah magazine when my husband was still alive. It had a profound effect on me. Turns out it's from John Gottman's book The Relationship Cure. Here's a summary of the principle:
Quote: Introducing the concept of the "emotional bid," which he calls the fundamental unit of emotional connection, Gottman shows that all good relationships are built through a process of making and receiving successful bids. These bids range from a quick question, a look, or a comment to the most probing and intimate ways we communicate. Gottman's research strongly suggests that people in happy relationships make bidding and responding to bids a high priority in their lives, and he has discovered the fascinating secrets behind mastering the bidding process. Those who do so tend to "turn toward" bids from others, whereas most problems in relationships stem fro either "turning away" or "turning against" bids for connection.
Presenting examples of bidding, Gottman teaches readers how to assess their strengths and weaknesses in bidding, as well as those of the important people in their lives, and how to improve where necessary. He draws on the latest research to show readers how their brains' unique emotional command systems, as well as their emotional heritage -- their upbringing, life experiences, and enduring vulnerabilities -- affect how they make and receive bids, and how to make adjustments. He then introduces a set of enjoyable and remarkably effective ways to deepen connections by finding shared meaning and honoring one another's dreams.
I haven't looked into this book (I'm burned out on books at the moment), but I think this is kind of what you're talking about, k. Right?
your note: You mentioned Dance class...he let it drop
I begged my W to attend dance classes with me for the first couple years of my marriage...she was not interested or said we didn't need that. I was so upset/pissed....that is recent year's she brought it up and I just ignored it.
My wife has spent so much time being non-sexual...I had to shutdown to keep from going crazy. I have little desire to spend anytime with her....for example this summer all the kids were at Grandma's for a couple of weeks. We had relations once....didn't speak about it, the session was silent...never discussed it again. I didn't try to spend a lot of time with her during this period, why...she doesn't want me
Right you are. I have that book. I thought it had great points. I too am a little burned out on the bibliotherapy lately.
John,
How sad. I understand how you can get where you are with things. I am getting to the point where I am starting to mentally strategize how I can make myself as busy as I can in the evenings to avoid interaction with H. Why? Cause it matters little what I do one way or the other. I am getting more and more to the point where I feel that I don't cause our downturns nor our upturns. Nothing I do or say has any substantial impact for any substantial length of time. When I am making every effort we might communicate better and H is often happier because I am busting my @ss to speak his LL. Things around the house are pleasant. When I am not making much of an effort things aren't bad they are just kind of sad and quiet. The problem is that then it all degenerates into me getting snappy with everyone because I am a flesh and blood woman with actual feelings and I really do love H and I really do want to meet his needs and I really do want my needs met too. They ought to call the book the "Conundrum of a Sex Starved Marriage."
Quote: Case in point... Our church is offering Italian lessons and H was really excited about this. I said, "oh too bad I have cheering practice with DD8 that night." He decided to take the class which is fine but he never expressed regret that we couldn't do it together nor did he even sound as if he gave a sh!t whether I was interested in it or not. Also, about two months ago I sent him an email about some ballroom dance classes that were starting in the fall for 6weeks on a night we could attend and he just let that one drop even though he had said a long time ago that he would be interested in taking dance lessons together. I don't care if he takes the class I am just getting tired of having every bid for togetherness blocked.
Karen, I recognize these situations/thought patterns. It sounds very much similar to the earlier years in our relationship. The continuance of which led to my eventual emotional disconnect in our marriage. You seem to be feeling that same sense of "I'm not important to him" that began to permeate my being. It's hard to observe the excitement he has about the things he finds interesting, while noticing the lack of that excitement towards you and those things you find interesting and want to share with him. True?
The pattern you reference above is one we also exhibited. If NOP was interested in something, he made the arrangements, executed the plans and I often played cheerleader to it - because I wanted him to enjoy it. If it was something I was interested in, I would propose it, but not follow through with the planning and execution because I kept waiting for him to be as excited about it as I was. Where was my cheerleader, kwim? Without his reciprocal excitement, it wasn't fun for me and I would just let it wither on the vine. At the time, he probably just figured it wasn't that important to me, otherwise I would have followed through with it. Big seeds of misunderstanding.
I remember you referencing the all guy trip he does and your feelings of being hurt that you don't see that same excitement from him towards you. I bet that you would't be so jealous of his guy trip, if you ever got to experience the same sort of emotions from him toward anything the two of you were planning together.
I don't think your husband lacks love for you. What he probably has is a streak of self-centeredness.
Quote:
We went to dinner Saturday night. It was nice. H talked incessantly about the kids or his newly discovered high cholesterol and the need to change his diet. Any time I tried to bring up an "us" topic he was noncommittal and moved on. Our neighbors are splitting up after one year of M - I don't plan to leave but am I doomed to an emotional divorce?
No, you're not doomed, because you are armed with knowledge. I don't know that starting a relationship talk is best done while out dining.
Think it through, Karen. Write it down. Flesh it out. Get to the place where you can put it fully into words rather than trying to convey it while sitting in the puddle of inexpressible emotion.
My poor choice was to continue to suck it up, with the occasional emotional outburst, and bury the hurt and resentment deep and let if grow for a couple of decades.
I know that it's not fun, or romantic to feel like you have to fight for the basics of a relationship. The Harleys recommend a minimum of 15 hours of togetherness every week. That might be the way to approach it - scheduled togetherness. Which initially may be as exciting and bonding as scheduled sex.
How much time do the two of you get alone with each other every week?
How about saying, "We have (whatever evening) free to spend together, I'd like to hear your ideas for an activity that evening." Let your H suggest activities that interest him, choose an option that interests you and go from there.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
I do want to clarify one thing though. During our dinner out we happened to be eating at the restaurant we had our first date in and I hadn't been back since (H has been there for business lunch) so I brought up "us" in the context of nostalgia not in the context of discussing big R stuff.
I am glad that you understand where I am coming from. I have gotten feedback in the past that people think I am trying to "script" H so we can have a romance novel perfect exchange. It isn't that. It is that there are innumberable responses that might make me feel like I mattered at all and yet none come out of H's mouth.
Yes, I waited to hear H say that he would be free on Tuesday nights for six weeks so that I could register us for the dance class. Probably shouldn't have. OTOH - I didn't want to drag an unwilling partner there like I often have into my bed. KWIM?
Yes - resentment does eventually lead to disconnect. I am struggling now to decide what the least painful option is. Disconnect and lead my own life side by side with H in a parallel universe OR bring up the R YET AGAIN and proceed to torture H with discussions where he feels like he failed.
We don't really have anything called a free evening. For H to take the Italian he will have to take the boys to scouts, run to his class, run back and pick them up. I will be taking the girls to cheering which overlaps scouts and the class. To have taken the dancing class we would have needed to do similar gyrations on Tuesday rather than Thursday but it is a slightly lighter day. With four with ADHD and poor academic skills in community college, one in 8th grade tackling geometry and other high level classes, one third grader with iffy math skills and iffy interest in school and the baby any time together at all is carefully planned and executed like a battle plan in a world war.
Silly, but true.
Oh yes, our "time together" per week is basically whatever we can grab at the end of the day - an hour or two on the couch in the evening and the occasional dinner out. Once in a while we go away over night but we haven't since I was pregnant. We are going away for a weekend in November to a marriage encounter weekend. Right now I'm thinkin "so what" about that - it's just me dragging him to something because I'm not happy. He is happy with the status quo. Maybe it is just MY problem.
karen, Are there parents you can trade off with? I know trying to find somebody weekly to watch our kids so H and I can have a date night has been a bust so far. I'm rowing the same busy boat you are.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
Oh, getting sitting time isn't so much the issue. Our older ones will watch the younger ones for $$ and would even do it on a weekly basis. The problem is that the older ones need so much tutoring, then there are activities, then commutes etc... It sounds like excuse making but it really isn't. The kids in the house aren't the only kids either. We also have grown foster kids whom we cook Sunday dinner for etc...
All that being said...H and I COULD HAVE worked out going to the dance class, there might have even been a way to work out going to the Italian class together BUT he just didn't care enough about whether or not we could do it together to talk about the logistic. He didn't talk about anything. He just chose the Italian over the dance. He just picked the one activity that I couldn't do over the one that I could. He just chose the one that he wanted over the one we had discussed twice in the past. See what I'm saying?
