Quote: made me wonder...the song's always been a bit creepy to me with all the innuendos...
Thank you for pointing that out. I know that there are people on this board dealing with childhood sexual abuse (myself included) and in the spirit of support I changed my signature. I do not want anything I post here to harmful to anyone trying to traverse such sensitive terrain.
As far as diagnosing your W, I am careful not to see my own sitch everywhere. I know that everyone has not been abused and don't try to pigeonhole people.
It helps to know that others have been where you are and can shine a light on where you are headed. I hope that you get that from being here.
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
GEL, we did the interviews as you suggest, and like you, gave great credence to those who actually returned calls...unfortunately, you've read the results.
I guess there's just no hope afterall...I can't keep paying for other people's cars and reading everyone's books...I have work to do that gets in the way.
I was hoping someone here could point me in a "new" direction. It seems it's just an endless loop of the same-ole same-ole.
What HAS worked for the readers out there? Any wives out there in the LD situation that found a way that works? I'm not talking the 1-2/week types of LD, I'm talking the 2-3/year types...
The only couple I'm aware of on this board who have turned their sitch around permanently and to the satisfaction of both parties is the NOPs. Click on Mrs NOP's name in one of her posts and search for all her posts. Find your way back to the beginning of their story. (Hope you have a fast computer; searching back posts can take a while.) You will find hard work and a solid success story in their tale. It's the only solid success story I'm aware of.
It does sound like you are bit jaded, but I don't think anyone could blame you for that....all too often we do get ripped off and feel like we're wasting our time.
I hate to say it, but I really do think the key to counseling...is two-fold....#1 finding the right counselor for you (and your W), and #2 the willingness of the people seeking out the counseling.
I noticed recently when it came to counseling that "I" was doing something that wasn't very productive. "I" was relying on our C to ferret out my H's problems, or hoping he'd somehow volunteer information.....well, there was no real way that was going to happen.
Our C may have her hunches that certain things are going on...but much of a counselors job isn't to tell you "this is what's happening", it's to get you to realize it yourself...because then you will be more open to working on it. So, our C wasn't going to flat-out say to my H, H....you're doing xyz, so you need to do these things to fix it. If she'd do that, he might follow-through, but he wouldn't necessarily really understand what the problem is...and he'd end up right back where he started from.
Naturally...he's not going to volunteer what the problems are either, that would mean he'd have to communicate the things that make him feel most vulnerable and weak...and that's what he will not do....that's what's preventing him from the intimacy we need in our M...emotional and physical.
So...it's left up to me to bring things up in counseling, whether he likes it or not. When I see an issue...you bet it's going to be brought up and it's going to get put on the table for discussion. If I need something and he's talking big but not following-through, my disappointment will be brought up in our C session. I refuse to let these things be swept under the carpet any longer because I'm scared he'll withdraw and ruin all the progress we've made so far. Now is the time for me to start stepping out of my comfort zone of just voicing my needs (which used to be outside my comfort zone...but I've been doing it so long now that I'm now comfortable with it) and start challenging him when he's not meeting them...confront him in a way....which is what I'm definitely not good at and certainly not comfortable doing. I'm not good at standing up for myself with those closest to me....but you know what...I'm learning to get darned good at it now, and now, it's not so tough.
So...we keep going to counseling, I keep stepping out of my comfort zone and challenging him...and you know what's starting to happen? He's starting to actually talk about these things more easily....he's starting to be more attentive (very slowly) to my needs at home too...outside of the C's office.
I've been jaded too...still am quite often to be honest...I have to push past it though because one of us has to step out of their comfort zone... and he won't be the one to do it first, so if I want to save my M I must do what it takes. We went through several C's first though before we found the one that was a good fit for us...and that we both really like.
GEL, I know this wasn't directed at me, but thanks anyway. It perhaps is giving me a little hope, and maybe I can find the motivation to get back in the ring so to speak. I guess seeing progress is what keeps you going?
For me, MrsGGB's statement that she was doing all the sex stuff to keep me from getting grumpy...not because she wanted to do it, not for her, not because she wanted to celebrate our bond, but because she felt she had to do it to keep me here...well that just let all the air out of my tires, and I haven't been able to find even a flicker of that loving feeling I had for her since. I'd love to get that feeling back, but I think it is going to take a change on her part to rekindle it. I'm having a hard time imagining her picking up the torch and running with it though, and frankly I can't find the motivation to do it myself. Where to from here? I don't know, and I don't know that I care much.
Hey, if ANYTHING I post gives you hope it's directed at you too!
Got a question for you though....have you flat-out asked your W how long she realistically thinks that someone can maintain loving feelings for someone else if their needs (whatever they are) aren't being met? I did ask my H that at one point, although he didn't realize I was directing it at us and stepped into an honest response of "not very long".
This week I learned something very intersting about my H. I have asked him in the past if he truly knew what love was (for him)...he said yes. Our C however asked him something different this week....."what do you think love is?" I thought I had asked this of him before, but perhaps not quite that way....his response? "A Decision"
For my H he makes a decision to love me. Sure, there are things about me that he finds attractive/appealing/desireable etc....but for him it's a decision to love me.
For me...it's not a decision, it's just something I do. I decided to marry him, I decided to stay here....I didn't decide to love him....it's a feeling I have, there's not a choice to it. I could choose to leave him too...but I that wouldn't stop my feelings towards him.
So...we are dealing with this situation in a from polar ends...and I just found this out Wednesday. We're planning to spend some time together this weekend...I plan on exploring this topic further to make sure I'm clear on what exactly he meant. However, I can see how someone as controlled as my H is....would consider something like this a "decision". That would mean he has control over that emotion...and lets face it my H is a control freak about himself, if he had a feeling that was spontaneous and out of his control...he'd be vulnerable. Hang on...I think I'm actually beginning to wrap my brain around this a bit. I'll have to explore it further though.
"Love is a decision" is a tenet of Michele W-D's work (and many others'). Feelings come and go. Mature folks make a decision to love. That doesn't mean that they can control their feelings, but they control their actions so as to promote loving feelings and they control their thoughts, which are the source of their feelings.
H gave the right answer. Don't give him grief for it!
If you really think that your feelings just happen, and you don't choose to love, then I'll just have to quote a line from an old Adrienne Rich poem: "Only she who says she did not choose, is the loser in the end."
I'm not giving him grief over is take of love is a decision...that's who he is, that's how he works. Why would I give him grief over that?
My point is....he and I view "love" differently....that's ok. But not having realized that in the past probably made things harder for me....now that I know he views it as a decision I can understand some of his actions (or lack thereof) better.
All I want to do is talk to him and get a better understanding of his take on it. Not try to change his perspective to mine. But what's the harm in talking...perhaps if we do, then he'll better understand my perspective too....and understand my frustrations a bit better as well....you know, perhaps see what it looks like on my side of the fence. IMPO that's only trying to get to know each other better.
Now if I were going to talk to him and try to get him to understand that "Love" is a feeling that no one can control...that it isn't a decision (which is not what I'm going to do) THAT, IMPO would be giving him grief. THAT would be me saying....your wrong! That's not ever my intention. He is who he is...I'm not out to change that, I'm out to understand it better.
& Dyke...I don't care what poem you quote....for me, "love" isn't a choice. Perhaps for you it is....the actions you take from those feelings (dating, marriage, living together etc)....for me, those are the choices the feelings aren't. So why are you giving me grief for my take on it?
