Learning to trust myself II

[Burgbud]

Is there anything you can think of that your W could have done to make things clearer besides moving to dissolve your M?

I've thought myself completely around in a circle on this one so it's time to drive a stake in the ground right here and just start typing. But before I go too far afield and forget all about this, I called my aunt and uncle last Friday. The ones who have been involved in Retrouvaille since forever and are district leaders or some such thing for Texas and Louisiana Retrouvaille. Point being, they are extremely pro-marriage and have worked with many couples in even more distressing circumstances than what we read about on this board (believe it or not). I explained briefly the question you asked and they understood how it related to me. I asked them, when a person has tried talking about it but hasn't gotten their needs met in a M and it seems unlikely their spouse is going to make the serious changes needed to make things work, how do you get their attention? They both answered with almost no hesitation, "Sometimes you have to file for divorce. Sometimes that's the only thing that works." I was surprised, but there you go.

Now, the actual question was, what could my wife have done short of what she did to make things clear. I started by wondering what she could have done to make me feel very loved, so much that I would have been willing to make big changes in my personality to make her feel loved in return. To make a long story incrementally shorter, I realized that we had talked about what we both needed from the M. The only answers I could ever come up with involved sex. More frequent, spicier, whatever. Problem is, that was the wrong answer. It was the wrong answer because I didn't know how I wanted to be loved so I couldn't come up with anything better. I was self-contained and content and didn't have a thought in my mind about being loved more. I would have been content to be hated less (that's an exaggeration but you get the point).

After now having spent time thinking what I'd like a new R to be like, I can come up with several ways I'd like to be loved. And none of them involve sex. I'm confident the sex will take care of itself if the rest of the R is good. (That's a worrying thing to say...maybe my Y chromosome is rusted shut...gotta get that thing checked.)

If I could go back to when she asked the old (dumbass) me that question, the new me would whisper this in her ear: do what you did that first year you dated. Within reason. We can't stay up all night or invite our college friends over to drink beer and play cards and watch Magnum P.I. reruns. But she used to say her favorite thing was laying her head on my chest. That would be a good place to start; saying and doing it. Maybe brushing up against me more. Maybe putting her hand on mine if we were sitting together. And the hardest one of all, maybe she could have found it within herself to just be happier more when I was around.

What kind of little things did you used to do when you were so in love with him? Do you think he knows how he wants to be loved?

And sadly, I'm not at all guaranteeing that would have worked. I would have liked it at first and then probably have become suspicious. I don't know how long she would have had to do it with zero expectations before I felt special again and wanted to return her affection with interest. Maybe longer than she could have taken it. But as you said, you don't have to do it forever and you can stop at any time.

And if you try it and it doesn't work you can tell him you're filing for divorce. There's a 180 for ya.

[KimDownUnder]

But she used to say her favorite thing was laying her head on my chest. That would be a good place to start; saying and doing it. Maybe brushing up against me more. Maybe putting her hand on mine if we were sitting together. And the hardest one of all, maybe she could have found it within herself to just be happier more when I was around.

My god BB can I borrow your wants and put them into my H's head if only to find a guy that would like that intamacy, H always said I was too touchy feely. You did say something that bothered me though...
I don't know how long she would have had to do it with zero expectations before I felt special again and wanted to return her affection with interest.
Can I just say on this point when you give to someone lovingly like holding their hand or other terms of affection just to show you care if it is not returned at least a bit it makes you feel very insecure and that the other person doesn't have the same feelings for you which hurts. Just wanted to point that bit out. I could rub my H's back or massage him as that was doing something he enjoyed and I loved to touch him but see snuggling on the couch or too many kisses or hugs for the hell of it, then that was smothering to him. I also wanted sex more than him so sometimes doing all the touchy feely things with no thoughts of sex doesn't always mean that sex will happen along on it's own either when you are not both connecting on the same level it's never gonna happen. Sorry for the doom and gloom but that is my opinion. i am willing to hear comments against what i said though...
Heather I am still following your thread got a bit off track then all I can say to you is be true to you and look after you first, if H wants to work at this he needs to show it you as you have done all the work so far sometimes you gotta say I've tried hard and what will be now will be....Sorry this seems to be the same advice I am giving everyone at the moment but it is where my head is at and I understand not everyone is at the same point. (((()))))Hugs to you and keep strong....KDU

[Burgbud]

I don't know how long she would have had to do it with zero expectations before I felt special again and wanted to return her affection with interest.
Can I just say on this point when you give to someone lovingly like holding their hand or other terms of affection just to show you care if it is not returned at least a bit it makes you feel very insecure and that the other person doesn't have the same feelings for you which hurts.

I couldn't agree more, KDU. It's just that it would have taken a lot to break my out of the rut I was in. That may have done it...I can't even say for sure.

BTW Heather G...it's about time for you to have some input in your thread...

[heatherg]

I know, I definitely have to update. I've been so engrossed with everyone elses' threads that there's not usually much time left over to write, lol.
I will post more tonight, but for now, I want to post something specific.

I have a friend (old coworker) who is going through a D right now, her and her H had a few encounters with a third person (also married and her and her H are into swinging) and my friend's H and that other woman ended up becoming sexually intimate when my friend wasn't around and things just escalated. In addition to that, she had been unfaithful to him prior to than one time and he to her. Her unfaithfulness resulted in an abortion that he found out about by accident. A mess. Anyway, everytime my H and I discuss that situation, we argue because I already know a threesome is something he would like to do. I don't know how serious he is about it, I don't think very as he's never outwardly asked me, but serious enough to actually discuss it with me as a viable option. It drives me freaking crazy with anger. I told him last night that my friend's H claimed to her that she had problems with intimacy and H sort of snorted, like how could she have problems with intimacy if she is so open sexually? I explained my point of view that intimacy is not sex...he said I know, so it's not possible to have an intimate threesome? Wow. So I asked what his definition of intimate was. He got uncomfortable. He said a connection, an emotional closeness. Really? So not only do you think sex with a third person is a viable option, but an emotional connection to a third person is also a viable option. Hmm. I said, "you know, it pisses me off b/c when we discuss this, we are not talking about a 'third person', we are talking about a 'second woman'. If I were to mention bringing a second man into our bedroom, you would be ok with that?" He said "I certainly woundn't become enraged by the idea...". Yeah right!! The guy who can't forive me for kissing someone else is going to be fine with witnessing another guy...ok, you get the idea. Bullsh!t!!

Can you tell I'm touchy on the subject? Well I'm glad if you've deduced that, but I gotta say, my reactions give it away to the point where it doesn't take a genius. Hence my irritation that he cannot seem to keep some of his stupid thoughts to himself. ARGH. Don't get me wrong, it's one thing to fantasize about it and talk about it in a fantasy sort of way, but only when I felt comfortable he's not suggesting that it's something that could actually fly in our M. What good could possibly come of that? How would it benefit our M?

[heatherg]

I just re-read my post and the fire in my words reminded my of my coaching session with Chuck. I told him that I was particularly touchy to being controlled by my H because I am a spunky girl and I don't want to lose that. I'm not exactly sure what he meant but he said something like 'I don't think that's going to happen. I can tell just by talking to you that you've got a lot of spunk'. I hope that's a good thing, lol.....

[NYsurvivor]

he said I know, so it's not possible to have an intimate threesome? Wow. So I asked what his definition of intimate was. He got uncomfortable. He said a connection, an emotional closeness. Really? So not only do you think sex with a third person is a viable option, but an emotional connection to a third person is also a viable option.

OMG, he's just agreed to your A.

"No further questions, your Honor. The Defense rests."

If I were to mention bringing a second man into our bedroom, you would be ok with that?" He said "I certainly woundn't become enraged by the idea...". Yeah right!! The guy who can't forive me for kissing someone else is going to be fine with witnessing another guy...ok, you get the idea. Bullsh!t!!

Probably because he believes that it would be just sex, permitable because of your agreement to it, and feels that there would not be consequences; that he'd not get involved beyond that. Compare that self assuredness we all have with the doubts we may cultivate about others: "Well I know I'd be strong enough to not give in, but I don't know if I can say the same about my partner". You know what I mean?

However, be it known that there can be consequences. You've posted one such case, I recall someone I knew whose wife wanted to try threesomes, and at first it was sexually exciting to the guy to see his wife with another man, but when in time she craved more, he began to express concerns to me that he was losing her. There can be other consequences, it's a Pandora's Box. To be in the swinger's lifestyle, you really, really have to be able to detach from your partner and let go.

[Tambo]

NYS is right (as usual) on this one. Bringing a third person into the bedroom only works if the marriage has a strong foundation and both partners agree that it is just for sex and fluff. Again...the marriage must have an unbreakable foundation.

HeatherG...I have to warn you....if the conversation keeps coming up wheter it is 1x a week...1x a month...or whatever...your H will feed off that fantasy. You must never feed into this fantasy. Communicate it how you want. You can ignore it when he brings it up...you can put the hand up because the face ain't listening..or you can get in his face and say, "NEVER". What ever your style is.....don't feed the fantasy. If H keeps bringing it up that means he is thinking about it and eventually it will envelope his thinking about you and your sex life. Don't let him use it as a tool you "maybe work things out". It is a trap.

Now...just because I know all this...doesn't necessaraily mean I've been there..................right.

Good luck HeatherG

[Jabez]

Is it possible that H is using this as a way of getting back at you? Viewing this as an affair of his own, but since you are there, it's really not as bad as what you did?

I've read that affairs are the triangulation of relationships. Three people involved. It's what soap operas are made of.

I'm a simple guy, two's company, three's a crowd. I wouldn't do it.

[Burgbud]

Dang Heather, I don't know if your thread is more therapeutic for you or for me.

I'm about to do a lot of projecting. Take what's worthwhile and ignore the rest. Feel free to ask questions about any of it. I hope it comes out the way I intend but I'm just gonna push forward so if something doesn't seem right, call me on it.

I warn the reader that, as a TV disclaimer would probably say, what follows is a frank discussion of sex. I don't think it's going to be over the top (especially on a BB with a Sexual Issues forum) but different people have "the top" in different places.


...I already know a threesome is something he would like to do. I don't know how serious he is about it, I don't think very as he's never outwardly asked me, but serious enough to actually discuss it with me as a viable option.

I think he's like me (well, old me, but it's too tedious to keep making the distinction) in that he's based a lot of his ego on his sexual ability. His sexual life is very important to him not only because he enjoys it but because it's the best (maybe the only?) we he knows to make you happy. He's introspective about it; he thinks about what he likes and why and what he might like that he hasn't done yet and how might he make it happen. That's why he had a "favorites" folder. That's why he holds onto this threesome idea as a somewhat viable option.

I don't think he's very serious about it. I think he likes the idea in theory but knows the reality has just too many problems. But he can't quite let it go because it's a sexual accomplishment he'd like to have on his resume. Maybe it wouldn't be as fulfilling as he'd like, but that's okay too. At least he'd know.

W and I had a similar thing where we would go to Vegas, find an interested lady (maybe a stripper or, well, the implementation details are always the hard part, you know?), bring her back to our room and she and W would carry on while I was present but not participating. See, we even had a plan! But it was one of those things where there was just enough to it to make it a little bit real, but essentially no way it could actually happen. One of the things I've figured out (due mostly to reading) in my transition since the bomb is that it's okay to have fantasies and dreams that you know will never, ever happen. You don't have to just abandon them. It's often good to have that tension of there being something you want that you know you'll never have. But that takes a maturity which I lacked until recently. I think if I'd have accepted that before talking about it with W we might have kept it at the level of an interesting fantasy. But that little sliver of realness kind of mucked it up. It made her consider it too much; some of that she liked and some she didn't. I think overall it was more bad than good.


So I asked what his definition of intimate was. He got uncomfortable. He said a connection, an emotional closeness.

Okay, fine. But how does he get that intimacy and emotional closeness during sex? I had an epiphany on this recently (while considering an earlier post in your thread, actually). Especially toward the end, W would tell me she felt no intimacy from me during sex. She felt like she was just a body to me. I knew in my heart that wasn't right so I tried arguing with her. But I certainly wasn't giving her the intimacy she wanted, so where was I getting my intimacy from? (okay, here goes...in for a dime, in for a dollar...) I got it from oral sex. Performing it. If you think about it I gotta believe most folks will agree that's pretty intimate. And beyond that, I think I got my intimacy from anything that made her kind of open and/or vulnerable. It made me feel loved and trusted that she could do that for me.

Problem is she wasn't getting the intimacy she wanted. So as time went on she felt less and less like she was sharing something intimate with me and more and more like I was taking something from her. It's like KDU said a few posts ago...when you give something lovingly to show you care but it's not returned, it really hurts. But my problem was always that I figured it was fair if I was willing to do what I wanted her to do. It took a leap for me to figure out that fair is more if she does what I want, then I do what she wants. This was doubly hard for me in sexual matters because if she climaxes, then she got what she wanted, right? Okay, please stop laughing now. Anyway, that's where I put my focus because that's what I figured she really wanted. But I would have been better served to focus on intimacy and closeness the way she likes to feel it.

The reason I bring this up is in hopes that if you don't see intimacy in your sex life, maybe you can believe that he does. But you can't be the provider forever, he's going to have to learn to give you intimacy the way you need it as well.


If I were to mention bringing a second man into our bedroom, you would be ok with that?" He said "I certainly woundn't become enraged by the idea...".

I believe him for a reason I mentioned earlier: he's introspective about sex and is willing to consider almost anything. Having said that, he would only consider this idea for the smallest sliver of a second before knowing he doesn't want anything to do with it. But just considering it wouldn't enrage him. I guarantee you there is no way in he11 he could actually deal with even the thought of it for more than five seconds. It's the last thing he wants. He would hate it.


Don't get me wrong, it's one thing to fantasize about it and talk about it in a fantasy sort of way, but only when I felt comfortable he's not suggesting that it's something that could actually fly in our M.

Exactly. He needs to let it go and enjoy it for the fantasy it is. Then it can be something fun.


What good could possibly come of that?

None.

How would it benefit our M?

It won't. Quite the opposite. Don't ever agree to it. Next time it comes up you could try, "It's exciting to think about but it will never happen. I don't want to share you any more than you want to share me."

[heatherg]

think he's like me (well, old me, but it's too tedious to keep making the distinction) in that he's based a lot of his ego on his sexual ability. His sexual life is very important to him not only because he enjoys it but because it's the best (maybe the only?) we he knows to make you happy.

Well perhaps I should explain to him how this works. See, he left for San Diego today for 10 days. We would have had sex last night and were headed in that direction pretty much all evening. UNTIL we had this discussion. Warm feelings-gone. Sexual feelings-gone. So, guess who didn't get any last night? See H, see how that works? If you like sex and you pride yourself on your ability to please me, then you probably shouldn't *displease* me where sex is concerned by talking favorably about things that will never happen and that I've already expressed my negative feelings about. Yesterday evening he said something, well, sexual in nature let's say. It started like this "I keep thinking about....". After the threesome discussion, it was all I could do not to say coyly, "Remember earlier when you said all you could think about was....[change in tone of voice] well, think about some other guy and me doing that. And tell me again that you're suggesting not another woman, but simply a third party, either a man or woman. Tell me you'd be able to get that visual out of your head and go on with life as usual." But I didn't say that. Maybe I should have.

what he might like that he hasn't done yet and how might he make it happen

This could potentially be a long list as my H was a virgin when we met. Can I just head that off by telling him to get over it, lol???

I don't think he's very serious about it. I think he likes the idea in theory but knows the reality has just too many problems.

I agree that he is probably not entirely serious. Yeah, too many problems. Not the least of which would be how does an anti-social guy even meet a girl that he'd consider bringing home to wifey? And not being very proficient with conversation or social niceties, how would he go from point A to point B? And geez, then there's what to say afterward...um, thanks. Yeah, way too many problems. Oh but hey, if I can talk Heather into the idea, then she could handle the details......

if she climaxes, then she got what she wanted, right? Okay, please stop laughing now.

I don't think that's funny at all. I would tend to think on the same lines. H knows if I'm not comfortable, not feelin it for whatever reason, the climax isn't going to happen. So, if I do, he knows all the pieces of the puzzle were there. You're not so crazy IMO.

The reason I bring this up is in hopes that if you don't see intimacy in your sex life, maybe you can believe that he does. But you can't be the provider forever, he's going to have to learn to give you intimacy the way you need it as well.

I feel plenty of intimacy. That is until he cheapens it by suggesting that he could have the same intimacy with some third party.

See, for me, I cheated on my H. But I never set out to do that b/c I physically or emotionally *wanted* someone other than my H. That seems to be the case for my H toward me, however. And for him to say that out loud sucks. That would have been like me actually considering having an A and telling H about it, although never doing it. The damage is nearly as great. Granted, actually doing it brings more problems than not acting on it obviously, but the emotional disturbance is almost just as great isn't it?? Am I crazyily oversensitive??

I guarantee you there is no way in he11 he could actually deal with even the thought of it for more than five seconds. It's the last thing he wants. He would hate it.

I know, and to drive that point home and make sure he understands how *I* feel about thinking about him with another woman, I really wanted to say the above statement to him.

Next time it comes up you could try, "It's exciting to think about but it will never happen. I don't want to share you any more than you want to share me."

Good idea! And maybe mutter under my breath "so don't bring it up again you sick ba@tard"...lol, just kidding.