Learning to trust myself II

[NYsurvivor]

Last Friday at work, Larry didn't have something go his way so he gave his co-worker the silent treatment, or if he did say anything, they were very short dismissive statements. But the Williams account needed tending to right away, because the execs were there for a meeting and were awaiting the report. So his co-worker Tara went to Larry's office to tell him that he needed to get to the presentation, then went back to the conference room, but Larry doesn't show up, so she goes back to Larry's office to tell him that his attendance was being requested, and Larry kept not paying attention to her while she was talking to him. So Tara says, "Are you intending not to show and me have to carry this by myself? Do you think I'm being unreasonable in this?" And Larry looks at Tara and says, "Yes." And no matter what else Tara said, Larry just kept on being a jerk with his answers. There was no way Tara was getting her point across, Larry wasn't going to answer her honestly, as he was answering whichever way would frustrate her and her purpose.

But finally, Larry shows up for the presentation, but passes on doing anything and afterwards, Tara finds him there staring out the window.

Larry got fired that afternoon.

his parents unexpectedly showed, in addition to his sister and her two kids who we planned to have

Wow... they just invited themselves over? Reminds me of my first in-laws. Last summer, as per usual, they came up from Florida to stay with their daughter, my first ex, "V". They usually come up in July and stay till school starts for the kids in September. V told them, prior to this trip, that she couldn't have them stay as house guests that long anymore and told them she'd be happy to have them stay for two weeks, that would be fine. You see, her mom drives her, and everyone around her, nuts (her dad was and is very passive and always submitted himself to her behavior out of fear of losing her, though every now and then he blasts her as being stupid. His line to her that I've heard him repeat over the last twenty-five years is, "What are you gonna be? Stupid all your life?" Nice, huh? Apparently though, now that she's in her 80's, the answer turns out to be "yes" I guess). She's insecure and plays the martyr, and gets enraged easily and always, and I mean always without exception, ruins every occasion with her grudge holding rants and overbearing, abusive ways. Doesn't take much to get her going. The friendliest of comments can trigger something that gets her blood boiling. She's hyper-critical of others and very self-centered. She stabs her friends in the back by talking against them when they're not around. I've seen people get up from the table and leave the room because of her ravings. V loves her mom, but can't take her for more than 24 hours, let alone two weeks, let alone the whole summer.

So they came up around July 4th, and ignored their host's request and stayed until September anyway. And during that time, because V's mom can't get around well anymore, they stayed perpetually camped at V's house and instead of getting out to visit with all their acquaintances here over the summer, they invited their friends over to see them throughout their stay, without asking V first if they could. In other words, they took over V's home and acted as if it was theirs. This massive interruption in V's plans and the kids' plans for the summer, plus the aggravation and annoyance her mom was daily putting her through, plus the umbrage felt at being made into a doormat, had V up the wall and finally venting off to her mom, telling her that she needed her house back, that it was unfair to ignore her request to limit the stay, that V has other things she wanted to do that summer and couldn't because she had to stay put to take care of them as guests. Instead of understanding how they were wearing on her daughter, her mom retorted by laying a guilt trip on V, as that's her way of manipulating people, saying, "What kind of a daughter are you? After everything we've done for you! I'm 82 now, and won't be around for much longer, you know! You should be happy we're here!" and sent V off in tears.

V was on the phone with me the other day and mentioned that her dad's health is failing, and started crying, sobbing, "If he dies first, then my mom is going to want to live here... I can't handle that... "

This may not be exactly what your in-laws are like, but the attitude that it's OK to visit upon people without calling or being invited first is kinda arrogant and thoughtless to me, and my first in-laws really exemplify that. Drawing from my experience, it sounds as if your in-laws reason that if their daughter and her kids were invited, then it's a "family" get-together and so they're to be welcomed, ignoring the fact that they weren't. My dad was kinda saw things like that too, but I always felt his reasoning was off and very self-centered. Then again, he was abusive too. Things were always "my way or the highway" with him, one of his fav sayings.

Gee Heather, I don't know if this post is helpful or a vent for me or both?

[Burgbud]

How was karate?



Well, H has definitely displayed his old self this weekend.

Well, crap.


So, he gets up but doesn't help with anything and after we finish eating (H wouldn't eat), H has his head down on the table.

Why? Was it 5:30 in the AM? Did he get to bed late? If not he really needs to check and see if he has a sleep disorder.



I just ignored it as though it wasn't happening, kept talking to him, asking questions and making statements the same way I would have any other time. Is that a good reaction do you think?

I wouldn't take my advice before the book's, but yours seems like a reasonable approach, at least for now. Being direct with him about emotional abuse his first day back doesn't seem likely to bring good results. I think you're setting yourself up nicely to be able to say, in the near future, "Look, I've been calm and have given you every opportunity to address some issues but you haven't. Now we need to talk." And bring up whatever you need to address. Probably he won't agree that you've been calm, but *you'll* know you have been so you can deflect that if need be.

You're off to a good start regardless of whether he is or not. Give him a few days or a week to consolidate his feces. Look for signs of improvement. Be firm and stand up for yourself. Make him believe it.

I'm looking forward to an uneventful "going to daycare" post tomorrow.

[heatherg]

Gee Heather, I don't know if this post is helpful or a vent for me or both?

Your posts are *always* helpful to me and if they can be helpful to you as well, I'm glad.

Larry got fired that afternoon.

I see what you are trying to accomplish here, you are trying to make me see H's behaviors objectively and to help me realize that anyone would have a problem with those kinds of behaviors, not just me. You are trying to make me feel sane and for that I thank you!!!
At the present time, I'm not ready to fire H however. I don't know why that is, I suppose it doesn't matter, I'm just not ready. I don't know that I'll ever be ready, but again I suppose I can't worry about that. People say they would divorce if their spouse ever cheated on them. We observe every day that some of the same people who may have thought that find themselves thinking otherwise when it actually happens. These people thought they had a boundary. The boundary gets crossed. They forgive. Same with emotional abuse really. Your tolerance tends to expand over time, to the point where I can put up with things that other people wouldn't.

So, WTBS, how do you think *I* handled the situation? H's ways are such that he won't do what I ask while I'm asking. But I notice sometimes him doing the things I've asked at a later time. I really do think he listens, he just has this voice in his head or something that tells him if he "does what I want", then he's being wimpy or something.

The in-law thing, I still don't really know how that transpired. I left at 5pm to get a facial and the plan was that SIL would come over to drop off nephew and we would eat lasagna (easy frozen stuff) and when I got home, they were all there. SIL and MIL are on some diet, so they're cooking their own meal, everyone is everywhere, lol. It's not a problem at all, I am very close with his family and it doesn't bother me, at least it didn't until I saw a pattern with me doing all the dishes from the night before and found myself up with the kids expected to make breakfast and clean up yet again. Then I got irritated, but it honestly had nothing to do with the in-laws.

How was karate?

Awesome, it felt good to be back. My butt muscles are sore today Sensai is having a make-up test sometime in the next couple of weeks, so I should be testing for purple belt. Yey!

Why? Was it 5:30 in the AM? Did he get to bed late? If not he really needs to check and see if he has a sleep disorder.

The thing is, H has always been this way. He stays up late at night and then wonders why he can't get up the next morning.... Answer seems pretty clear to me, so I haven't had much sympathy in the past.....not to mention that historically his staying up late has been tied in with drinking as well, and you won't find a sympathetic fiber in my being. Was that clear enough, lol?? BUT, H claims he *can't* go to sleep earlier. I don't understand that. He says he'll be tired all day and then "wake up" magically later in the evening, say around drinking time, ahem, I mean around 7pm.
I mentioned the sleeping disorder possiblity to him and he didn't really respond. Not dismissive, just like he didn't have anything to say. I'll do some research on it and bring it up in a more concrete way, with some details and a possible course of action for him and if he doesn't bite the bait then oh well. Oh, and I'm getting him vitamins today. Maybe some B vitamins will do his body good.

I think you're setting yourself up nicely to be able to say, in the near future, "Look, I've been calm and have given you every opportunity to address some issues but you haven't. Now we need to talk." And bring up whatever you need to address.

That's a good idea. In order to have some examples of cases where I've "given him every opportunity", I should at least drop a few hints here and there that I find his behavior abusive without necessarily using that word....hmm. I think this is important b/c it will ring a few bells when I bring the situation up, even if he won't admit he's hearing bells. And when he starts to argue with me I can calmly point out the instances I'm talking about.

Be firm and stand up for yourself. Make him believe it.

I'm trying. We're leaving for MI Thursday and we'll be driving his stupid truck even though I have a great SUV with a DVD system for the kids and plenty of room for our stuff. It's so stupid. So, it's hard to make him believe he's no longer in control of me when there's a very obvious sign that he is. Win some, lose some.....should that be my mindset you think? I thought about renting a vehicle. It would be WAY more expensive and I would really rather spend that money on one of many other things, but maybe it's something I *need* to do to establish myself more firmly? I think I have made some good positive steps, so perhaps I should do this to reinforce that?

I'm looking forward to an uneventful "going to daycare" post tomorrow

It was uneventful!!!!!!!!!! Business as usual. D2 asked to ride with H and he said "Daddy isn't going to your school today, mommy and daddy are going to different places. Maybe tomorrow I can take you." Perrrrfect.

[Dmsw4]

You sound very sane Heather. It probably scares the crud out of him.....Keep up the good work

[Jaylyn]

We observe every day that some of the same people who may have thought that find themselves thinking otherwise when it actually happens.

Yes, I was one of those. Isn't it funny how we think we will react when outside a situation as compared to how we react when we are actually IN IT.

[NYsurvivor]

I see what you are trying to accomplish here, you are trying to make me see H's behaviors objectively and to help me realize that anyone would have a problem with those kinds of behaviors, not just me.

Yes, we call it "reframing". It's easier to type.

At the present time, I'm not ready to fire H however.

Well that was really tongue-in-cheek. I really should've just asked at the end of the story, what should happen with Larry? You may not want to fire him, but certainly there's a problem with his attitude and behavior that's very serious.

H's staying in bed, no matter what reason he gives you, is because he just didn't want to help out, and he knew that if he just stayed in bed, you'd take care of whatever needed to be done. The "yeah, yeah" answer-nonsense was immature little kid stuff to thwart whatever you say. The head-on-the-table after breakfast was a demand for attention, as if to re-emphasize how badly he needed his sleep. His playing a board game with the kids instead of helping you clean up goes along with his earlier demonstration of not wanting to help, and knowing that he could excuse his avoidance by claiming that the kids needed to be tended to, that's what he opted to do, because he didn't want to do any household chores. You know that he could've decided to help, telling the kids to hold on, and then tend to the kids. Besides, it didn't matter to him that the kids needed tending to earlier whole you were busy cooking breakfast.

That's not what you want in a partner, is it really, Heather?

I don't know that I'll ever be ready, but again I suppose I can't worry about that.

Well, like it says in the DR book, some people decide they'll struggle along with whatever ails their relationship, or they'll silently put up with it the rest of their lives. Leaving is an option. Take a look at http://www.shirleyglass.com/reflect_relationships2.htm

The boundary gets crossed. They forgive. Same with emotional abuse really. Your tolerance tends to expand over time, to the point where I can put up with things that other people wouldn't.

Don't you think there's a difference between a boundary being transgressed, forgiven, and not repeated, as opposed to one where the boundaries are continually violated and trodden on and the one being violated accepts the repeated transgressions? A lifetime of that leads to what?

I notice sometimes him doing the things I've asked at a later time.

I'll take that over nothing any day.

when I got home, they were all there. SIL and MIL are on some diet, so they're cooking their own meal, everyone is everywhere, lol. It's not a problem at all, I am very close with his family and it doesn't bother me, at least it didn't until I saw a pattern with me doing all the dishes from the night before and found myself up with the kids expected to make breakfast and clean up yet again. Then I got irritated, but it honestly had nothing to do with the in-laws.

Nothing much except that they didn't help clean up, just like hubby!

Heather, they still came over uninvited, taking over. Though you didn't see their "occupation" as a problem, do you see where they're violating boundaries and you are accepting the widening of those boundaries?

I remember once, I think it was my first in-laws, did that to me too, where they came over uninvited because they knew we were having something going on, and there wasn't enough food for them, but they partook of it and the rest of us didn't have what we expected to have. Oink.

I think you're setting yourself up nicely to be able to say, in the near future, "Look, I've been calm and have given you every opportunity to address some issues but you haven't. Now we need to talk." And bring up whatever you need to address.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's a good idea. In order to have some examples of cases where I've "given him every opportunity", I should at least drop a few hints here and there that I find his behavior abusive without necessarily using that word....hmm. I think this is important b/c it will ring a few bells when I bring the situation up, even if he won't admit he's hearing bells. And when he starts to argue with me I can calmly point out the instances I'm talking about.

Uh oh, I can hear H's counter...

Heather: "Look, I've been calm and have given you every opportunity to address some issues but you haven't. Now we need to talk."

Larry: "Oh? We have to talk just because YOU say it's time to talk?"

Heather: "That's not the issue. The issue is it's been bothering me how I wasn't helped out getting things ready the other morning."

Larry: "I told you. I was tired. I needed sleep. Yawn. See? I'm still tired."

Heather: "I know that you were tired, but the thing is, I really could've used your help, tired or not, and that's why I kept coming to you to seek that help. It really would've been great if you could've roused yourself and helped me out. Next time around, it'd be appreciated if you were helpful."

[Dmsw4]

I was one of those people too. I was sure that if my husband ever did XYZ, I would be out of there so fast it would make his head spin. Well, I don't even think I ruffled his hair. Kids make all the difference, don't cha think?

[heatherg]

Yes Mel, kids certainly do make all the difference, no question. If not for my kids, H would still be drinking and doing whatever it is he feels he was born to do, and I would be gone. I really feel that way. Having kids has made H change in a lot of positive ways and cemented me in my place at the same time.

NY, I checked out the link you suggested. The part that most applied to my situation is:

Throw in the Towel:

If you are only staying because you are afraid to leave.
If you feel like a prisoner in your own home.
If partner blames you for provoking their anger.
If you feel like you are losing your sense of identity.

Pick Up the Pieces

If the abuse has been linked to drug or alcohol, and your partner is in recovery.
If the fights are interactive ones where you participate equally in the escalation, and you are involved in couples therapy to learn conflict resolution.
If partner admits responsibility for the abuse and is committed to long term therapy and/or medication.

Can't quite characterize myself or my R with any of these statements either way. The "throw in the towel" moments happen more often than I would like, but I can't say that they characterize the way I feel as a whole. I liked the last statement on the page Remember, love is not just a feeling -- love is also a verb. .

With my inlaws....MIL lives on the beach, so we'll call her and ask if we can bring the kids over to hang out on the beach (I know, I know, key is calling first here, but in all honesty what is she going to say 'no'? So calling is just a sidenote, lol). We take over each others' houses and it's not a problem really. I don't know why I expressed irritation with it, I guess it had to do with it all transpiring in my absence, to come home to a full driveway and people cooking in my kitchen was slightly irritating but somehow if I would have been there the entire time, I probably wouldn't have thought twice. They cleared the table and brought their dishes to the sink, which is acceptable to me. H and I could handle the rest, as we don't normally do dishes when we visit them either, just general cleanup.

H took D2 to the grocery store last night and left S4 with me (good, right?) and he came home and told D2 to show Mommy what she picked out for me. She got me a bottle of reisling, lol. She must have liked the blue bottle. H said "I took her over to the reislings and told her to pick the one she liked, it doesn't even have a cork, just a screw cap (he's laughing), but she liked it so, here you go". Sweet, huh? Told ya, he always likes to keep my wine rack full

[heatherg]

My H calls me this morning to tell me that he's getting his oil changed at lunch time (remember, we're taking his truck to MI). I say ok and we exchange a few other things and hang up. I call him around lunch time and tell him I called to keep him company for a couple minutes while he's getting his oil changed. While we're talking, I can hear the technician in the background telling him something and H says "THAT'S weird, ok man, thanks". He says to me "the guy handed me my keys and tells me my engine light is on", and I proceed to say how stupid that is that he expects you to drive off with that nice piece of info without suggesting they take a look to see WHY the light might be on....anyway, H gets defensive for some reason. I say "well you're going to have to have that checked out, we can't drive all the way to MI with your engine light on". He says "yes we can, don't start". I say "I'm suggesting you get your truck looked at and you tell me 'don't start'?" He says "yes". I said "yeah, well ok, those lights don't mean anything anyway right? It's your truck. I'm at the grocery store so I need to get going."
At this point, I'm sorry, but I'm thinking 'what an absolute retard'. Who PLANS to drive 2,000 miles KNOWING their engine light is on??!!

So he calls me later and says "You'll be happy to know I got my truck fixed. In a very low muffled voice he says "I think you wanted there to be something wrong with it, but anyway" and he tries to go right by that statement and tell me about how he got it fixed. I interrupted with a really stern voice and said "You think I *wanted* your truck to be broken?" He says "I get that feeling, yeah". I said "And if I wanted your truck to be broken, I wouldn't be telling you to go have it looked at, *would* I?" He says "yes, you would". I said something else after that but I can't remember what. He then proceeds to finish telling me about how it got fixed.

Anyway, despite the fact that he was a jerk, I got the feeling that he was slightly intimidated by me. He got his "jab" in, but said it really cowardly and then tried to keep talking, changing the subject. He got quiet when I challenged him and wouldn't say much. The whole thing just made me think he's a huge wimp. And stupid to boot.

[NYsurvivor]

May I render to you what I think a healthier rendition of that conversation would be?

So he calls me later and says "You'll be happy to know I got my truck fixed. In a very low muffled voice he says "I think you wanted there to be something wrong with it, but anyway" and he tries to go right by that statement and tell me about how he got it fixed.

When he was finished speaking, I said, "You think I *wanted* your truck to be broken?" He says "I get that feeling, yeah". I said "I find that very disturbing, rather insulting too. Actually, I was floored when you told me you were willing to drive us 2000 miles with something potentially wrong with the engine. I'm happy you decided to get the engine repaired, yet I can't believe I'm hearing you insinuate something about me from all that."

Just then, in what some may say was an act of divine irony, a piece of an airplane engine fell out of the sky and landed on Larry's head, pulverizing him instantly into oblivion.

I said "And if I wanted your truck to be broken, I wouldn't be telling you to go have it looked at, *would* I?" He says "yes, you would".

Heather, if you haven't got this by now, there isn't anything you can say that he won't counter. Words are cheap, and he can make up anything he wants to respond with... and so he does. Can't ask him questions in response. You can only state your feelings, opinions and boundaries.

We're going to be here next year still going through these same convolutions I fear.