I can understand what you're saying. I myself was a little hesitant to read it because it was from a religious perspective. I’m not religious at all and normally don’t like to read that sort of thing. But as for that review, that wasn’t at all what I got out of it (and the sex chapter is only a small part of the book). To me it explained that for men this was the one way women could truly let their men show their love for them and to give it back to them in a way they understood. I had never thought about it from that perspective before. I still think you should get it from the library and read it yourself to see. After reading it you may think it sounds nothing like you. (I do know that I showed the book to my XH and we actually had some really profound discussions because of some of the things in the book.) Either way, maybe once you get past this hurdle (and my fingers are crossed that you will) it might be something to think about again.
Keep up the good work, Hairy. Steady as she goes seems to be working for you. Besides that you got Corri out of retirement, so take extra credit for working hard on things.
You did miss a fun way to title, which you can do when it locks up is, "Never Give Up, Never Surrender". From a great SF comedy.
Scott
"Satisfaction is not guaranteed." Rule #19 Ferengi "Rules of Acquistition"
(geeze, count on the Star Trek geek to quote from Galaxy Quest)
Okay, just got back from the MC session. The best part of it all:
MC: (leaning forward and looking directly at W) Know this. That if you spend a half hour less with your daughter a couple times a week, or if you only work on the bills and budget three days a week instead of every day, it will have little long-term effect on your daughter or on your budget. But neglect spending a half hour a day focusing on each others' needs? Your marriage will be doomed.
The MC saved this message for the last minute of the session, and I think it made an impression on W.
In the parking lot, however, she said, "you know, she wasn't just talking to me. You need to work on my needs, too."
H: I know. Marriage is definitely a give and take relationship. I know that you need me to talk to you about life and spirituality and values. In that vein, let's get together and talk tonight.
W: Well, the kids (my older kids) will be there.
H: That's okay. We need to make time for this. I'll spend some time with them, and then we'll spend some time together.
Quote: MC: (leaning forward and looking directly at W) Know this. That if you spend a half hour less with your daughter a couple times a week, or if you only work on the bills and budget three days a week instead of every day, it will have little long-term effect on your daughter or on your budget. But neglect spending a half hour a day focusing on each others' needs? Your marriage will be doomed.
Standing ovation for the MC! You'd think that kind of thing would be obvious, wouldn't you? Maybe, just maybe, hearing it from a third party will have some effect on your wife.
Quote: Does your wife like/respect your MC? Do you?
I respect the MC. My W wavers...it depends on if the MC is telling her something she likes or not. (Well now, that's not fair of me to say that...I would say that she respect the MC most of the time.)
I too am glad she decided to go to MC today and hope to hear that it has been a helpful session.
Your post about how she feels overwhelmed with demands and just needs to veg out reminded me of how I often felt as a working mom when my 2 kids were young. Though that wasn't the only cause, our SL began to suffer then and didn't recover for a long time. Unfortunately, I was able to rationalize a lot of it in my mind - I think I convinced myself that a regular SL was almost a dispensable part of our R (how wrong I was!), that we just needed to communicate well and be caring towards each other (good roommates and co-parents), and anyway that my H was somewhat to blame because he didn't do enough housework/cooking (though he did do a lot of childcare). So I guess I sometimes withheld sex out of resentment, to get back at him for not washing dishes or running a vacuum (how dumb I was!). I really didn't get how I was hurting our R. And somehow I saw romantic love as separate from physical love (how wrong I was!). My H would get angry from time to time, but his anger only served to give me further reasons to avoid him. Furthermore, since I am slow to anger, I saw his anger as his failing and saw myself as "above all that" (how self-righteous I was!).
At one point we went to MC some years ago with our declining SL as a one of the precipitating events. But H's anger was also an issue we talked about, and one which I preferred to think was the cause and not the result of our poor SL. Furthermore, I was way too uncomfortable with talking about S to even make productive use of our MC sessions. Mostly I was unable to say anything explicit at all, unable to discuss my own feelings, unable to talk collaboratively about what would improve our SL.
SSM and this BB have both been very helpful to me in understanding his quite legitimate needs and his feelings of hurt and desperation.
Both have also been very helpful in giving me alternative views of how I can feel and act in our R. Both have given me examples of words to use, words that other real people find helpful. Both have also helped me make much better use of MC sessions we are now going to.
But I guess the real turning point for me was when I feared my H was in an EA with another woman, a good friend of ours. This was what brought me to this BB in desperation 3 months ago. I now believe he wasn't, but also think it could have gone that way if I didn't take action. That forced me to sit up and take seriously his statements that he "couldn't go on this way; perhaps he should leave or perhaps he should take a mistress". Before then I told myself "there he goes again; he always exaggerates, whereas I am such a good person that I am very careful about what I say; I'll just ride it out until he calms down". (again, how self-righteous I was!)
I don't recall if you have said whether she read SSM and whether you think it would help?
I know that SSM says that that one shouldn't generalize - once weekly may be a SSM for some HD spouses while once every 6 months may be just fine for some LD couples. Your wife seems to fit into the latter group and doubtless wishes that you would too. Although I think SSM may urge not going by statistics, I wonder if a reality check would help at some point? Once every 6 months is probably way below the average frequency.
We had a SSM when the frequency fell to once every 2-4 weeks. That was not good but I was able to convince myself that it wasn't so far from average and wasn't such a big deal (how wrong I was!). Now that we have been able to talk more productively, my H has set once weekly as his bottom line with 2 or 3 times preferred.
Your W seems to view you as particularly needy. I guess what I am saying is two-fold: 1) your needs are well within the range of normal and 2) they are an important consideration in any case.
Obviously, any of this convo would have to be engaged in in a spirit of trust and support and not in the spirit of "you are abnormal".
Furthermore, it could be particularly helpful if she could ultimately see some benefit for herself in a better SL - ideally more pleasure for herself and also really a wonderful way to relax and de-stress (that was an eye opener for me - in the past our SL was just one more source of stress, but we are turning that around), not to mention the benefit of having a happier spouse and better adjusted children. (I remember once a happily married female friend of ours responding to my H, when he complained of a period of insomnia, "doesn't ML help?" I think I was there at the time; anyway I remember that was foreign concept to me.)
But at the moment it sounds as though she is really handicapped, perhaps by long-ago events and long-ago people, so too much truth might be hard for her to take. I wish I could tell you what would work to turn that around. I hope your MC is good and can help.
The dynamics of MCing can be tricky - if one spouse feels that the other spouse and MC are "ganging up" on her/him then that can be a setback in terms of trust. Perhaps individual counseling sessions can help? But if she is so uncomfortable with her sexuality and discussing it and as deft as a good lawyer at changing the subject to your faults etc, then she might not make much headway.
Well, I have run on longer than I should have. I offer these comments as from my LD experience and hope they may give some insight. I hope this doesn't constitute a hi-jacking of your thread.
Best wishes! Doglover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
DL: I really appreciate your insight and welcome your contribution. Some answers to your questions. Yes, I have shared SSM with her. She ended up using passages from it that supported her viewpoint against me, and minimizing the "just do it" approach. So, that was a bust.
Also, I went through a period during which I was trying to prove to her what a "normal" sex life was like. Big mistake. She got very defensive. Claimed I was telling her she was abnormal. Currently, she is in about the same place I was back then; trying to prove her "normality" and show that I have abnormal expectations.
I, too, wish she could see the potential benefits that may come to her if she tried and ended up enjoying it. Yes, her hubby would be happier, more responsive, more loving; but beyond that, she may find out that she has been really out of touch with her body and with her sexuality and with her womanhood, and that ML can help foster those discoveries.
Yeah, right, she'd say. Just another rationalization to try to get me into bed.
But I shall continue my quest.
BTW, I'm a doglover, too. Three Boxers. W and I used to run a boxer rescue organization.
I hadn't read your post which came while I was sending mine. Bravo! This sounds like a real beginning. I hope you can build on this. Your responses sound great - calm and reassuring but also clear about your own needs.
Of course there's always the possibility of a "my needs are being met less than your needs" response from her. I think you just need to let her know how important this is to you and to the health of your M. And also, of course, you need to try to understand and, within reason, meet her needs too.
Great going, Doglover
Quote:
Okay, just got back from the MC session. The best part of it all:
MC: (leaning forward and looking directly at W) Know this. That if you spend a half hour less with your daughter a couple times a week, or if you only work on the bills and budget three days a week instead of every day, it will have little long-term effect on your daughter or on your budget. But neglect spending a half hour a day focusing on each others' needs? Your marriage will be doomed.
The MC saved this message for the last minute of the session, and I think it made an impression on W.
In the parking lot, however, she said, "you know, she wasn't just talking to me. You need to work on my needs, too."
H: I know. Marriage is definitely a give and take relationship. I know that you need me to talk to you about life and spirituality and values. In that vein, let's get together and talk tonight.
W: Well, the kids (my older kids) will be there.
H: That's okay. We need to make time for this. I'll spend some time with them, and then we'll spend some time together.
W: Okay.
We'll see.
Hairdog
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
HD, Ooh good ending to the session. I'm sure the counselor was in GENERAL speaking to you both, but she addressed her comment specifically to your wife. That counts for a lot, you know?
I liked doglover's post a lot. So much of that has come out of my own H's mouth, almost all of it, I'd say. I think he'd add one more thing: the bettering of our sex life has benefitted him in the following way--he now feels as if he is a competent husband. He doesn't have that inadequate feeling hanging over his head. He must be feeling pretty good about his husbandly abilities since he thinks we're ready to teach marriage classes! LOL
Anyway, a year or 2 ago he never would have said anything of the sort. We both felt 'broken' and totally dysfunctional. Though we still have our creaky moments, for the most part things run smoothly on the track.
Keep on keeping on, my friend.
Oh and I loved the Churchill reference! I was a history major back in the day.
Well you do have a challenging sitch - your W is smart, skilled as a lawyer, and determined not to appear weak to herself or to anyone else. You can't make her over; can't turn her into an HDW; but I hope you can slowly impress on her the benefits to your R of a more regular SL. Gosh, it's not such a novel concept. On another thread (sorry I forget which) someone suggested that an HDH find an older woman to advise his LDW that a good SL is crucial to a good marriage. Clearly, that's likely to be difficult, because most LDW's are not used to or comfortable talking about sex with their friends. Perhaps the MC can fill that role. The fact that she's a woman may help your W's trust level.
Regarding her feelings about her own sexuality, I pass on the following FWIW: Our MC recommended the following book: "Woman Who Love Sex" by Gina Ogden who is a therapist in Cambridge MA. Unfortunately I'm only halfway through it, having been interrupted by Schnarch's PM arriving in the mail, but I liked what I read so far. The title is more sensational than the book, which one reviewer on Amazon describes as: "a feminist perspective on sexual pleasure for women" and another as: "a readable and woman-affirming book". It basically seems to deal with a whole spectrum of women, not just HD women. I don't know if it would appeal to your W, but you might look at it. I found it encouraging and hopeful.
Re dogs: MrDL and I have been married almost 33 years and until we had to put down our 4th dog this winter, we had never been without a dog for more than a few weeks - each was adopted from a shelter, several at age 4 or so, so their life with us was limited by the fact that they were already adult when they joined our family. Dogs were always a given part of family life, especially to our kids, but now it has been 6 months without a dog. Several family events have preoccupied us, and I must admit that although life may be less joyful without the unconditional love of a waggy-tailed dog greeting us at the door, on the other hand there sure is a lot less vacuuming to do. So we'll see if we get another.
Hang in there, Doglover
Quote: Yes, I have shared SSM with her. She ended up using passages from it that supported her viewpoint against me, and minimizing the "just do it" approach. So, that was a bust.
Also, I went through a period during which I was trying to prove to her what a "normal" sex life was like. Big mistake. She got very defensive. Claimed I was telling her she was abnormal. Currently, she is in about the same place I was back then; trying to prove her "normality" and show that I have abnormal expectations.
I, too, wish she could see the potential benefits that may come to her if she tried and ended up enjoying it. Yes, her hubby would be happier, more responsive, more loving; but beyond that, she may find out that she has been really out of touch with her body and with her sexuality and with her womanhood, and that ML can help foster those discoveries.
Yeah, right, she'd say. Just another rationalization to try to get me into bed.
But I shall continue my quest.
BTW, I'm a doglover, too. Three Boxers. W and I used to run a boxer rescue organization.
Hairdog
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
