Shouldn't I be happy how things are going?

[calder]

HI JL,
I know how hard this is believe me.The house thing depends on how important it is to you to keep what is the family home.If you sell you need a guarantee from what it sounds like, that H will be with you in buying a joint new home.If he is dodging this.. undecided or unwilling to talk on it ,it sounds chancey to me.
There is no way you can force him to come in with you on your choice of home I fear.
I know I am hanging on in here in the family home though it is far too big. But I do feel safe here.My H is determined for his own unknown reasons that I stay here as long as I want.. for good if I want.
I am doing this and in part wonder if he has still a subconscious wish for me to be here in case he returns.
I know one or two posters have agreed to sale of home and regretted it as it seemed to distance them more.
Others found it helped them move on.
I think you have a good chance of H coming back eventually.. He may be undecided but he is circling and landing at times.. There is no OW to distract and excite him.A matter of time and your patience holding out.. that is the hardest bit.
You cannot think clearly if you have no control over things.
You need to work out what is your best and safe option.
If you sell home you could be homeless eventually ,unless you both agree clearly on what will happen and where you both will live,and can work well together on this.

.I would myself not sell till the legal position re finance is settled.You could buy another place and find as you say you cannot afford it,what happens then if he does not co-operate,or has met someone else?
Sorry to be black but your home is your security.. your base, so don't lose out on it,risk loss and ending in a poorer situation.

Detaching comes from having lots to help you distract yourself, I find.. so anything you can do.. especially friends, activities..helps.
I joined a walking group which has been great!
I try to keep active when low.. walking does raise my mood.

I send back bad feelings I am suffering to WAH.. visualising them as funny objects.. like bags of tears.. or anvils.. and send them in my mind crashing back to WAH! It does get rid of the worst.The more control the better I find.

Take care ,
Hugs calder xx

[gd1]

Arrrgggg...I just lost a long post to you girlfriend. I'm gonna try and find it somewhere...but until I do here's a big ((((((((((((((((((((((JL))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Ding dong saturn is DEAD, the wicked witch the mean old bitch...ding dong the saturn witch is dead!!!!!
(at least for we Cancers)

gd

[JustLearning]

There is no OW to distract and excite him.

Or so I thought. It's amazing how one innocent statement from S8 can change my entire world. My son and I were in the car talking about the responibilities of owning pets. S8 made a comment about his Dad's cat liking him now, when the cat didn't last time. I asked how he knew that since he's not been to his dad's since last year.

S8 then proceeded to say that "Dad, me and OW went to that party then went to dad's apt". The only thing I asked was if she had ridden with them in the car, he said yes. This was the party H had told me they had gone to last weekend while I was away with my girlfriend. This is the same OW that I had suspicions about way back near the beginning and H kept telling me they were "just friends". yeah right.

So it's quite apparent that H thinks he can expose my son to his OW and believe that I won't find out. How much more stupid can this guy get? When S8 said this I've been feeling sick to my stomach ever since. And of course am figuring this away weekend he took her somewhere for the weekend and just covered it with a work story. Of course I don't know this for fact, but does it really matter where he is or who he's with? My heart is gutted and don't know what my next step should be.

We are supposed to be talking to the realtor on Monday about the offer that's been made on the house. Do I just let him speak and see what he has to say? Then decide? So many things are running in my head, it's like watching a movie in fast forward.

All I want to do is stay in bed with the covers pulled over my head. I didn't think this could possibly hurt any more than it has over the last 3 years, and yet here it is, more pain.

How is it that I can love a man who can hurt me so deeply? And why me? What have I done to deserve all this?

I'm drowning again in this god-awful misery and not sure how to stop it.

[gd1]

Hi JL,
I understand how the pain comes in waves. Betrayal is an ugly thing.
The long post that I had written and tried to post but then it just disappeared !!!!! was more about your feeling some days that you could forgive him and learn to trust again, and some days where you felt your love for him was dead. I wanted to tell you that love can come back, and quickly...it happened to me (and more imptly it happened to then H) back in l995. What it takes, at least for me, is learning to trust again. You can do that, but only if H wants to give up his lies and come clean and then work hard on restoring the trust he broke. It seems that there are way too many people who decide that the work isn't worth it. That running away and starting over fresh...where nobody knows your name (or what you did)is easier.

You said you read DR. I was wondering if you read DB and also Five Love Languages? Although it took me 2 years after the END of marriage to figure out what was going on during the 24 years OF my marriage..knowledge at any time is a pretty powerful thing.

It could be that your H really did go into the MLC fog, did some pretty egregious things, but really wants to come back to the marriage.
It could be the opposite..he is just trying to get out of the marriage without being labeled 'the jerk' or going financially bankrupt.
And the sad thing is ...it is most often really hard to tell which one!
So, without knowing a lot about the history of your m, giving advice is not a good idea. But if you read DB and then decide that you really don't want a divorce IF you can get the dysfuntion out of your marriage, if you read DB and see that there is hope, then the best course is to find out as much as you can about 1.family of origin issues that might be messing with your and H's R. 2. figure out both of your love languages and in that talk your H wants to have...see if he can figure out his and yours and vv and then see if you can't both agree to try to love your lover using their love language. I think DB and filling those love tanks with premium octane gives you HOPE, that things can be better. Then you can apply all that knowledge that you gained about why you and he act and react the way you do. YOu need to figure out your coping skills..like does he survive by stuffing all his troubles and do you need to talk about and resolve issues or go crazy. Is he passive aggressive or are you? You each probably have different ways of coping with stress, conflict, anger etc...and you need to figure out why you do the things you do. (usually it is what you did in childhood...and tho it worked then, it doesn't often translate well into adulthood.

So then it comes down to change...both of you being willing to. Changing how you react to each other and changing the way you hold in resentments and changing the tone of your voice and the rate of speech...heck, there are lots of things to try! But only if both of you decided to give it a try, with all your hearts and minds.

Well, I can go on can't I? JL, it feels like you and your H can make it work...don't know why I think that, but I just feel that neither of you is the hard core running away kind. For the sake of your kiddies, I think you both need to commit to trying to get the trust back. The loving feelings will follow..I can almost guarantee that part.

BUt if not...if you've been so hurt that you just can't forgive, then please protect yourself financially.

Other books I'd recommend are EMotional Unavailability and Emotional Alchemy...good for trying to figure out where you might be coming from as well as where he is coming from.

The library probably has these books, if not the used books at Amazon.com is a good source.

Thanks for posting on my thread over in surviving. I am already feeling the lightening of the load with Saturn getting the frig out of dodge! I wrote 3 motions and delivered them yesterday, and have a letter to someone that might help re appeal to do and then another letter that I 've been meaning to write for over a year....but today is rest and clean the house day and get more water on the lawn day! Thanks for your lovely affirmation of my ability to get through the last 3 years...Yep, I even surprised myself on that one...I've always thought I was strong and tenacious, but boy there were days when it seemed hard even to breathe.
I love to read and it was funny that my kid (who hadn't yet been bit by the reading bug) is who turned me onto Carl Hiassin...He is sooooofunny and wry. My first was Stormy Weather...and with all the hurricanes in Florida the last two years, it seemed quite appropriate. I have to get back to the library to get some more of his stuff...We both must share a similar sense of humor!

Will check back on ya sweetie, although I don't peruse the boards as much as I once did.

Best of luck, whatever you choose!
gd

[DownNotOut]

JL, I am sorry about you finding out about the OW as you have. I think that deep down, you have had the gut instinct there about her from early on---but like me and my sitch, you didn't want to believe he would do that, so you denied it.

I now that you have read my threads, and I know that our stories are a little similar. Our H's have a foot in two different worlds. My H never told me about the other woman, even tho' he lived with her for almost 3 months before I found out and confronted him on it. Yes it hurts, but that is something that you have to work your way through.

I hate to say it, but sometimes these R's with OP just have to run their course. Sometimes they actually discover that the other woman is not everything that they thought. But don't give him reason to go running to her.

You are going to have to do a complete 180. You have to stop trying to push him into a decision about the two of you. Maybe you need to let him know that you know about his 'weekend' with the OW, and don't appreciate him taking your son. Sometimes the excitement of a secret R loses that excitement when it's out in the open. Then go dark with him. You have to stop pressuring him to make a decision---trust me, it just pushes them further away. No R talks from you. Do not contact him unless it's about kids, and be friendly if he contacts you.

You cannot control him or what he does JL. If he is meant to be with you, it will happen. But, it's not something that you can force. Look at my R---my H is still fence sitting---still has his feet in both worlds. Our decision is how long we put up with it.

As far as selling the house---stay there if you want to be there. You shouldn't make big decisions like that when your life is in such turmoil. I will tell you that staying in the family home is hard, especially if you actually do divorce. There are so many memories to live with---but, I also felt that my H and his OW took enough from me--why should I and my kids lose everything because he didn't want to be here anymore?

((((((((JL)))))))))))

Take this time to work on you. I know that you are going to school, which is really good. Maybe a part time job so that you don't feel so dependent on him. This will also help when you start looking for something full time. It really helped me when I started working again. Besides making my own money--I also met new people and made new friendships. Took my mind off of my screwed up life once in a while. It's scarry, but it will be ok. Don't let fear hold you back and don't make excuses for not moving forward with your own life. Take control.

Do things for yourself and your kids and try to remove what he is doing from your mind. You cannot fix this thing until he is ready to try---and as long as he is carrying on with her, he is not trying.

I'm sorry if any of this sounds harsh, but you know that I am right there with you.

Take care, DNO

[haphazard]

Hi JL,

I really feel for you. Although I already knew about OW from H's itemised phone bill, I didn't know he was taking her along when he had his Sundays with the kids until of course S (then 4) spilled the beans. The white heat of that anger is something I will never ever forget. It's not just that they are betraying YOU it is that they think it is OK to hang out with OW and kids. OW is the evil bitch who is helping break up the happy home but they don't see it that way. Can I say cake-eater?

I am a little further along than you, my sitch is 2 years old. Bomb dropped April 03, H came back 2 months later, short lived honeymoon period and then back in the mire. Just grey, just not getting along great, him feeling like oh well I guess this is it then I have recommitted and I'm stuck here.

There have been brighter moments along the way and currently we are experiencing one of them. I just read Narcissism by Alexander Lowen. I know you have been given a lot of book suggestions but this is kind of a different way of looking at it. I didn't read this book to try and change my R but it has. My mother died last year and my brother has basically changed into a psycho since it happened and that's partly why I decided to read it. It talks about childhood stuff but it also gives us ways of releasing the anger and sadness and tension that have been suppressed for so long that we didn't even know they were there. It might even be that your mom let you cry it out when you were a baby to get you to sleep the night. Once you release those things YOU will change. Once you change you will change around him without even trying.

So then it comes down to change...both of you being willing to. Changing how you react to each other and changing the way you hold in resentments and changing the tone of your voice and the rate of speech...heck, there are lots of things to try! But only if both of you decided to give it a try, with all your hearts and minds.

I would suggest Lowen's book to help you with this or another one of his - Bioenergetics.

Take care

Fran

[JustLearning]

Hi gd1, thank you so much for your wonderful post! I'm sorry it's taken me so long to respond. I have been in such a funk the last few weeks that I just haven't had the energy to post.

You said you read DR. I was wondering if you read DB and also Five Love Languages?

yes, I have read 5LL but not DB. I have read so many other books they swim in my head! I will look up the other books you suggested tho'. Thanks!

It could be that your H really did go into the MLC fog, did some pretty egregious things, but really wants to come back to the marriage.
It could be the opposite..he is just trying to get out of the marriage without being labeled 'the jerk' or going financially bankrupt.
And the sad thing is ...it is most often really hard to tell which one!

There are a lot of times when I think that both are true if that makes any sense. He seems so confused if we talk about our R, which is not often.

I have tried to learn about H's family of origin, but it is difficult because they are all dead now. And that is what is part of this problem. His brother (who was 13 yrs older) died when he was 21, H was only 8; then his dad died when H was 19; his sister died at age 44, in 1991 of a brain tumor (they were 11 yrs apart, but very very close); then his mom died in 1996. He's the only one left. He has some aunts and uncles and a few cousins, but most all live in another country or another state. I truly believe that he is dealing with his own MLC because of this. I also believe it started a long time ago, then got interrupted and now has come back.

Trying to learn more about his family of origin is hard. And I don't know how they interacted with one another. So it's like dealing with this in the dark. And that's how I feel a lot, that I'm wandering around in the dark not knowing what I'm going to find.

So then it comes down to change...both of you being willing to. Changing how you react to each other and changing the way you hold in resentments and changing the tone of your voice and the rate of speech...heck, there are lots of things to try! But only if both of you decided to give it a try, with all your hearts and minds.

This is what I would love to have, H to truly want to try. To make a commitment to me only and try to make this M into something wonderful. But he only seems to skim the edges. I look at him as keeping all of us at an arm's length away. Not letting anyone get too close. Not sure if he'll ever let his guard down around his heart. And it's not something I can do for him.

I still do not want a divorce and still have the idea that he needs to do the work if he wants one. Just don't know what goes on in his head.

Thanks again, gd, it does help to have another, objective opinion.

JL

[JustLearning]

Thanks DNO for your words. I know that we are following a similar path in how our H's are acting. And no, you have not been harsh. They make a lot of sense.

I have taken the house off the market. I just can't deal with this whole thing at the moment. I don't like it, but I don't feel comfortable with selling it either. So, I guess the best action at the moment is no action at all.

I have stopped pushing him into any kind of answers. I did confront him about the OW, and he is still making it sound like they are "just friends". Yeah right. I told him that whatever R he has with her will conflict with any R we have. He doesn't believe that. He thinks they are 2 separate things that don't overlap. Sorry, ain't buying it and told him so. The entire time we had this talk he sat almost on top of me, he was sitting so close. This is a very rare thing. We usually sit opposite each other on the couches. He kept hugging me, kissing me. Kept laying his head on my shoulder. But couldn't seem to be honest with me about anything. He didn't say much at all, again.

He did end up in tears a couple of times when I had to go up to comfort S8 who heard us get loud. We weren't fighting but our voices were raised at one point and S8 woke up. I went up to comfort him, S8 tells me he just wants me, him and dad to do things together again. Then he says that he wants dad to come back and stay with us for good. H had walked into the room just as he was saying that. S8 was in tears, crying and so was I. I couldn't help it. I walked out and H talked to him for a few minutes. I was in the bathroom wiping my tears when H came out and came up to me hugging me, he was in tears too. Then another time later he was in tears. I couldn't feel too sorry for him though, he's the one who left.

I did tell him that if he had any inclination to make our M work, that OW would need to be completely out of his life.

And he's gone back to burying himself in his work, not seeing him much again, but pretending like everything is just fine.

Just before he left that night, he kept saying "what do we do now?". I told him that I had made a plan but he didn't seem to like it, so didn't know how to answer his question. The other times he would say it, I wouldn't even answer. I figure it's his job to decide what he wants to do.

I've had a tough time the last few weeks and now I just can't wait to go back to school!

Now on top of everything, my uncle died last week Monday. We were at the hospital all day watching him fade away after having been ill for the last several months. Basically his organs just started shutting down because of other complications with infections, diabetes, etc. He was a mess.

It was so very sad. We will miss him. But it just showed me more how much my family is important to me. It also showed me that I don't like being alone. I had no one to lean on, to support me. I was too busy supporting my Mom (this was her only brother) and trying to comfort my 3 cousins. For once in a very long time we came together as a family and learned that we do love one another even when we don't see each other. His funeral was yesterday and by the time I got home I was emotionally, physically and mentally exhausted. All of this has taken its toll on me and my emotions. Just not sure how much more I can handle.

I know in my heart and in my head that no matter what happens that I will survive. It's the road getting from here to there that scares the beejeebes out of me.

[JustLearning]

Thanks Haphazard for your response. It does ease the pain some to know that I'm not the only one experiencing this. It also infuriates me that it is so prevelant. What has this world come to?

My sitch is actually almost 3 years old. I knew fairly early on that there was the possibility of an OW. Of course H denied it was anything other than "friends". I chose to ignore it. My H is one to not talk about anything related to emotions, so he never brought her up. I have only learned things about her through a former work associate of H's and from our S8.

Including my son into his twisted logic ticks me off no end. S8 may not understand exactly whats going on, but H is teaching him that it's ok to see other women, even as "friends", while you are still married. I am not ok with that. And when I confronted him about the latest, I told him that exact thing. He doesn't seem to see it that way.

Even after all this time, I still love him and want to make this M work. There are many days I wonder why, but I'm still here, still standing. But it is taking its toll on me and my emotions.

I'm not sure about my H being a N, but I will look into those books.

Thanks again for your input, it's always welcome. Right now i'm trying to put my self back together, and have a bit of fun with my kids before they have to go back to school. And I've been so down, that I'm having to force myself to make these plans. But I know in the end, it WILL be fun and it will be good for both me and my 2 boys.

JL

[JustLearning]

Things haven't changed much since my last post. My H is still buried in his work, and I'm counting the days until I go back to school. S8 has started school, which helps both him and I. He was getting a bit bored, and I was starting to pull my hair out.

H was here tonight because of a thing we had at S8's school. He says he wants to come over tomorrow afternoon to talk. About what he didn't say. We got into a discussion tonight that shows us how far apart we are on many topics relating to my job as a mom.

The problems he says was he felt I didn't do enough around the house, even though I didn't have a "regular" job. And he still feels that way. Since I don't have a "regular" job that my job is to do housework every day like a regular job. And apparently the job that I do isn't enough. Not that he said that in those words. That is what I heard.

It comes down to the fact that my H moved out because of my supposed lack of ambition to do housework all day, every day. Now to explain about the state of my house at the moment: a couple of pair of shoes are lying on the floor in the living room, under an end table, also 2 PS2 games on the LR floor in front of the tv. A magazine and a stuffed animal on the couch. A few paid bills and school papers are spread on the computer desk. The kitchen table has a few school supplies needing to find a home, the same with the papers on the counter in the kitchen. That is basically the mess in my house. The bathrooms are in decent shape, the sinks & toilets are clean. And this man has nerve to take exception to my domestic skills?

Now in his defense, I have to say he was not knocking the way the house looks NOW, but in a general sense he feels I do not work enough around here. Especially since he works so hard at his own job. Am I suppose to work that hard here? If that were the case, we'd be living in a museum!

I sit here in tears because to me the whole thing is absurd. He leaves me because of my domestic skills? One thing he said was that back when S11 was born that we talked about me staying home for the first year. Well, I don't remember that conversation at all. Who knows, maybe we did start out talking about me going back to work after the first year.

I think it comes down to resentment on both sides. Me resenting him because he was doing so well in his career and I was just a "Mom" and feeling like I was demoted from partner to employee; and his resentment because I was not contributing equally to the partnership.

All of this starting because I made a comment about wanting to get quotes from a few companies for mowing my lawn. Mind you, he's not mowed our lawn in 3+ years, and he's been gone almost 3.

I feel as though tomorrow's talk is going to turn out to be a bomb of some kind. This is not something he typically does, especially during a work day. I want to suggest to him that we find a MC, but not sure that would help, or he'd even agree. I am wondering if this talk is going to be about him taking S8 on a regular basis, something he's never done up to this point. It scares me in a way because I see it as another step away from me. But I know S8 would be so excited and it would be good for him. He needs his dad. But it still concerns me.

I asked him if he had read the article I gave him last week. It was an article about emotional infidelity. He said he had but that he didn't see himself in it. I almost laughed in his face. Talk about denial. This man's head is so far up his a$$, he can't see sunlight.

So why am I still here? Why do I continue to allow myself to be hurt by him and his shallow, selfish tendencies? The only answer I can come up with is that I'm more afraid of the unknown of being completely on my own with 2 children, then what it is now with H paying the bills.

When will I see the light at the end of the tunnel (to heck with his light)? When will my life ever go back to some semblance of normal? Will I ever have someone to love me again?