I’ve decided that I need a new thread to go with my new name. Things have really been going pretty well with W and our SL, so I’m no longer WB, but ZB. Zufriedengestellter, like Bube, is German. Roughly translated, it means contented. Or maybe satisfied. As such, it may be a bit inaccurate, but overall I’m feeling much happier with my sitch. I just have a few questions for some of the old-timers here.
First, once some measure of success has been achieved, does it ever get out of the maintenance mode? I’ve seen several people here remarking about their S backsliding and them having to work to maintain the progress they made. I’ve seen SuperDave, Tim47/49, and several others who reported tremendous progress kind of drift away, then pop back in and mention how they’re still struggling with the same issues.
As I told CeMar a couple of weeks ago, there are things I want that I can all but guarantee I’ll never have in this R. But rather than dwelling on those, I try to focus on the positives. I’ve been doing that a lot lately, but it’s sometimes really hard. So the first question was about the W slipping back into old patterns; this one is about me slipping back into old patterns. Recently, I’ve been feeling some of the old anger and resentment creeping back in.
Our SL is still light years ahead of where it was when I found this place. I said that during my years of little or no sex, I wanted it all the time, but I predicted that once we started to ML on a regular basis, that constant craving would lessen. I believe that I predicted that 2-3 times a week would be about what I wanted and that I could be satisfied with once a week. Well, I’ve been at the once a week level for almost a year now and I can say that my prediction was absolutely correct: I seem to be good for 2-3 days after we ML before I start feeling the old feeling. I do, however, recognize the effort W has made and is still making, and I can live with once a week.
The problem now is that I feel my attitude slipping. Most of you know my sitch: we are ML, but it’s still always by her rules. It’s always a weekend morning. It’s always missionary position. Oral is strictly a one-way street – and it’s not my direction. Things have been SOOOOO much better this past year. I’ve been fairly satisfied. So why am I feeling resentful? Why can’t I take the good and accept that I’ll never get a BJ? Why can’t I accept that W loves me, continues to make a tremendous effort to meet my needs, and does it for me? I feel a bit like CeMar: I want the desire.
Is this just one of those inevitable cycles? How do I beat this? Would I be justified in asking W for more – knowing the effort she has already made? Intellectually, I know that W will never have the desire for sex that I do. So why do I keep expecting that of her? Shouldn't I recognize that she's given a lot and I have to give as well?
I don't know, I'm just having a real hard time right now. I want more, but I honestly don't feel justified in asking for more. I've been pretty content for this past year. Why am I losing that? How can I reverse it? Maybe instead of 'content', I should have changed my name to 'should be content'.
I too have been going through the seesaw of satified, happy, wanting more. I've begun seriously searching myself and my religion for answers, but so far haven't really found it. MrsGGB has really stepped up to the plate, and has stretched herself quite a bit. I'm still not convinced that she really initiates for herself rather than to keep me from getting crabby (I'm still working on that too). The gals on the BB have posited that she may not that be motivated because she doesn't let herself O. If only she came with the instruction manual Anyway, I'll be curious to see what answers you get here.
I think the problem is you are expecting too much from yourself, not your wife. Why should you expect yourself to continue endlessly happy with the status quo in your marriage? OTOH you are expecting too little from yourself if you are not willing to keep working at having a marriage that you are happy with. Do you think your expectations are unreasonable?
Let's narrow it down to just one issue; the fact that your W will not perform oral sex. The sex columnist who is syndicated in one of my local papers has stated that oral sex is part of standard sexual practice in our culture and anyone who is not getting any has the right to be disgruntled. Does knowing this make you feel better?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Yeah, an instruction manual would be nice. You know, I do appreciate the effort W is making. It’s a big, big leap from twice a year let’s-get-it-over-with duty sex to once a week where, even though she doesn’t appear to get any physical pleasure from it, she does seem to get some satisfaction from giving me pleasure. At some level, I really feel like I should be happy with that. And a lot of the time, I am happy with that. But I’ve had both, and sex with a woman who wants to please you isn’t even close to having sex with a woman who really wants to do it. KWIM?
JJ,
You bring up some interesting questions. My answers might not make sense in the cold, hard, light of day, but I’ll just give you the gut reaction responses.
Why would I expect myself to continue endlessly happy with the status quo? A couple of reasons. One, as I told GGB, W has made tremendous progress. I honestly feel that I should be able to accept that. With vastly different appetites for anything, there has to be compromise. By definition, compromise means that each side gives until they meet somewhere in the middle. W has increased our frequency by something around 2500% - shouldn’t I be willing to accept a 50-66% decrease in my frequency expectations? Otherwise, I’m asking her to make all the changes while committing to none myself.
Second, I don’t want to present a moving target. How would MW take it if you told him that you want it once a week, then when he started doing it once a week, you told him that it had to be twice a week to satisfy you? What about when you upped that target to once a day? Then twice a day? On this very BB we’ve seen, or at least heard about more than one LDS who complained that their efforts would never be enough to satisfy the HDS. I don’t want to do that.
Do I think my expectations are unreasonable? No, I really don’t. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect to have sex with your spouse a couple of times a week. No, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect that if your S expects you to go down on them, then they should be willing to return the favor. But different people have different perceptions of what’s reasonable. W may very well think that expecting sex more than once a week is completely unreasonable. She very obviously believes that expecting her to put my d!ck in her mouth is unreasonable. So I suppose this one comes down to which of us is defining reasonable doesn't it? Why should my definition trump hers?
And finally, even if you could offer unequivocal proof that oral sex is a standard sexual practice in every single M in the country (except mine), I still wouldn’t feel any differently about it. It’s really just a variation of the old, “why would you want to f*ck someone who doesn’t want to f*ck you” question. Why would I want W to do something that she so obviously finds abhorrent? Yes, I would enjoy it – but at what cost?
I guess what I was getting at is you seem to be asking the question "Is it okay to be dissatisfied?". It seems unlikely that any of us could ever be perfectly happy with our marriages because none of us are perfect and neither are our spouses but it seems reasonable to want to be reasonably happy with our situations.
Let's pretend you were my next door neighbor. Maybe you would envy my H because you know that I give great head because you were a little too close to our bedroom window the last time you watered the lawn. OTOH maybe my H would envy you because when he brought over some mail that had been misdelivered he noticed that your W keeps your house in absolute ship-shape. Two things are true when you consider this scenario. The obvious fact is that people have a tendency towards thinking that the grass is always greener but the second thing that is true is that nobodys marriage is really a closed system in which all behavior is only relative to that of your spouse. There is no way of closing yourself off from the knowledge that most other women in our culture do give their H's head on occasion.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Hey ZB: If it's any consolation (and I know it isn't), the last time my wife attempted oral on my was in 1998. That was before we were married. The last time I tried oral on her was probably two or three years ago. She told me she didn't want it anymore.
Just wanted to let you know that you're not the only one.
It sounds like all the rules are getting to be a bit restrictive.
You know, ZB, (that is infinitely harder to type that WB, btw) I think the only way out of this is to communicate your feelings to her. I know you want to avoid it, so that you don't go back to square one, but that will keep you stuck at status quo forever.
Can you nicely suggest a little variety? Or once a month, you get to pick the position? Something small so that she has a chance to build her confidence and feel secure with what is expected of her.
I would leave the oral issue completely alone. That is 20 miles down the road and you haven't even started the journey yet, kwim? Get her used to sex (real sex with variety and both partners having input into the process) first and then see if her comfort level increases wrt oral, or stays the same. It may never change (:( for you) or it may not. As you yourself said, 2 years ago you never would have been able to picture yourself getting it once a week, like you are now.
I think the feelings you are going through are normal. Just because you had improvements in your marriage does not mean you are an ogre for wanting more. I know you are grateful that you are no longer in the desperate stage, but perhaps now is a time to take things up a notch and think of new goals. I like HP's suggestions...she is so good with the goal making stuff.
In PM Schnarch talks about cycling in and out of growth and comfort phases, and I do see it as part of life's journey to keep working at things rather than becoming stagnant. As JJ has said, you may be stirred up by looking in someone else's window, but then you have to get back to walking down your own road, if you know what I mean.
ZB Let me ask you something. Is it the sensation that goes with a BJ that you want or do you want your wife to do something she does not like just because it pleases you or is it the idea of everyone else does it and why should I be excluded? I guess we can overanalyze anything but figuring out what precisely it is about not getting a BJ that is bothering you may help you figure out how to move past the current roadblock in your life. As posted above, dissatisfaction leading to a grwoth cycle is terrific but I think your point of not setting up a moving target is also valid. Is there a way that for the moment you can focus on something she wants and work towards it as a way of showing your sincere desire to change and grow? DeepBlue
Quote: Is it the sensation that goes with a BJ that you want or do you want your wife to do something she does not like just because it pleases you or is it the idea of everyone else does it and why should I be excluded? I guess we can overanalyze anything but figuring out what precisely it is about not getting a BJ that is bothering you may help you figure out how to move past the current roadblock in your life.
I think these are GREAT questions. For myself, my discontent over the lackanookie is in large part because I know that lots of people are doing it and I want some of the good stuff, too. It's an envy thing (which, BTW, is the curse of the Enneagram Four.) One of the reasons I want sex is because it makes me feel normal and attractive and an okay human being. At this point, not a whole lot has to do with the exchange of love or the pleasurable feelings. I know he loves me, and I can give myself spectacular good feelings.
I'd really like to know what others think about DB's questions.
Anyway, I'll be curious to see what answers you get here. 
for you) or it may not. As you yourself said, 2 years ago you never would have been able to picture yourself getting it once a week, like you are now.
