Quote: I’m a problem solver and few things make me feel better than solving a problem.
We all like to know that we have the ability to find solutions without it turning into an argument or heated debate. My ex was a great problem solver. Here is where the problem lay though. He would come up with solutions to problems and most of the time it meant him compromising on something he wanted. Now, I had no idea he was compromising, I actually thought the problems had been solved to everyone's liking. After 17 years of solving problems this way the lid blew off his pot and all that pent up frustration over compromising came out.
Now I'm wondering, when you say you are a problem solver and can take care of most issues with a discussion are you doing the same thing? Are you finding solutions to problems by coompromising your wants and needs just so you can find a quick solution and call the problem fixed? If not then you may not be a true "avoider." The avoidance you talk about may only be related to the sexual issues in your marriage.
Quote: At one of our few counseling sessions the C told me that I shouldn’t be worried about making the W cry. That concept really was alien to me and I still have trouble reconciling that with moving forward or being solution oriented.
You don't understand how confronting your wife, even if it makes her cry, is a good thing as far as solving a problem or moving the relationship in the right direction? Let me try and explain my take on this. You know how toxic and destructive it is to a relationship if one person is verbally abusive to the other? How utterly disrespectful of the person and the relationship? Anyone who could do that really cares nothing about the person or the relationship do they? Well, anyone who refuses to confront another person when it is needed is being just as toxic as someone who verbally abuses to get their way. No relationship can grow and become what is best for both people involved without conflict and the willingness to engage in that conflict.
Don't we all want our marriages to be a place of growth for us and our spouse? For that to happen we have to be willing to be each other's critic. You don't want to cause your wife to cry because you love her, that is understandable. Because you love her you are able to identify behaviors that might keep her stuck in a bad place emotionally and when you avoid conflict over these issues just so she won't cry then you are essentially holding her and yourself and your marriage back.
My ex husband did not love me, he did not care for the course of our marriage because his discomfort over seeing me cry and his fear over dealing with my anger was more important to him than whether or not we grew together as a couple.
You have to be willing to see your wife cry if it means doing what is best for both of you and your marriage.
Quote: Do admit I have been guilty of “put their need to avoid conflict before their need to make the relationship work”. I’ve done this in more areas than just my relationship…and I hate that…
You can't make the statement above and then come right behind it and say that you do respect yourself and the relationship. You may think you do but your actions say differently.
How do you deal with it? You develop good communication skills. You develop relationship tools that inable you to engage in conflict in a pro-active way. Do some reading and research. There is a very good book called Crucial Conversations that I read. It's small, cheap, an easy read and full of great examples of how to deal with different issues. First you have to make the decision of whether or not you, your wife and your marriage are important enough to you.
You know, she might not feel what you need is important because you have set that example by avoiding conflict and making so many compromises over the years. Something to think about.
Quote: Telling her about your feelings and requesting attention to your needs is all well and good but it leaves everything hangin in the air. What if she doesn't? What if she has good intentions but can't bring herself to do it? What if she just gets plain old lazy about it? Then what?
Yep, communication has to be coupled with action. We can all talk ourselves silly about what feels good or what feels bad but, until we take some sort of action to change the behaviors we've done nothing.
My ex and I used to do this. Talk the hell out of things, smile at each other, profess our love to each other then get up from the table and walk away. NOTHING ever changed because no one ever took any action that would warrant change.
You hear so much about how the most impotant tool one can have in a marriage is communication. Communicate, communicate, communicate. Well, I learned way to late that it means nothing if you aren't willing to take action and taking action can be a very simple thing. You just have to stop waiting around for the other person to be the one to take action. Cathy
I wonder what it is about a woman's tears that feels so bad to a guy? I'm not saying it's a bad thing-- it's no fun to make someone cry-- but it seems that to many guys, saying or doing something which triggers W's or GF's tears is right up there with thermonuclear war as something to be avoided at all costs.
When my bf did the vertical drop at the Undefended Love workshop, the sitch he chose to focus on was one where I am hurting and crying and there's nothing he can do about it. It doesn't even have to be that he caused it. When our dog Jessica died, I held her body on my lap when we drove out to my house in the country to bury her, and I just wailed and sobbed. He was absolutely beside himself! But it was something I had to do to just get the feelings out--
If something he says triggers (note I didn't say "causes") my tears, it's even worse.
Is it because tears are in the Women's Realm? A place where guys have been forbidden to go? Sort of like, not exactly a secret weapon... but something that's in a secret code... do they perceive it as a woman disappearing into a place where they cannot follow... they have to just sit and wait in agony until she crawls out?
___________________________
Okay, why do I stay?
My BF just called. He can be so darn sweet and cute in the right frame of mind. He thanked me for hanging in there with all of his cr@p, for being so supportive, for believing in him... hard to resist that. He's changed jobs again, and finally, I think he's in the right one, where he can enjoy some success. At moments like this, when he reaches out to me with sweetness and affection, I feel that I can hang in for the long haul...<sigh>
Hmmm, this is interesting. While MrHP doesn't like it when I cry, it doesn't bother him to the extent that is being described here. He sorta sees it as my problem, which of course it is. If I was crying because something happened to one of our children, he would comfort me and want my hurt to go away, but if it concerned our relationship I'm not sure that he would even stop what he was doing.
And yes, Lil, I know this is not in character with his people-pleasing personality (or more accurately, wife-pleasing) but what can I say. He is not moved by my tears, and sometimes it even seems to piss him off, as if he thinks I am doing it to manipulate him. Which I would NEVER do. I hate crying and avoid it like the plague. IF I were going to manipulate him, I would choose a method which does not leave me feeling like crud afterwards.
I will admit that I have been a major conflict-avoider in my marriage but recently I've been thinking that it's kind of understandable given my H's propensity to go totally "agro" when I do stand up for what I want. Why wouldn't I naturally want to avoid a scene like I had to deal with this weekend in which I was called a c*nt and a 200 year old kitchen counter was destroyed? I was able to hold on to myself during this encounter thanks to skills I've developed since being on this BB but I think it's important to recognize that in many relationships the reason one partner becomes a conflict-avoider is the other partner has the tendency to instantly bring out the big scarey guns in reaction to any conflict. I don't just mean physically aggressive behavior either. One example that pops to mind is the fact that several of the LD wives of men on this BB have threatened to leave as soon as their H's summon up the nerve to stand strong on the sex issue.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
“most of the time it meant him compromising on something he wanted.”  yeah I can see some of this in me.
“the lid blew off his pot and all that pent up frustration over compromising came out” This is actually how the W and I begin discussing the SSM issue. I just lost it and withdrew…we talked but as you mentioned took no real action and I felt better for a will…then back to the building of pressure.
“…say you are a problem solver and can take care of most issues with a discussion are you doing the same thing? Are you finding solutions to problems by compromising your wants and needs just so you can find a quick solution and call the problem fixed?” I guess I see it as anything is better than nothing so yes I do too much compromising…in regular life sometimes but mostly I look for the win-win.
“You don't understand how confronting your wife, even if it makes her cry, is a good thing as far as solving a problem or moving the relationship in the right direction?” I see your point…I guess it’s not different from the concept of by not acting on something you are acting on it. I’ve not looked at it this way before….it makes me sad to think I might have been toxic and held my marriage back, the opposite of what I thought I’m as working toward.
“You can't make the statement above and then come right behind it and say that you do respect yourself and the relationship. You may think you do but your actions say differently.” I guess I saw it as compromise, doing what I felt I needed to do to solve the problem….the problem is that in the end nothing is solved.
The marriage, my wife and me are important enough I’ll find the book and do some research
“You know, she might not feel what you need is important because you have set that example by avoiding conflict and making so many compromises over the years.” Yeah that is something I’m thinking about…it baffles me though how she could after all I’ve communicated to her…but now I’m questioning how well and clearly I did my communications.
Quote: I wonder what it is about a woman's tears that feels so bad to a guy? I'm not saying it's a bad thing-- it's no fun to make someone cry-- but it seems that to many guys, saying or doing something which triggers W's or GF's tears is right up there with thermonuclear war as something to be avoided at all costs.
This is true for my H as well. My tears make him very anxious, especially if he can't fix them right away. I think that women are more used to interacting with their female friends in such a way that either one can vent (or cry) and the other can hear her out without feeling like the feelings, especially the tears, need to be "fixed" right away.
But my experience with my H is different. Your choice of the word "trigger" was excellent. The partner needs to take the tears seriously but not too personally. It is true that men do not have much experience with tears - they learn early on to "fix", ie squelch, the emotions which cause tears. I tear up fairly easily (esp tear jerker movies) so H has had lots of chances to practice responding but that hasn't helped much.
Here is an email I sent my H yesterday, since I have been reading Schnarch's Passionate Marriage but H is less interested in reading it. (He was not offended by the subject line).
H particularly related to "A healthier differentiated self can self-soothe, be her own person and tolerate another's anxiety without getting too anxious." He recognizes that he cannot tolerate my anxiety (or tears) without getting too anxious himself, but doesn't know how to correct that.
(LP, this would apply, I would think, to your response to your BF's ED problem as well. Calm sympathy without making a big deal about it.)
Very glad for his "sweetness and affection" today. Doglover
There are many wise, empathetic and funny people here: you are my buddies - I'm grateful for your support.
Quote: Is it because tears are in the Women's Realm? A place where guys have been forbidden to go? Sort of like, not exactly a secret weapon... but something that's in a secret code... do they perceive it as a woman disappearing into a place where they cannot follow... they have to just sit and wait in agony until she crawls out?
Guys feel distressed when their woman cries partly because when men cry it is usually associated with a tremendous loss. Maybe women cry when a lower point value losses occurs. We think the loss is higher valued by observing the womans body language. We cry at an 8 loss and when we see women crying for a 6 loss, we think it ment 8 points to her.
We let the woman determine the value of her loss and when it looks like she had an 8 loss through her body language, we feel like we have to help. I guess guys have to learn not to add points to a womans loss.
Lil and other women, glad you posted something about women crying. It helps me to detach from womens pain and trying to make things better for them. I can see that some women need to go through the crying spell because that is the way they are and not as a failure on my part for helping, but not makeing things better.
Why do we feel uncomfortable around crying women? I guess its a dad thing we have built in us. Kind of like we are the caretaker that is supposeed to make everyone feel safe. I guess I have to see the difference between feeling safe and feeling a loss in someone else.
