LDW and HDH working on it

[doglover]

I'm starting a new thread (are threads cut off after 100 posts?). My old one was: LD spouse needs help

This has a more relevant subject line. I am feeling less desperate than at the beginning, but we are still having ups and downs.

We went to visit our son who's a grad student in another city for the weekend. Fri afternoon son was busy; I had envisioned getting some work (related to my job) done; H had apparently envisioned a sexual interlude. I thought - but didn't say - we could do both if only I got an hour of work done first. H (who is HD but has some ED) ultimately said it was too late and I had spoiled the whole weekend; nighttimes bad for him (testosterone lower?); mornings would be rushed; this was our only afternoon time but I had spoiled it. Both of us felt awful but needed to recover so as not to spoil son's weekend. Weekend OK in the end but no sex.

Very hard for me to figure out how to balance everything I need and want to do. M needs to be primary, but there's the job, the family (kids in their 20's but still an ongoing relationship), friends and ongoing community activities. Not to mention our individual hobbies which don't always mesh.

Now there's this BB - how do others spend so much time on this AND work on their Ms?

Then there the books I want to read. Just got "Passionate Marriage" but how to find the time to read it?

my reply to JustJenny and AtlDave

I don't see how all of you have the time to spend on the BB AND deal with RL. I, for one am having a hard time with that. Reading the BB has had to take 2nd place.

[I just got Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" delivered and started reading it - it is not a quick read. H was watching the baseball game and got mad: "our marriage would be in much better shape if you'd stop reading all those books and just become a baseball fan and watch all the games with me." But this really belongs on my thread not yours]

Doglover



From my previous thread:

We, Mr DogLover and I, had our 2nd MC appt yesterday.

We had not fared very well on our "homework" - to especially attempt to have some periods of intimate but nongenital interaction (massage, overall pleasuring etc). This was due both to the busyness of life and to some ups and downs in our interaction, as well as to MrDL's reaction which seemed to be that that was all well and good but why mess around with the appetizers when one could, and should, go right for the main course? (which, by the way, we did get to enjoy).

But all in all, our week had been more good than bad, since we both made a serious effort to be kind to each other and to put each other first.

[But I still feel that the "OW", whom I have come to believe is really just a good friend, and the email which MrDL sent her and I found by mistake (see my first posts), are very sore points for me. She has come to be known, by MrDL, as "she who cannot be named" whenever he alludes to her. I am not sure how to get over this, because it has caused a serious rift - I can no longer see her as a good friend of mine, and am jealous of the slightest interaction between her and MrDL. This has lead to several eruptions of anger or tears on my part. I gave the MC a copy of the email - I guess I was in a sense "tattling" on MrDL or, in any case, trying to get some perspective on it.]

Anyway, to continue, the MC urged us to see and to understand each other as separate and different human beings whose desires and ways of responding may differ yet still be quite legitmate. She urged us to empathize with each other and to "meet each other at the 50 yard line" rather than to stick to rigid definitions of what we thought was the "right" behavior - being "right" should not be the goal.

The MC suggested that some of what MrDL is doing may just not be working very well in the context of our R and may in fact be a bit provocative on his part. (Such as saying to me "wanna f**k?" - from his point of view, a perfectly reasonable suggestion, but when it comes out of the blue, and if I'm feeling pressed by other matters, it doesn't help me relax and doesn't turn me on. I'm working on the "just do it" response, but I'd love MrDL to try to talk my language from time to time - I know he can.)

We were urged to think about how we can have more "fun" in our relationship. Part of the problem seems to be that sometimes we have different definitions of "fun". Some of the things I think are fun, MrDL doesn't think are fun and vice versa. And so he sometimes concludes that I'm just not interested in having fun.

She got some of our life history, but seems to to want to deal more with the here-and-now. She gave us each a questionnaire to fill out and then to discuss with each other, to increase our communication with each other.

The questionnaire:

Perfect Lovemaking Scenario:
1. Before we make love, we: ___
2. To get aroused, we: ___
3. I especially want you to: ___
4. To give you pleasure I will: ___
5. As part of foreplay, we: ___
6. Concerning orgasm, I want: ___
7. To heighten my arousal, I would like you to: ___
8. To get really adventuresome, we could: ___
9. After we make love, I would like to: ___
10. As we enjoy the afterglow of lovemaking, we could: ___

Last week she recommended the book "Women Who Love Sex" (a title which seems more designed to sell books than to be descriptive of its contents) by Gina Ogden. I ordered it and it arrived very quickly. I have read the first chapter or two. It seems to have a holistic and feminist view of sexuality as being more inclusive than just genital arousal.

(MrDL, meanwhile, skimmed it while I was at work - it seems to me his main goal was to see if it had any good parts on women enjoying BJ's )

This week she also recommended Schnarch's book. I think she said it deals well with different styles of sexual interaction, but those of you who have read it know it better than I. I have also ordered that book.

I'm a little vague on the following but, in addition to filling out and discussing the questionnaire, she recommended something like: that this week each of us try one new way of interacting. Perhaps it's the theory that small changes by one or both partners can change a relationship?

DogLover

[CeMar]

doglover:

Your husband wants to ML and you want to work? Why? I am kind of curious since my wife LOVES to be busy. So why do you put other things AHEAD of your husband? Do you prefer to do other things before you ML? Why?

Another thing, when under stress, women will NOT want to ML, and yet you put yourself under stress. But this will also cause a bigger problem, when HD men are put under stress, this will INCREASE their need to have sex!

Here is the important question, what are your priorities in life?

[Lillieperl]

For once I have to agree with every word CeMar wrote.

DL wrote

I thought - but didn't say - we could do both if only I got an hour of work done first.

You say working on this problem is a priority, but you put your H off because you wanted to do ONE HOUR of work?

[Greeneyedlass]

Lillie,

I can't believe it but I'm going to chime in on this one too.

Doglover....Is (1) hour of work worth the pain and damage it can cause in your R? This, is a prime example of where you are putting something as a higher priority to your R....and making your H feel unimportant.

GEL

[MrsNOP]

Very hard for me to figure out how to balance everything I need and want to do. M needs to be primary, but there's the job, the family (kids in their 20's but still an ongoing relationship), friends and ongoing community activities. Not to mention our individual hobbies which don't always mesh.

You have to realize that your husband has this big pulsating, painful area in his heart and soul in regards to making love with you. Everytime you push him down a few levels of importance, you take a pointy object and poke him where it hurts. You can poke enough to where it will callous over and that part of his heart will never be accessible to you again.

Why couldn't your hour of work be accomplished afterward, rather than before?

Most of us live incredibly busy lives - it seems to be the predominant curse of modern life. I look back at my parents' schedule and daily life and they never approached the hecticness that is part and parcel of my life.

I would hazard a guess that once your husband experiences being number one in your life for a while and can trust that it won't go away, that there will be a relaxation of neediness.

MrsNOP -

[SolidMechanic]

...I had envisioned getting some work (related to my job) done; H had apparently envisioned a sexual interlude. I thought - but didn't say - we could do both if only I got an hour of work done first. H (who is HD but has some ED) ultimately said it was too late...

Very hard for me to figure out how to balance everything I need and want to do.

Dear DL,

I have a theory that's probably wrong, but here goes anyway:

Your behavior in this sitch seems like procrastination. You two basically had a date. How important, really, was getting an hour of work done? I imagine that when the hour arrived for your "date" - your moment of truth - that you might have been dealing with some pretty uncomfortable feelings. When you knew your H was expecting sex, how did you feel about it? Nervous, scared, afraid, anything negative like that? I wouldn't be surprised if you plunged into work as a way of avoiding these scary feelings.

I think it's really important that you get in touch with any kind of negative feelings that you might be having in anticipation of sex. It must be hard to enjoy it if the thought of it is scaring the daylights out of you. It's a good idea for you to talk to H about your feelings, too. Not as a way of making excuses, but of shedding light on your feelings and trying not to let them rule your actions in the future. Tell him that you are sorry you let these feelings take over and that you'll try to get in a better frame of mind next time. Oh, and make sure "next time" is really soon .

Of course, I could be wrong about the whole "procrastinating to avoid dealing with uncomfortable feelings" angle. If I'm wrong, well, Never Mind.

Keep it up DL, we're all rooting for you!

SM

[cally]

You said this.........M needs to be primary, but there's the job, the family (kids in their 20's but still an ongoing relationship), friends and ongoing community activities. Not to mention our individual hobbies which don't always mesh.


That's it right there. You7 could always give up some of those EXTRA things and put your relationship first. It's not like many of us on this board don't have busy lives also. But we find the time because we put our marriage as a priority. That one hour of work could have waited the way I feel. There was the long ride home wasn't there? Your spouse probably felt like crap that you used that as an excuse.

[InherJourney]

Hi DL... I agree with you that the marriage and my own personal sexual journey is very time-consuming; however, I feel good about making this my "project" because I have neglected these areas for so long. I am finding now that things have straightened out, I still want to keep my eye on the relationship ball; there is always room for growth, and I don't want to backslide. Once things start to improve, you get to a place of feeling more relaxed about all the conflicts...you start to develop confidence.

You and your H have some limitations that make a fluid, spontaneous sex life difficult. You are working with your LDness, and H has ED. I know for me, I had to get past my own stuff to see my H's struggle more clearly: he was always the one to initiate, and I felt very controlled, until I realized he was compensating for performance anxiety and didn't want to show me this. He was trying to work with me, in his way, but I misinterpreted a lot because of the bad communication. I walk a balance between being accomodating to him and figuring out what I need for me. BTW, I also struggle with feeling LD at times...sometimes if I don't think too much and just go with the flow, I am fine.

Keep working at it...what do you think of Passionate Marriage?

IHJ

[doglover]

Thanks for all the comments - I got the roasting I deserved. I haven't been doing a good job of setting priorities and SL has suffered.

(Just to put it in perspective, not that it justifies things - I took off work on Friday so we could leave early for the holiday, but was feeling guilty about not having accomplished enough last week at work and then taking a vacation day Fri. I was hopeful of making a computer program work and then emailing a colleague (actually a superior) who seemed anxious for the results. After I worked on it for an hour I solved one small problem but had to tell him the other was more complicated and I still couldn't make it work right. He wrote back not to worry, it's a long weekend and I should enjoy my weekend with my son. So I was stupidly - and unassertively - feeling stressed and guilty about my work to the detriment of my H and our R.)

But in general, I think a schedule would help us, especially given that various health related needs make various times better or worse for each of us. H flags in the evening, and is now semi-retired so he is sometimes up for an interlude in the a.m. when I am rushing around getting ready to go to work. H is usually very considerate of the fact that I take longer to reach O - which makes weekday a.m. harder. But perhaps we should plan on a "quicky" during the week (I think "Mars and Venus in the Bedroom" which I haven't read but skimmed in a bookstore, recommends quickies from time to time).

H is very resistant to a schedule - he thinks it sounds forced and would put him under pressure. But I am realizing I could schedule myself to be available weekend mornings without H realizing it. (I have a medication I take one morning a week which requires I take it first thing in the A.M. and not eat or go back to bed for at least 1/2 hour - since I look forward to that first cup of coffee in the a.m. I have jumped out of bed on sat or sun a.m. to take the pill and then get coffee before the caffiene withdrawal headache sets in - well it's not really that bad, but I do love/need that first cup. Anyway, I've realized I can take that pill on any weekday instead and leave the weekend a.m.s more relaxed.

I got 2 books in from Amazon this week - they couldn't be more different.

"Five Minutes to Orgasm Every Time You Make Love: Female Orgasm Made Simple" a slim paperback with a more lighthearted but almost mechanistic approach. Polished that one off fast. 3 basic steps but I only remember 2 right now: self stimulation and fantasy during IC.

"Passionate Marriage" is dense but fascinating. Hard to find the time to read it so it will take a while. Understanding how differentiation applies to us will take some time. It's good to read success stories though.

gotta scoot, thanks for the reality checks,
Doglover

[doglover]

I haven't posted for a while. (Mr Doglover has been sick with a nasty chest flu since Memorial Day and life has been busy with work and a lot of end-of-the-year board meetings for various community boards we belong to.)

Despite the lingering illness, we had a good weekend. Mr DL doesn't like the idea of a "schedule" but he's a morning person (which I usually am not) so I cleared the decks of any commitments for Sat and Sun a.m. Friday night I set down Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" and watched the last hour of the baseball game with H (I doubt I'll ever be a real fan like him but I could share a bit of it with him and he was very appreciative). We talked about sex and what we might do - which was a turnon for both of us - but planned it for the morning (is it weird to be turned on when you're in a sich where you know nothing will happen? E.g. I find holding hands in a movie theatre to be a big turnon). Sat a.m. we tried new things - not perfect, not swept away in a grand passion but very good and lots of fun; we kept our sense of humor and weren't derailed by problems positioning or almost falling off our small double bed, as sometimes in the past. Suffice it to say, a good time was had by both of us.

Some have questioned recently whether ED is the fate of all men when they get older. I don't know the stats - it is correlated with age, but also with various medical conditions such as diabetes or medications for hypertension (Mr DL's problem). So urge your H's to stay in good health!

The good news is that viagra is terrific (probably cialis too, but Mr DL can't take that due to its long lasting effect and interaction with other meds). It doesn't work perfectly 100% of the time but does most of the time. Plus Mr DL finds that there's a big emotional component as well. So when he's feeling really upbeat and turned on, Viagra isn't always necessary.

Regarding the phrase "geriatric sex" - the older one gets, the older "old age" seems to be. So although Mr DL is a senior citizen and I'm not too far behind, I refuse to take on the label of geriatric. From this vantage point, "geriatric" is in a nursing home. We're trying to stay young in mind and body - Mr DL has taken up Nautilus at the local Y and I have followed his lead.

Being older lends a certain poignancy to many decisions - how do we want to spend our time, together and apart? there's a bit less of it to spend from this vantage point so it's all the more important to make it good. So here's to a good SL - we're working on it.

I'm trying to be a lot more aware of the flickers of desire. We LD spouses sometimes get too used to letting the sparks die out. Now I'm recognizing those flickers and protecting them. Talking about them is one way and a turnon for both of us.

I leave you with one of Mr DL's original quotes (he really does have a way with words). For those of you who know the children's game "I love coffee but I don't like tea; I love muffins but I don't like bread ..." (hint: it's the double letter)

Mr DL says: "I love pussy, but I don't like cats"

(actually, he has liked some cats in the past but at heart is a doglover)

Doglover