I'm tweaking here a post that I recently made in another thread and into which I put a great deal of thought. While it was not quite completely in the context of that thread, I feel I've given a thorough and honest description - from the heart - of what it feels like for me being a high desire husband with a low desire wife. Yes - I'm angry - you'll sense that. But I also love my wife very very much (it's just not as obvious because it's not the topic of this thread). Outside of the issue of sex I could write two hundred times the volume of things about my wife that are indescribably perfect and make her a far better woman than I could ever hope to be worthy of...and that comes as much from the bottom of my heart as everything else I'm going to say below...which makes this situation all the more frustrating. And no, I'd never divorce my wife - not ever. Even if her genitals - or mine - disappeared in a puff of smoke tomorrow, there's no way on this earth I would ever be happier without her than I am with her. So many times the wife with an HD husband complains that she feels that he only wants her for sex; only married her for sex. But is that true? Well - yes - and no. I think the following is a reasonable description of the situation, and while I am not trying to be offensive or condescending in any way, it is my hope that some wives might, from reading the following, gain some helpful information that will help them better - perhaps much better - understand part of how their husband's minds work as regards this issue of marital sexual expectations.
There are many things that can easily result in a woman's desire being lower. Recent pregancy; bad day at the office; time of the month; messy house; less help or attention from her husband.
An HD man's sexual desire, on the other hand, is not so easily turned off. He's got a part of himself that's hardwired and it's not going to stop wanting sex when he's not getting enough of it any more than he's going to stop getting thirsty when he's not getting enough water. Now...yes...over temporary and reasonable periods like the months immediately following the birth of a child...he must be considerate of his wife's feelings. And under NO circumstances is he ever justified in forcing himself on her. If and when his wife is having reasonable and understandable down times, he can and probably should consider masturbation the only reasonable solution to that dilemma...just as when he's a teen and sex isn't (or shouldn't be) an option either.
But let's get one thing straight. A man doesn't get married to not have sex. That's not to be crude and say that sex is all a man gets married for, but when you stop to think about it...all the other "reasons" why anyone of either gender would ever conceivably want to get married - love, companionship, conversation partner, mutual respect, desire to share lifelong goals...you name it...a man DOESN'T "have" to get married for any of them. Take the sexual component out of the picture, and he could just as easily become roomates with his best male buddy and get all of those other things! This may appear questionable at first glance, but really think about it, and I don't believe you could honestly name ONE thing other than sex that a wife can give a husband that a close male buddy couldn't just as easily provide. Even if he wanted to be a parent - he could adopt. So why should he make the lifetime comittment of marriage? When he does so, he assumes lifetime responsibility for financial support, child support, even the "for worse" risks of potentially becoming a Michael Schiavo should his wife become a vegetable - and for the record I believe Michael Schiavo was nothing but a selfish pig who did the WRONG thing - a real husband would have accepted the obligation to love and care for that woman as long as she naturally remained alive and responsive, which she was, no matter what the liberal judges we willing to believe.
Back to my point, though, what is the only real reason why a man would want to assume the risks of such responsibilities and get married? One reason and one reason only: for the legal, societal, and possibly religious "blessing" to have sex. Remember: we have already established that all the other benefits of marriage could have been obtained by shacking up with a close best male buddy.
I'm not trying to be crass here...but just pointing out a way of looking at it that is very likely to be far closer to an HD husband's actual way of looking at it than to that of the LD wife. My point here is to encourage the LD wife to consider the husband's likely point of view - even if it may not be something she really finds comfortable to hear, it's very likely the truth, and being aware of this can only help, because ignorance (or denial) are NOT bliss.
I repeat that I sincerely do not want to step on toes and offend any women here. I am saying this from the heart, as a means of helping you better understand the husband's point of view. I realize some of what I have said may sound very bad and offensive anyway...but perhaps it might help to think about it this way. If you are an LD wife, imagine yourself as someone who has grown up all your life playing with dolls and dreaming of someday being a mother. Now you meet and marry the perfect husband...the one person throughout your whole life that you've got society's approval to have a baby with. But then, somewhere after marriage, he gets bogged down with his work, he's reasonably tired (just like you are right now in real life as a result of having had a baby)...he decides he just doesn't want the stress; he doesn't want to be a dad...he decides he doesn't want children anymore. Now you're stuck. Without his cooperation, you'll never have that baby you grew up dreaming of having, and there's not anything you can do about it other than possibly get a divorce and try to find a more children-minded man to marry who will be willing to father children with you.
Well, just as you grew up playing with your dolls and dreaming of getting married and having a real live baby of your own, your man grew up playing with his penis and dreaming of getting married and having a real actual sex life after that marriage. And morally he knows that marriage and the assumption of all of its obligations (as I mentioned above) is the price he has to pay. So he pays it - and marries you.
Then, somewhere down the line, you, for whatever reason, renege on that expectation. Maybe at first for a good reason, or maybe for a not so good reason...but whatever the reason, your husband's reaction and situation are really the same. He now has to live with the fact that he gave up his whole life - he used the one and only chance he morally is ever supposed to have in his whole life to marry a wife who will satisfy him sexually and enjoy doing so his whole life long (that second part is important too!!!) - and he blew it. He might think the world of you in every other way - he might never ever consider leaving or divorcing you becuase outside of sex he still believes you're the most wonderful woman in the world...but even if that's true, deep down, SEXUALLY speaking, he also knows that he's made the worst mistake of his life (agan, I emphasize, SEXUALLY), and is now stuck with someone who isn't going to meet what for him is a very strong and very basic drive. Remember, it's as important to him as having a baby was for you (in my hypothetical example - I know not all women feel so strongly about having children but it is the only example I could think of to reasonably compare with how consumingly important sex is to the HD husband). Anyway, he now a choice of going through life missing out on the sex he could have had if he had made a better choice - or he can get a divorce and try for better luck next time (if his values allow it).
Some women may howl when first reading that, but, offensive or not, outrageous or not, the honest and undeniable fact of the matter is that it's true, so it might as well be out in the open so it can be faced and considered.
Look at it this way. If a husband refused his wife affection and romance, 100 percent of all women would agree that it would be perfectly understandable and not at all unreasonable if the wife were not receptive to his sexual advances. And I as a man would fully agree too, and I suspect that most men would also (even if some wouldn't easily be willing to admit it).
But by the same token, it is no more unnacceptable or chauvanist or unreasonable to say that if the wife turns down his ONE basic need - sex - he's not going to feel like giving back to her the "things" she wants. What "things?" Well that varies between women, but I'm talking about "affection," "appreciation," "compliments," and even the "lesser" things like flowers, candy, expensive dinners, lengthy foreplay...you name it. You see...there are dozens of things that could be added to that list, that common marriage books and counselors will say a husband needs to do for his wife in order to increase her sexual desire. Now - this next statement is a bit of an exaggeration but it's not far off the mark: He's expected to do ALL those things...and all he asks for in return is sex - that, with reasonable frequency, she just spread her legs and have a good time with him! Sex is something ENJOYABLE that FEELS GOOD and it's FUN. If the man were the woman and that's all he had to do to get all the things many women consider prerequisites to being in the mood - he'd consider himself having made out like a bandit and probably feel guilty having nothing but pleasure while SHE were the one who had to do all the WORK of those hundreds of things many of which are really a lot more work and obligation (they involve SHOPPING AND CHORES after all) than pure fun, like sex is!
So...if she isn't willing to do that ONE thing for him - sex - which is a FUN thing to do - why should he be expected to feel like continuing to do the 100 things she likes...many of which AREN'T fun?
What I'm saying here is that the fact of the matter is that the women have it EASY. It takes a lot less to keep a husband happy than it does to keep a wife happy. So why do the wives have such a big problem doing it? Those who don't make that effort - and consequently find their husbands less willing to do all the things wives think a loving husband should do - definitely get what they deserve.
I recommend that you read through Cemar's posts and check for similarities with what you describe. Cemar is a very angry guy and it mostly keeps him from getting anywhere positive in his M.
I honestly feel for all the HD guys out there and agree that it is considered more socially acceptable for women to be LD. However, the many, many HDW's on this board will tell you that we don't feel it is any more natural for women to be LD than it is for men to be LD. The HDW's on this board for the most part have always been the more HD partner and have had to deal with the reality that while an LDW can "just do it" despite not being all that interested it won't happen that way with a LDH. Then there is the additional issue of talking over his LD without stripping him of his masculinity.
In the end result the only way anyone on this board ever got anywhere is through clear, consistent communication with their S about their needs. The emphasis on mutual trust, love and committment and letting go of much of the anger and resentment is imperitive.
I don't know enough of your personal situation to make specific suggestions but I do suggest that you read through the Nopkins posts to see the evolution of a marriage from sex starved to mutually fulfilling. All this despite having an LD wife who "had her reasons."
Although I've only been looking at these boards for the last couple of weeks - and not really in any great depth or detail - I'm reasonably familiar enough with Cemar's posts, and I can honestly say I don't feel THAT degree of anger. Or even close to it...honestly.
Honestly, (at least at times, in relation to my times of sexual frustration) I see myself relating much more closely to the feelings expressed by another member - GeekSpeek - in fact, it was a post by GeekSpeek that initially struck me as expressing so closely the feelings I have on the matter that I was prompted to register and voice my understanding of his feelings. Now, there are still differences...for one, in my marriage there are no children involved as is the case for GeekSpeek...and also it sounds like he's been a bit further down the road of overall marital struggles - to the point of working with a counselor and still not making satisfactory progress.
I know posting here is just skirting the issue. You wouldn't believe it to listen to me here, becuase obviously when I'm "venting" I'm emphasizing the negative and getting it out of my system...but I hope my above post gave you a glimpse of the positive side of my feelings and the deep, deep love I really do have for my wife...I just don't emphasize that here because it's not something I have to "vent!"
I come here, blow off those feelings, and then go back to business as usual.
And yes, my wife and I have always been able to eventually work things out and I'm sure we'll eventually communicate and work this out too. The issue is - as I mentioned on another post - that there are other personal issues of her own that my wife is working through (which I try to help her with, but basically they are issues that ultimately she's going to have to address for herself. These are issues that are outside of sex that I am not going to go into on these boards, but of course they create a tension in her life which spills over into our sex life as well...I understand that). And what is happening right now is that these are things she has her ups and downs with...and right now it is a particular down and I'm having a difficult time keeping my patience, although I do because I know I have to or these other issues will only get worse. And I have to be the shoulder she has to cry on and talk to and rely on support for these issues of hers...it's just that currently it's getting very difficult for me to do so because - and you got a taste of this in my above post - it's a big thing that I'm doing for her and getting nothing in return. When I say even a little give on her part would go a long long way...I mean it. I'm just currently in a mood - after several years of this - where I'm TEMPORARILY (I hope) at the end of my patience. I need a little time to cool off and then put my normal smiling face back on and keep dealing with it. In the meantime, rather than "blow a gasket" as someone else described their frustration, I come here and vent, because I sure don't want to blow up at my wife. That would not help anything.
She has things to talk about that she has difficulty bringing up, just as I have my own things. But we've been in similar situations before...we are eventually going to break the ice and start talking...and things will be looking up again. We've gotten out of these sorts of "funks" before and then things go well ... and that will happen again. Thanks, however, for your concern.
And...as I said in "your" thread (The Making of an LDW) which was the thread I alluded to at the beginning of this post...I really appreciate your coming in here and trying to help, especially after I so carelessly bounced into your thread and filled it with all my venting which wasn't appropriate for what you were looking for at all. For that I apologize again, and thank you thank you for being understanding and even trying to help after the way I cluttered your thread with all those probably-not-so-helpful comments.
One thing I have learned on these boards is that we all have issues regardless of our level of desire. Our S invariably bears the brunt of them and that impacts the overall feelings of well being of the marital unit. Many of us on this board have particularly found the book Passionate Marriage to be helpful. Have you read it?
Short, I can really relate. In my M, I think this has been a significant reason we wound up where we are. I discussed this with W when we first started realizing we were in trouble. She said she'd wished I'd told her years ago, that it was perhaps to late now. Looking back, I think the whole HD/LD issue was present before we got married and much more important than I recognized. For me, while I love my wife and family and would love for things to work out, I also feel that I need to be happy too. I hate to be cliche, but we all only really live once and life is horribly short. We (at least me) are midlife before we know what we want, what is important, etc. In that regard, I don't see how one could or should live in a situation that is in a sense, futile. My upbringing and values are that I should marry once until death do us part, but the more I endure this situation, the more I see that- this may not work. I may get D. But life will probably go on and things, while different, may be ok. I just don't see staying in my present situation for another year.
Shortchanged, the book is Passionate Marriage by David Schnarch, definitely worth reading ( there was a lot of discussion of it here on SSM when I joined the board a yr ago...you may want to search for those threads).
Oh, and thanks for the info on LDH's on Karen's thread. I feel that a lot of those suggestions would have been beneficial years ago, before my marriage became the wreck it was. For example, lighting candles would seem like pressure to my H ( who has blamed his LD-ness on my rejection), while I know that my friend does this regularly as her "signal" to her H. The more damage, the more you both become immune to the " normal" seductive maneuvers, which are seen as pressure/control. I have had to walk a blancing act of not being forward in any way but at the same time not being closed off on any particular nite, which proved to be too difficult a task given my fluctuating desire. I am fortunate enough to have my H working with me on all this, and in the end, we ML now on a schedule.
Good luck with your convos with W...knowing that you have turned things around before is very powerful.
One thing I do require at this point is that it be "balanced" and not another one of those ones that spends 299 pages discussing all the things the husband might be doing "wrong" and how he should just go on working and begging and being patient and settling for anything he gets and 1 page - if that - talking about what a WIFE can and should do for her HUSBAND. I've read umpteen of those types of books (and - honestly - put a lot of time and effort to putting that advice to practice, with insufficiently satisfactory results), and I'm not about to accept yet another.
That particular book takes an entirely different and much more cerebral tack. The issue of LD and HD is not seen as a symptom of a marriage gone awry but rather a normal process. In fact there is an LD/HD partner on every issue -one of you is probably more HD on how clean the house is, or on issues about children or on keeping to a budget or a million other things. PM "Passionate Marriage" notes some reasons that people are LD but refuses to make either partner the one with the pathology.
I found it FAR more helpful than any of those tired books about this is how "men" are and this is how "women" are because for me (and HP, GEL and many other ladies here) that makes us feel as if we are the "men." In fact, our reasons and our feelings about sex are distinctly feminine although we want more sex than our H's. We don't want to be the man but we want to have sex as often as those books describe men wanting it. We would absolutely LOVE to just light a candle and put on something pretty, or trashy and have our H fall all over himself seducing us back. As IHJ says these are measures that may have worked well early on but I suspect not. I suspect that we are navigating throught the normal processes of marriage where each of us has to grow up, speak up and take responsibility for ourselves. These are tough lessons especially when the inevitable curve ball is thrown.
If you have been able to turn things around with your W before what helped then? Is it something you can try now.
