Truly, if your wife would cut you off in such a cruel way--no more kissing or hugging or touching or helping you with your brace, for goodness sakes--simply because you stated that you wanted to kiss her when you wanted to and not have to ask 'permission', then your problems are much deeper than an SSM.
Think about what you are saying and ask yourself if this sounds like a relationship in which you even want to be. I'm NOT saying to ditch her, or anything of the sort. I'm just saying to screw up your courage and unilaterally change the mother/son dynamic thing you have going on. Simply stop playing by those rules. At the same time, you should be respectful of her and kind and considerate--all those things would preclude being pawing and grabby.
It was VERY hard, probably the hardest part of the process, for me to learn how to be myself in front of H. I was afraid and shy and awkward. But it had to be done.
I liked the story but your wife knows there is no easy and tidy answer. She knows that a device would not be the sole thing that will help her rediscover her desire for you--that requires intimacy and intimacy requires talking and honest communication. Really, it's where you have to start as uncomfortable as it is.
GEL is absolutely right. You must act in spite of your fear of your W.
I'm going to take the liberty of putting an Undefended Love spin on this: arjnex, go off by yourself somewhere and think about reaching out to your wife either sexually or in affection and imagine (or remember) the worst, most hurtful time... imagine feeling as rejected, worthless, dejected, hopeless, etc., as you have EVER felt. And then just stay with that feeling. Cry if you want/need to, but avoid explaining, re-describing it to yourself, telling yourself it will be better, telling yourself it will never be better-- just try to abandon all self-talk. Banish all logic, reasoning, and adult thinking for the duration of this experiement. Be like a baby in a crib crying and not knowing if anyone will ever come. If you can do this and stick with it, this feeling will eventually (after a few minutes) go away.
The level of fear you experience when contemplating touching your W tells me that this is a very old fear. It is disproportionate to the current situation, as GEL pointed out. This fear of your W's displeasure is left over from a time when you were a child and depended on the good favor of your caregivers for your very survival. Now you are an adult, and your survival no longer depends on the favor of anyone unless they are standing in front of you with a gun. Not to say that life wouldn't be better if you and your W had more warmth before you, but you don't need to be afraid of her at the level that you are.
Go to that place where you are afraid and sit with the fear for a while, not naming it, not distracting yourself, not explaining or justifying (believe me, this can be a challenge, and this process is done more easily with a facilitator-- but you CAN do it alone).
Greeneyedlass, I told her. She didn't take it well, complaining of being tired as she's not been sleeping much for the past few nights, and also complaining of all the "pressure" she's under, but she didn't totally blow up on me. (I was worried, though, as I heard what sounded like door or drawer slams coming from the bedroom afterwards.) She did try to call three of the psychs I looked up for her and left messages, saying afterwards, "Is that satisfactory? Are you satisfied?" I responded, "You did very well." But I can tell that any further mention of sex today will probably just upset her worse. And she didn't kiss me goodbye, or even say "goodbye," when she left for the store just now.
Lillieperl, thanks for your input. I'm going to have to reply to it in more depth later, because I don't really understand what you're talking about after reading it just now. But I think this is tied in with more than just childhood fears.
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
Excellent job!! What you did took courage, but you did it! And, her reaction...isn't to be unexpected, so don't fret too much about it....but she didn't storm out of the house either did she? The worst possible thing that you feared didn't happen did it? Sounds like the worst that happened to me is she threw up some excuses as a smoke-screen. Now, she has some things to think about...so give her a little space....but that doesn't mean you backoff completely.
What you did...is communicate clearly to her. She's bound not to like it right now, but that's ok...you do have to start somewhere....and waiting for the "right time" does nothing but waste time....there will never be a right time for things like this. You cannot wait for that "right time" to work on your R and ask for what you need.....she needs to know the same applies for her. She needs to know, it's ok to ask you for what she needs too.
Right now you are probably waiting for that other shoe to drop aren't you? Well, I'll be honest, it may....but in reality what you are doing is forcing her to listen to you, to take you and the problems in your R seriously....and that my friend, is a good thing.
You've done really well...you should be proud of yourself for stretching your limits for the sake of saving and improving your R. The next time you have to have a talk with your W...it will still be intimidating, I won't lie....but it will get easier, that I do promise...eventually you'll find you will be ok bringing up your wants/needs.
Great job!! I'll check in on you tomorrow...now, go get some rest!
GEL
Thank you, Greeneyedlass. I guess there may be a teeny glimmer of hope for me yet, eh?
She's stayed away from me all evening thusfar, though it's hard to know if it's because she's upset with me, or just because she's tired. I just now reached out and grasped her hand, and she said, "I'm tired...I've got a sore throat and I'm achy." Guarded optimism, I guess.
Now that I've got that message through to her, I need to figure out what other messages would help reinforce that.
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
She's definitely on the defensive isn't she? Once again, it's to be expected. I suspect she's gotten it entrenched in her brain that any touch from you must mean you want something "sexual"...or at least something more of her. Which in reality you do want something more, you want to have physical contact of some sort....even if it's merely holding her hand, but you might try reassuring her....when she throws up those smoke-screen excuses that all you wanted to do when you reached out for her hand....was to hold her hand, nothing more right then (if that's the case.)
She needs to understand that not all physical contact leads to sex for you. Sure, you may want it to lead to sex at times....but as I know all too well, sometimes just snuggling, holding hands, or a kiss is really all we can be after, just some affection.
I'm sure others on here will have some great suggestions for you as to how to proceed on this too....but for me, right now I'd work on letting her know she's loved (you do this well) and letting her see that just because you want to touch her doesn't mean you ALWAYS want it to go anywhere. So perhaps next time you reach out for her for a hug, a kiss, or even just to hold her hand and she throws up an "I'm tired" at you....tell her, "honey, I just want to hold your hand....or hug you....or give you a kiss, that's all. (or whatever fits at the time).
I know with my H he went through a time where he wouldn't have any contact with me at all...he'd steer clear of me physically....because he really thought all I thought about was sex (because I finally communicated what I needed/wanted)...so anytime I'd try to touch him I'd get the cold shoulder.
I think most of our SO's have gone through this when we've tried to communicate with them about the lack of physical affection or sex in our R's. For a time, until they understand how important it is, it's as if they hear us saying "you're flawed!", "you're wrong!", "there's something wrong with you!"....naturally they don't think they are any of these things so they resist, who wouldn't?
I'm pretty sure you are being very careful not to convey these messages to her, but she's likely to feel this way anyway...regardless of what you say/do. So just be patient, be consistent in your words & actions, and stay loving towards her.
But do prepare yourself for your next conversation, keep mental notes as to what you want to address...you might even want to start yourself a journal, that helps me. I'm able to vent when I need to, write down the positives, and then every now and then go back and read what I've written. There are times I think we're getting nowhere, but then I read through my journal and see the progress we truly have made....and sometimes I see where there's a recurring issue, obviously that issue needs to be addressed; either I need to talk to my H about it, or it's something within me that I need to address.
That's just a tool that I have some success with, it might help you too to get through this.
I just now reached out and grasped her hand, and she said, "I'm tired...I've got a sore throat and I'm achy." Guarded optimism, I guess.
“And how does holding your hand make your throat sorer and your body achier?” Arj, I think you need to confront her when she throws up these road blocks. They’re probably habit now and she might not even be conscious of doing them.
I’m going to be a bit blunt here. I’ve read through the thread again. There are times where you walk on egg shells as if you were some unwanted guest in your own home and other times, your comments are very condescending.
Quote:
She did try to call three of the psychs I looked up for her and left messages, saying afterwards, "Is that satisfactory? Are you satisfied?" I responded, "You did very well."
is arrogant. It’s like a verbal pat on the head. Instead, try to say something like, “Thanks, that makes me happy that you took the time to do this.” You need to let her know that her efforts are making you happy, but not in a way that sounds like she is a student and you’re the teacher. Had my husband said something like that to me in a similar situation, I probably would have come back with some rude comment that I can’t type here.
Quote:
In response to a direct question of "Are you disappointed/upset?" from her, I would respond, "Yes, I am, but I have accepted your decision in this matter for the moment."
I don’t like this wording either. It’s egotistical and doesn’t give her anything to think about except a veiled threat.
“Yes, I’m upset, but more than that, I’m frustrated. We’ve been living like roommates instead of soulmates for the last four years. And now that I’ve finally gotten up the nerve to try to do something about it, it seems like every attempt I make to bring some affection back into our relationship is stonewalled. I realize that you’re not feeling well, but keep in mind that I’m not physically capable of sex right now either. Sex and affection are two different things.”
Quote:
Last night, I finally worked up the gumption to ask her, "May I touch you for a moment?"
This is the walking on egg shell type behavior that I mentioned. I can relate here. There were times during the last year that I had felt so disconnected from my husband that I felt that I needed to ask for a hug rather than just walk up and put my arms around him.
The only solution that I can think of is to let her know how odd it feels to you that you think that you need to ask permission to touch her (it doesn’t matter if you think it’s odd or not, you’re putting the thought in her head), instead of just reaching out.
Wow, ME1967, did you really intend to rip me a new one, or what? If so, maybe I deserve it, but it's hard not to want to act gently.
OK, I can see where "You did very well" could be viewed as arrogant. But compare to my wife's previous comment: "Is that satisfactory? Did that satisfy you?" As if she were trying to find a psych who could help her with insomnia solely for my benefit! Perhaps I just latched onto what I said as the only thing that came to mind at the moment.
Quote: “Yes, I’m upset, but more than that, I’m frustrated. We’ve been living like roommates instead of soulmates for the last four years. And now that I’ve finally gotten up the nerve to try to do something about it, it seems like every attempt I make to bring some affection back into our relationship is stonewalled. I realize that you’re not feeling well, but keep in mind that I’m not physically capable of sex right now either. Sex and affection are two different things.”
Something about this comment seems too "angry" to me. I don't want to get "too angry." That could have the effect of either crushing her spirit or driving her away, and neither of those outcomes will move us forward. Even after I made pretty much the exact comment I suggested above and Greeneyedlass concurred with--which I originally thought was "too angry"--she was somewhat cool towards me for a couple of days afterward, and that was scary, especially as it seemed like she was pushing to get me not requiring her assistance as much, sooner than would have been prudent.
Perhaps I need to express to her how hard I am trying not to hurt her with what I say, and how difficult it is to balance that with the tremendous desire I feel for her. That might discharge some of the tension that causes me to "walk on eggshells," as you put it. But there are no guarantees.
Now, recent developments. The most important one is non-sex-related; I now have the ability to unlock my leg brace and bend my knee enough to get myself behind the wheel of my car, so I no longer need her to drive me to work. (On the downside, I'll be back in the office 5 days a week.) I do need to re-lock the brace in the fully-extended position to stand up and walk around, though, but I've practiced the maneuvers and can perform them adequately.
So, yesterday, when I was out at lunch for the first time since the operation, I had to stop at the drugstore to pick up a couple of items, including more hand cream. While I was there, I found a wonderfully romantic card for her, then took some time while at the office to write a message in it expressing my gratitude for all the help she's given me, and also expressing that I truly desired her and I was confident all our problems could be worked out, and we'd wind up with a stronger relationship as a result.
After I got home that evening, I quietly managed to slip the card onto her computer keyboard, where she found it later after we'd watched a movie out in the living room. She said, "Oh, you didn't have to do this!" as she brought the card back out and opened it. She read it silently, then set it down, came over to my recliner, sat on the arm, and embraced me, giving me several soft kisses, saying, "Thank you, sweetie, you really didn't have to do that!" As I held her and stroked her back, I told her, "I wanted to do it." She was considerably warmer to me after that, reversing the slide that happened after I made the comment to her above. She even helped me with a full-immersion bath later, and suggested that I might want to sleep in the bed that night, instead of on the couch. (I did wind up on the couch, though, because I had to come in to the office today to finish up some important work, and it was better to let her have the bed so she could rest without having me banging around while getting ready to go the next morning.)
I've got another idea, inspired by some comments upthread, about what I could ask her to do that might help: she could write me an E-mail message, describing a sexual encounter between us. As in, where would it be, what we'd be saying to each other, what I'd be doing to her and how that would make her feel, what she'd be doing in return, and so forth. That, at least, would require her to exercise nothing but her imagination. And I'll take part, too, sending her one in return. I don't know if she'll go for it, but, if she does, I'm looking forward to reading what she comes up with.
- "A"
"Everything that happens, happens. Everything that, in happening, causes something else to happen, causes something else to happen. Everything that, in happening, causes itself to happen again, happens again."
Quote: Wow, ME1967, did you really intend to rip me a new one, or what? If so, maybe I deserve it, but it's hard not to want to act gently.
That was not my intention at all. I was just stating my observations as I reread your thread. I am sorry if I came across as harsh. That is not what this forum is about and I feel horrible that I have hurt you in some way.
I reread my post prior to final posting and thought that I had caught and reworded everything that might be construed as hurtful, but apparently I missed. I suppose that is why verbal communication is so much better than written - the tone of voice and body language....
Quote: Something about this comment seems too "angry" to me. I don't want to get "too angry."
I am a firm believer that, dependent on your delivery - your tone and your body language (as I said above) - you can pretty much say anything that comes to mind to someone that you have built a rapport with; as long as you are honestly sincere and use "I" statements. Most people will unconsciously read your body language and listen to your tone of voice before they process your words.
