Any hope after divorce? Part deux

[Just_Me]

Hey,

If things had only started this way a month ago I might have been able to derail this D train. I think there is no chance that it will be called off before we're divorced. Unfortunately I feel like we are getting more connected every day. I think I'm finally on to what may work. Actually pursuing.

Today I talked to her several times on the phone in the morning. I swung by her place while test driving a car, then had her come to check out this other car. While there I pulled her to me and she didn't resist the hug.

Later this afternoon she came over and chose to sit by me on the small couch. I pulled her onto my lap and she stayed there letting me hold her for awhile. I offered her several choices...backrub and some sexual stuff. We actually had fun with the whole proposition game. It was very relaxed...nothing uncomfortable about it at all. The rest of the night was pretty similar in terms of physical stuff. A fair amount of hugging or just tender touching that she didn't necessarily pull away from. We talked later when it was just us and she said that she felt things were better than they've been in a long time. How come we are so good now?
She did say she was concerned about this going too far...I think in terms of physical stuff. Some of our previous worst fights we had came up and I apologized and said I was stupid then. Stubbornly only interested in winning fights and being defensive that she was being critical of me.

Later she told me she thought I was a good man and didn't deserve for this to happen to me. I told her she was a good woman and I understood that with the way things were how this came about. We got pizzas to cook and had a pretty decent dinner. Unfortunately when we were planning on going to a movie my S-D did something that required punishment so she couldn't go to the show with us. I hugged her and thanked her for a great day. I told her I'd go to the mother's day thing but promised I wouldn't do any propositioning or the physical stuff since it might get weird in front of the family. A wonderful sign for me would be that she initiates that stuff while I'm there.

This was the best day I've had with her in months. I wish I had initiated days like this sooner, but maybe she just wasn't ready. I don't know.

Bruce, you wanted me to share. I feel like I've reached a point where no rejection, etc, can hurt me. I said some of the things that are considered pursuing (I told her I miss her and said..."is that wrong" and she told me no) and initiated physical stuff, but I didn't get the sense she didn't enjoy it or really want to ....just that she didn't know what to do with us.

Well, that's it for the night. i'm off to bed with my boys. I have no illusions. By next week or at most the week after, I will have that piece of paper that says I'm no longer married. But I feel more connected to her than I have in months. We talked through some old stuff that needed aired out. God I wish I had reached this point sooner, but maybe this was the pace it had to be.

Sage? Are you out there? You were always the one saying "don't do dark" and I feel you're right. Now what do I do? Just more of the same? So fellow fool committee, your thoughts?

[JRB]

If things had only started this way a month ago I might have been able to derail this D train. I think there is no chance that it will be called off before we're divorced. Unfortunately I feel like we are getting more connected every day. I think I'm finally on to what may work. Actually pursuing.
...
Sage? Are you out there? You were always the one saying "don't do dark" and I feel you're right. Now what do I do? Just more of the same? So fellow fool committee, your thoughts?

Not Sage, but I had this thought. Is it possible that what you are doing is working because the D train is further along? I sometimes think that my W would let our R heal some more, except that she is afraid that will set her back on this D course she is on. The closer she gets to putting a stake in this M, the more comfortable she seems. You might be right, that in your sitch pursuing was what was needed. I offer the other possibility as a consideration.

If what you are doing now seems to be working, I say keep doing it.

[Just_Me]

Hi JRB,

Is it possible that what you are doing is working because the D train is further along?

Yeah, I think it's a combination of the D train moving along, plus the way I've handled it. After my initial bitterness, I've got back to where I'm happy just to be with her, regardless of our marital status. I think that makes her more comfortable that she doesn't have to worry that I hate her for pursuing the D.

My update for the day. Another pretty good day. She called last night at about 2 am. I didn't hear it since I was completely zonked. I called this morning and she told me her sister asked her to go out to listen to this band last night. Turns out her sister got arrested for DUI and her sisters boyfriend got arrested for an outstanding warrant, leaving her alone with the cops. So she called to see if I'd come get her. I was sleeping though. Later she told me about some guy hitting on her at the bar. He sounded desperate. She made a fairly big point of indicating she had no interest. She said "I wish you were there to tell him to get lost"

She came over and made a cake and hung out. She does have a fair amount of comfort around me...she showed me the area I had done minor surgery on while I was in the tub and didn't seem too concerned to be around me in that state. We still hugged and such. At one point she said come here...and led me in the bedroom to dance with me.

The rest of the day up to this point we were at the mother's day party. Although I said I wouldn't attempt to hold her or anything so that her family wouldn't get the wrong impression I find I couldn't help myself. It went fine though. I'm glad I went. Her family is really cool and fun to be around.

That does it for updates. I'm happy. (see the grin).

Have a good week everyone. Hope things are well.

[sage]

Sage? Are you out there? You were always the one saying "don't do dark" and I feel you're right. Now what do I do? Just more of the same? So fellow fool committee, your thoughts?

Hey...I'd say more of the same for a bit and see how it goes. I do wonder about the physical advances that you've made with w...when I read the description of them it often seems like w isn't enjoying herself...am I reading that wrong? If not, I'd say really back off on those because physical advances that aren't welcome can feel unrelentingly invalidating...work on meeting w's other needs first...(what's her LL? I forget).

Tell me again...have you read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus"?

Sage

[Just_Me]

Hey Sage,

Answer to two questions about the books...no and no. Haven't read the love lines so I don't know what the lines are. I do think I know what does it for her though. Answer to this...

I do wonder about the physical advances that you've made with w...when I read the description of them it often seems like w isn't enjoying herself...am I reading that wrong?

I've got a fair read on my wife from the physical attention standpoint. No, she does enjoy herself for the most part. She was smiling the whole time. Several examples...whatever day it was she sat on the couch next to me and I pulled her on my lap. She actually made no move to pull away, she looked into my eyes while we talked, she put her arms around my neck. While at the party she was really worried about her parents because they hadn't showed up as soon as expected and looked sad/scared. I didn't pull her down, just held my arms out and she came and sat on my lap and let me hold her. We talked a number of times where the hugging and stuff happened as a result of just being in close proximity while talking. I kept anything of more a sexual nature to a very minimum. It was mainly just lighthearted talk about that. I will be wary though that I don't overdo it.

For the most part the weekend was about her other needs. I didn't get into great detail, but we mainly talked. Some of it was about things that went wrong in the marriage in a more lighthearted way, but mainly just talking. I don't have to read the book to know my wife's thing is talking. We connect that way and that's what we mainly did this weekend.

She's also reasonably physical. From the very start we've always hugged and otherwise held each other a lot. The sitting on the lap thing we've done pretty much since we became a couple too. I can't recall even one instance throughout this where she indicated the physical intimacy stuff was smothering her.

She did verbalize what she felt about this weekend. She said "how come despite the S and pending D that we are so good together. We get along so well. Maybe we just needed the space." That was all said after a fair amount of physical stuff and propositioning. Don't think that sounds like she's put off.

I think I will read the love lines book, if only to understand what they are. Maybe my read on my wife isn't dead on.

[sage]

Ah, good. I thought I might be misreading your posts -- I'm glad to hear that I was.

The books is "The Five Love Languages" by Chapman. AND, if your w's LL is talking, you will definitely want to read "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". It will help a lot.

She did verbalize what she felt about this weekend. She said "how come despite the S and pending D that we are so good together. We get along so well. Maybe we just needed the space."

Oh, my, what a nice babystep there!

Sage

[Just_Me]

Oh, my, what a nice babystep there!

I agree. Hopefully it leads to bigger steps.

One question: After I signed the paper work I created a list of the things we needed to do....(ie close joint account, etc). One of the things is I asked for her ring. To me it was a symbol of the promise made that was now moot. She did give it too me....I MMmmmmmm'd when she did and she said "you're the one that asked for it". I could tell she really didn't want to give it to me. Now that she did all I want to do is give it back. I think I'm stuck here unless she wants to try again. What do you think?

[JRB]

I could tell she really didn't want to give it to me. Now that she did all I want to do is give it back. I think I'm stuck here unless she wants to try again. What do you think?

It is so easy, isn't it, to say something and then realize after we get what we asked for that we didn't want it.

Why not just tell her what you are thinking and give it back to her?

[sage]

Wes,

I think it's great that you've rethought the ring thing and that you want to give it back to her. Here's the caveat, though....I (two cents) think that you have to time the "give back" perfectly and make sure (a thousand times) that you're not giving it back as a renewed sense of commitment from her BUT because it is hers.

IOW, I'd hate to see the babysteps of let get squashed because she thinks the ring return is some sort of sign from you of renewed hope -- ya know?

So, think about how you could do it right...my suggestion is make it seem somewhat like an afterthought, make sure it's at the end of an evening (as she's leaving) and make abundantly clear that you "realized that I had no right to demand this from you. this is yours to keep." Avoid words like "no matter what happens" and "commitment" and "promise" and "future". I'd STILL expect her to be put off a bit and it's key to reassure her that it's ONLY about returning something that is hers w/o engaging in an R talk.

Sage

[Just_Me]

Sage,

I know what you are talking about. That's why I worried about giving it back...since I didn't want her to see it as a major pursuit.

The question...it's just rhetorical...is it her ring? To me it's a symbol of the vows that we made....til death do us part. But who's promise is it? Mine or hers? Oh well, I think it was probably largely vindictive to ask for it. It's not like I intend to give it to someone else. I'll find a decent non-threatening way to give it back. The question is why would she keep it? She isn't wearing it. She doesn't feel married anymore. I hope it wasn't too hurtful to ask. I can be such an a$$ sometimes. MMMmmmmmm

Me