This started out as a response to HP saying that her H wants her to somehow know what he wants without having to tell her. But it got way off into other issues, so I decided to start a new thread instead.
That feeling of your spouse wanting you to somehow magically know what they want is something I struggle with all the time. I know I’ve mentioned it before. W absolutely refuses to talk to me or to tell me what she wants or needs from me.
When we first went to MC (almost 15 years ago), one of my major complaints about her was that she would never talk to me about anything that could be considered “serious”. It isn’t just sex and R issues, but anything serious: money, job, buying a new house, final wishes in case of death, family problems with her aging mother (who is being physically and violently abused by her granddaughter), …, anything serious. She’s a very, very little better in some of the other areas, but she still absolutely refuses to discuss sex and R issues.
You also know that I’ve been working on myself. You know that our SL has drastically improved in the past nine months or so and that I don’t understand it. She won’t talk, so I don’t know what’s behind the changes. I’ve stumbled around in the dark, trying to figure out what to change. I’ve tried talking to her as openly and as honestly as I know how, but as always, she just clams up. I get no response at all, either verbal or non-verbal. Nothing. I’ve though that maybe she feels pressured to come up with an immediate response when she would prefer to ruminate a while, so I’ve offered her opportunities to talk later. I’ve even told her on occasion that I don’t want a response, but that I want her to think about something and get back to me. She never does.
I much prefer face to face convos, but letters sometimes help to get my thoughts organized and presented in a straightforward manner. So last week, or I guess now it’s the week before last, I decided that instead of giving sappy V-day cards, I would write letters to everyone in the family and tell them something of how I felt about them.
D13 was adopted from Romania when she was 3, and as she’s entering her teen years, she’s really beginning to struggle with who she is and where she came from. She’s wondering about her biological family and what they tell me are normal feelings of having been unwanted. She’s even asked why her mother didn’t want her. (The truth is that her mother used the orphanage system as alternative birth control and had at least four other kids by four other men somewhere in the system – but we would NEVER tell her that.) Those of you who have been here long enough to have heard my whole story have also heard me mention that W isn’t really the motherly type. It’s so bad with D13 that she’s been asking my mother if W loves her. So I wrote her a letter telling her some of how we got her, acknowledging some of the mistakes we’ve made, and assuring her that we love her. She showed the letter to D17, D19, and my mother, and now has it framed in her room.
D17 commented on her letter, and D19 (the college girl from Moldova now working on her third year with us) wrote me a long email thanking me for her letter and telling me how much she loves us.
The letter to W was somewhat longer and more intimate than the ones for the girls. There was nothing in it that she hadn’t heard before, but I did mention some of the bad stuff. I told her how badly the lack of sex had hurt me over the years. I told her how I felt rejected, not only as a man, but as a person. But it wasn’t a bad letter. I only mentioned the bad things as a contrast to the way things are now. I told her how much better things are, how my attitudes have changed, and how much I’ve appreciated the increase in our SL. I tried to explain what sex means to me and how it makes me feel to ML with her. I told her how much I love her. I quoted some of Proverbs 31 and told her that I think of her as that kind of woman. I told her that I knew that I hadn’t been the ideal H, but that I wanted to be. I asked her again to help me with that.
Predictably enough, I’ve gotten no response. I haven’t even gotten any acknowledgement that she read it. No comments. No actions. No nothing. I know that she had some response/reaction to what I wrote. She’s sad about the wasted years, she’s angry that I brought up the past, she’s happy about the current sitch, she’s unhappy with the realization that sex really does improve the R, … I don’t know,… something. After a couple of days, she said that the girls had showed her their letters. I said, “I hope you didn’t show them yours”, and she told me that she had put it away where they wouldn’t see it. That was the first (and last) acknowledgement that she had even gotten a letter, so I was hoping that maybe she would say something about it. But that was not to be.
So what’s happening here? Does she know that her lack of response drives me crazy? Does she realize that I start questioning everything? That I wonder if I was wrong to write the letter? That I wonder if maybe she just doesn’t care enough to respond? Is this passive/aggressive control?
I don’t want it to sound like I’m viewing this as a big chess game, because I’m not. I’m not looking to win here. I’ve even reached a point where I don’t even want more sex than she’s willing to give, so it’s not like I’m trying to work out some grand strategy to get her all worked up so she’ll f*ck my brains out. What I want is no-secrets, open communication between us. How do you do that when one partner won’t communicate?
I don't know what to say. My H will sometimes talk and talk and sometimes there is total radio silence. Sometimes he will comment on a letter, card or email and sometimes he won't. You have let enough time go by for her to comment. Maybe you could just ask her if she has any thoughts on what you said in the letter. Since it isn't a chess game then you don't have to follow the unspoken rule of waiting for her to make a move.
I've written my W many letters during our 8 month S. Apologies, poems, reminders of good times. The early ones violated DB/DR principles big time. She also doesn't react, at least outwardly. The letters felt to me (later) like they would be seen as pursuit and pressure. I eventually stopped writing them, relying quietly on actions instead. But no progress with that approach either, as yet.
wildebube, Hi. Let me begin by commending your thoughtfulness. Writing notes to your family is an act of love and time, what a precious keepsake. Children especially need to know the unconditional love of their parents and I'm certain your D's recognize the effort as well. That says a lot. Truly.
Quote: So what’s happening here? Does she know that her lack of response drives me crazy? Does she realize that I start questioning everything? That I wonder if I was wrong to write the letter? That I wonder if maybe she just doesn’t care enough to respond? Is this passive/aggressive control?
Do you think that perhaps your W just avoids. You gave so many examples, on different levels, of her avoidance to get, well, personal. Open up and allow someone in. Does she have past baggage (for lack of a better word picture) to which she has built a wall, either unwilling or unable to allow someone in? You mentioned your mother, indicating a good sturdy relationship, what of her and her family, is it as sturdy or is she practicing what she was taught as a child?
It's my (simple-minded) opinion that you really need to determine if she's equipped to reach out and offer the love and partnership you desire or if she's waiting for someone to lovingly help her. Maybe she's grasping in the dark to break down the wall.
My biggest challenge on posting is that I cannot meet you guys, I LOVE to listen, when you listen you hear so much, not just what the words are, but pictures of the lives behind the words. And it takes me a while to read and think and read replies to try to "get" the person - so I apologize if I'm way off base here.
Re-reading my reply I realize it sounds like a bunch of whoey-balowy and you're probably asking, yeah I know this, but do you actually have a suggestion. And to this I say yes, What about - and I'm going wayyyyyy simple here, to settle your mind about how important she takes your notes/letters, etc., Write a short lil' note on a pretty card/stationary inviting her to dinner/brunch, someplace where you guys can chat - can even be your backyard if you think the mood will be right. Someplace you kow she enjoys but that is quiet and kind of romantic. Don't mention it to her unless she asks you about it and just show up at the appointed time. Do you think you could find a place - I'm picturing candles, soft music (hey, I'm a girl okay be it 38, but still a girl) and then discuss the contents of your V-day letter to her. Ask her then her thoughts, etc., in a setting without interruptions of the day, someplace the restraints of her heart might be off-guard.
The posters here are great and I know you'll find something you'll feel comfortable with. Best of luck to you and your family.
I know that I sometimes come across as being defeatist, but I sometimes feel that way. You see, we've been married for over 29 years and many times I really do feel like I've tried everything. I've tried waiting. It doesn't work. She won't ever respond.
W and I talk a lot. We have excellent communication about day-to-day mundane things. We can and do talk about all kinds of things. The radio silence only comes up with something I would call serious. In fact, upon further reflection, it seems like she clams up when it comes to change. I’ve mentioned money, sex, moving, job changes, and maybe a couple of other things, but I’ve just now noticed that those aren’t really specific enough.
We’ve talked about money. We don’t have a lot of problem talking about money. Where we have a problem is discussing any changes we need to make in our fiscal behavior. We talked about money when we couldn’t sell our old house and were hemorrhaging savings. What she wouldn’t talk about was what to do about it. My feeling was that anything we did would affect both of us and that we should discuss it before doing anything. She would talk about the problem, but wouldn’t talk about potential solutions. Nothing I tried evoked any response.
Moving was another similar issue. She said that she wanted to move out into the country, but that was as far as it went. She wouldn’t discuss the map of how to get there from here. My recent job offer was the same: she would discuss the pros and cons of changing jobs versus staying where I am, but she wouldn’t offer any opinions or feelings about what I should do. She would readily talk about the additional 40K in salary, or the benefits, or the exponential increase in stress, or the longer commute, or the relative job security. But when it came down to weighing those things and deciding whether to take the job or not, I got not a peep.
Now that I think about it, it’s always been that way. She may academically discuss the fact that we need a new car, but she won’t discuss what kind of car, what price range, what features, etc. I feel like these are important things for us to talk about because she’s the one that always gets the new car. We’re also not made of money – a more expensive car may mean that we have to give up something else. That affects all of us. She’ll talk about wanting to go back and finish college, but it’s really hard to pin her down on the when, where, what major, how are we going to pay for it, and things like that. We’ve discussed moving away from Texas to somewhere a little cooler. We both hate Texas summers and would willingly trade off some of our nice winters for more tolerable summers. But when it goes beyond general climatic likes and dislikes, she clams up. Should I start looking for a job somewhere else? Where would you like to go? How much cold are you willing to accept? No answers.
I’m running low on examples here, but the point is that she’ll talk about any subject but sex. Where we run into problems is trying to discuss changes. And that has me wondering about sex too. Is sex really a different subject unto itself, or is sex just something else where she sees a need for change?
I don’t know. I’ve spent nearly thirty years trying to get her to talk. I’ve tried pestering her. I’ve tried begging. I’ve tried restating the questions in slightly different terms. I’ve tried asking here to respond at some later date after she’s had time to think about the question(s). I’ve tried just dropping the subject in the hopes that she’ll see the need to discuss it and will bring it up herself. I’ve tried mentioning something periodically to let her know that I still see it as an issue but am refraining from pushing her. I’ve tried various lengths of waiting periods. In most things, jobs, cars, houses, etc., I end up making a decision with no input from her. But in some areas (sex), I can’t do anything without her cooperation.
The V-day letter thing isn’t really a problem we need to discuss. It doesn’t require any change either. It’s just that things have gotten so much better between us this past year that I felt compelled to tell her how much I love her and how much things have changed for me. I probably set myself up for this by thinking that with all the improvements in the R, she would respond in kind by saying, “ILY too”, or “I’m glad you’re so happy”. At this point, I would even take, “I can’t believe that you’re such an arrogant pr!ck that you think things are better just because YOU are happier.” But the total lack of response has just yanked the rug out from under my feet. Again.
I hear you. I understand being married to someone who "hides". Your W is protecting herself - From who? From what? I don't know. There is some pain inside her that keeps her from letting you close. I realize that knowing this doesn't help. Was it something you did or said in the past. Maybe. Was it something she grew up with? Probably. I'm not sure I have any advice here.
Perhpas you should see a C for yourself. It must be (it is) hard to live in a situation in which you continually make yourself vulnerable and your spouse chooses not to reciprocate. Make sure that you do some things that make you feel good - a hobby, a friendship, counseling etc...
Good for you for letting everyone know how you feel. So many of us never have the chance to hear those things from our parents or partners.
The fact that she won't discuss anything concerning "change" makes me think that what she is avoiding is "responsibility". It's easier for her to let you make all the decisions because then you are the one who can be blamed if things don't go well. I get this from my H sometimes. For instance, he didn't want to go house shopping with me so now it's my fault when things go wrong with the house.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
That's my take on it as well. I've never tried to blame her if something went wrong, but I still get the feeling that she avoids decisions in order to avoid blame. No evidence, just gut.
WB, I think your wife won't talk because she knows she doesn't have to.
Unless you are willing to force whatever issue you are wanting her input about, she is quite happy to clam up--it WORKS FOR HER.
In order to break out of this rut, you will have to do something different. If you've always accepted her silence then she has no reason to ever answer, right?
What if you were to say to her, "I'd like to hear your thoughts about the letter I wrote you." She will stonewall, and then you can mentally say to yourself, Ok it's Tuesday. I will ask her again on Saturday. Then do that and she will stonewall again. You can make a date to ask her again. She'll get the picture and eventually get mad.
At that point, you can say (calmly and kindly): "Wife, all I've ever wanted is an answer from you when I put my heart on the line. From this day forward, I will keep asking in the hopes that you will answer. It is not my wish to make you mad but I'm no longer willing to pretend that I'm ok with the silence."
You will have to allow her to get mad and mentally come to grips with the fact that she can't 'get away' with it any longer.
Right now, you are an accomplice in her immaturity.
wildebube wrote: ------------- I don’t know. I’ve spent nearly thirty years trying to get her to talk. -------------
Instead of asking your W what she thinks, write what you think on paper, and instruct her to place a number by each item you write about. 1=stromgly disagree, 2=disagree, 3=does not matter, 4=agree, 5=strongly agree.
You should not have to do this but it is a way to comunicate with nonverbal people. It will not give you all of the information you need, but it's a start, an ice breaker.
