Continuing Subject - Help for Nicegal

[karen1]

Barney,

I am not offended and I do not think it is wrong to have a clear boundary around physical violence. I think it is imperative for the two of you to move forward.

I was suggesting that you find a place to get some solace, help, things thought through. I mean, we on this BB are good virtual pals and all but this is 17 years of serious issues - you NEED some support for yourself. Whether NG changes in the necessary ways or not you need some things for you.

Karen

[Greeneyedlass]

Barney,

I don't think you offended anyone...it was just very apparant that you were really upset. It almost sounded as though you and NG were in a discussion, right at that moment. It probably just really hit home with many of us.

You do have a right to your boundaries and putting a boundary on physical violence is a pretty good choice in my book. I'm glad you gave props to NiceGal too for the work that she's done on that front Recognizing improvements such as that and validating them are very important when it comes to working towards real progress.

((((Barney & Nicegal))))

GEL

[barneyfife]

GEL and karen,

Thanks. But I'm really not upset. In fact, I passed up getting upset at several things posted.

I think we are in a discussion. I tried to "use code" in originally stating my need re: the temper issue and using the "ultimate dealbreaker" phrase. My meaning was obviously lost in doing so.

It is such an issue with me that to respond to any of the other questions asked would put them on par with this one. This one is the key upon which respect, happiness, a peaceful home, and sex stand. If we never make the sex work, I would still require this. It is ultimately the only way that NG and I can have a happy M.

If the situation were reversed, I would expect nothing less than NG to make the same demand.

[Greeneyedlass]

Barney,

I would agree with you, there is NO place for physical violence in a marriage from either party. I believe I set that boundary with my H a long time ago, before we married (as I had been in an abusive R previously). I explained no one will ever again get the chance to hit me twice.

I'm sure there is much that could be said between you and NG on this BB that would go right past some of us

Kudos to both of you participating on this BB
GEL

[mandksdad]

Dear Barney,

I just wanted to thank you for what I perceive to be your total honesty. I know that the pain I feel in my heart as a result of my W's rejections and anger is very deep. Fortunately, we were able end any physical confrontations and shouting many years ago, but not before I took a stand. My W still feels that it is acceptable for her to use days-long silence as a weapon.

I'm thinking about you; hopefully God will hear my thoughts.

Paul

[nicegal]

Dear Nop,

I'm writing to you because right now I cannot write to B. I have endeavored to try and mend this. Thank you and everyone else here for your help.

I have not brought all the issues into this because as far as I was concered they were in the past.

But, as B stated so and has expressed that there is possibly a "last day" as far as he is concerned in this marriage. Ok, what do I have to lose.

Then after B apologizes to Karen..to Karen....he apologized for offending Karen..for what he said to and about me......why? It was just too much.

Let's see, Nop, why exactly do I escalate? Do you think that maybe B pushes all the right buttons to see if Miss Patient can blow? Then the focus will be on the issue that she blew and not the R issues that we have.

Yes, I have hit B...I was very angry with him. It was no excuse for that behavior. That is not me. I have decided that I will not get into any conversation with him again that escalates me to that point. I did that sometime ago. I just leave the room.

Would B describe my behavior in December as a screaming fit tirade? It is unclear. Sounds like it. I'd like clarification as to what is losing the temper vs. the other.

As far as physical violence being a drawing line. Should I have left B when he broke my glasses in his hand? Should I have left B when he pushed me to the ground and I sprained my ankle? Should I have left B. when he pushed me and I twisted my knee? Should I have left B when he shoved me many times? Should I have left B when I discovered that he not only was having an internet affair he was calling women on the phone and talking to them for hours?

B no longer is physical with me. It is over.
The internet and phone calling stuff is over.

Should B have left me when I hit him? Should B have left me when I told him that I hated him (how horrible)? Should B have left me when I yelled at him?

I'd sure want forgiveness and patience with me. Thus, I have tried, however lame it has been to be so with B.

I understand completely that it is wrong to blame B for all his stuff when I have my own to deal with. Who am I not to forgive B for his stuff when I can look in the mirror and have my own. When I reach perfection then I'll have the right to sit in judgement and point out one by one his faults...like I have none.

I am sorry for B pain. But it has been a 2 way street. The dance we have both played has made this step. I have endeavored to fix me and stop pointing the finger...because of my integrity issues.

Neither B or I is perfect. Neither is more to blame than the other. We are both to blame. I am willing to accept my blame. I am willing to lay out what I have done wrong, look it in the face, name it, change it, and move forward.

I don't think that B is ready for that and from this post today...

Nicegal

[NOPkins]

Nicegal and barney.

This is a quick post to both of you. I will have more to say that I think fits in with your situation later.

It is entirely possible for you two to work this out. You have to keep talking, but there simply MUST be RESPECT.

At some point in time, the two of you are going to decide to put your blame and hurt to bed. If you don't, you will beat each other to a bloody pulp, and in the end, you will still blame each other and you will both still be wrong.

How long on the blame?

How long before you feel better?

What is the goal of the blame? When do you win? How will you know when you have won?

If either of you think this situation is unique, or not resolvable then you are wrong. It does take BOTH of you to resolve the issues, and BOTH of you have issues to resolve. Both are at fault. Both share blame.

So, what are your intentions?

All the best,
-NOPkins-

[barneyfife]

NG,

I have done many things throughout our M that hurt you. Too many. I have provided you ample reasons and opportunities to leave me. Allow me to once again apologize for all the things you listed and for those you didn't.

I was wrong to ever push back or retaliate against you physically in any form. I should have been bigger than that. I should have shown restraint regardless of the circumstance. I acted in a selfish, childlike, and disrespectful manner. Please forgive me.

I realized that I was escalating and that it would lead to real trouble. For that reason, I dealt with my emotions and changed my manner of response. I can confidently say that I will NEVER respond physically to you when in anger ever again.

You're going to have to help me understand why you're not willing to do the same. That's the only conclusion I can come to from your posts.

It hurts me terribly to see (what I perceive to be) the "it's not that bad" explanation. I understand that you don't want to be singled out as the "bad guy" or that your previous outbursts are worse than my behavior. I'm not trying to do that at all.

Everyone here (including you) pushed for me to say what you could do to help improve our M. I did. I communicated it as directly as possible. It was pointed out numerous times that I mixed a lot of anger with it, and for that, I apologize.

For all the rough years we've experienced and terrible things we've done to each other, I still love you and am committed to our M. But I can't alter my position on this and still respect myself.

I hope you understand what I'm saying.

And, for the record, I don't think NOP helped at all by his comment on me feeling better by saying it or implying that I've hurt my M by setting a very important boundary for me.

[NOPkins]

barney wrote:
----------------
And, for the record, I don't think NOP helped at all by his comment on me feeling better by saying it or implying that I've hurt my M by setting a very important boundary for me.
----------------

You didn't set a real boundary. Your post was coated in spite and resentment.

In fact, you publicly omitted your very own involvement in the referenced event. Bad form.

I have one last question for you. The reason for the question will be obvious to you. Think about it.

When do you plan to make love to your wife again? One week, two? When, and I don't mean when as in keyed to an event.

-NOPkins-

[MrsNOP]

Should I have left B when I discovered that he not only was having an internet affair he was calling women on the phone and talking to them for hours?

Okay, this really does explain a few things. NOP and I have both been wondering why your & Barney's interactions were so off-kilter. There are some prominent things that show up in relationships where a third party has entered in. Here are some things that red-flag:

The rewriting of marital history. One of the first things that happens when an ongoing (as opposed to a one-night stand) emotional or physical affair has occurred is the extrapolating backward negative judgement of the spouse. It is expressed as:

I never loved you.
I love you but I'm not in love with you.
We were never meant to be.
I've never been happy with you.
You've never treated me the way I deserve to be treated.
Our marriage has always sucked.
Our sexlife has always sucked.

While all of these things can certainly be true, in the case of rewritten history the betrayed spouse knows, remembers and/or has mementos of the wayward spouse's past acknowledgement of the love, good times, good sex, etc.

Difficulty in seeing and acknowledging the improvements and/or efforts being made by the betrayed spouse.

A deeper emotional detachment that cannot seem to be bridged by the betrayed spouse.

An ongoing refusal to have sex with betrayed spouse - doing so is often seen as being "unfaithful" to the other person.

A resistance to working on the marriage relationship.

There's more, but you can get the gist.

NOP and I had a long-term ssm as well as a relationship that was starved in several ways. We both had several years of hurt, anger & resentment to work through. We started working toward each other (I can't really call it actively starting to work on the problem at that time) several years ago. We moved closer, failed, tried again, moved closer, blew up, vented, cried, cussed, depressed, consider giving up, worried about being permanently damaged or scarred, poured out our hearts to each other, stomped off, threw food (okay, just me on this one), wanted desperately to run away, wanted some peace and calm, plodded on, sometimes strong and confident, sometimes weak and fearful, moved closer, tripped up, failed, picked up and tried again.

We both made efforts to accept each other's efforts, sexually & relationally. There was never a sense that one or the other of us had to grovel. Apologize, yes. Repent, yes. Empathize, yes. But there was no push to prove that one of us was more guilty than the other, nor was there a sense that one of us was sitting in the catbird's seat watching and waiting for the other to make all the amends before we would engage. I guess what I am trying to convey is that we were *both* fumbling toward each other.

I've had this sense of a real imbalance in your & Barney's interaction. I know that failed promises impact willingness to try again. And anger, either simmering or exploding impedes progress.

NOP never refused my initiations for sex except for a handful of times when we had had a bad day together with some unresolved issues/emotions. This was during the time when I was showing up for duty sex in the hopes that things would eventually get better for both of us. So, it's not like I was blowing his socks off sexually. But there was patience from him for my meager attempts.

In pondering why you were being turned down when attempting to intiate, the only reasons I could come up with were:

He no longer loves her.
He's trying to "teach her a lesson".
He would prefer to hold on to his resentment.
He's no longer horny.
There's someone else.

Continuing to make love to someone, keeping silent while believing that it is a mercy f*ck - and telling that to your partner *afterward* is a possible indication of:
An offbalance sense of one's own entitlement.
A lack of integrity.
A lack of love.
A desire to hurt & degrade.
There's someone else to whom you are being compared.

None of these may be accurate. It may be that Barney has been so affected by the past that he cannot get over it without you making sacrifices and eating hurts that you may find impossible to do long-term.

Wishing the best for both of you.

MrsNOP -