Needed a new thread, and I think subject lines suck. I can never think of good ones.
We had the hockey issue come up again tonight. H calls and says he can pick up S11 from practice (he got done at 8:15 tonight). I asked him what time he would be there because S9 wanted to go in and hang out at the arena while his bro practiced (kids have been out of school since last Tuesday due to weather... everybody has cabin fever). I wanted to know what time he'd be there because I didn't want to leave S9 running around with no parent, or I'd stay at hockey practice, in which case, H didn't need to pick up son.
H says he'd be there at 7. I said, are you sure? He said, have S9 call me to make sure I am. I said, no, decide if you are going to be there. You are the adult. S9 doesn't need to be calling you to remind you of that. H says he'll be there by 7.
I drop the kids off at 6:40. I tell S9 to call me if H is not there by 7. I got home. I get a call from S9 at 7:10 saying H is not there and he wants me to come back in and get him. So I do. I didn't call H because I thought surely he would be there by the time I got there and I'd just explain it then. Get there, no H. S9 and I leave at 7:25.
I get a call at 7:35 from H wondering where S9 is. He asks, 'why didn't you call me and tell me you had S9? Why didn't he call me?'
ME: I had intended on calling you, I just walked in the door. Had you been where you said you were going to be at the time you said you'd be there, we wouldn't have an issue. DO NOT take issue with S9 for not calling. It wasn't HIS job.
H comes home at 8:30ish with S11 and says sorry to S9. After H eats dinner, we have a lovely little chat, oh, say about 9ish that he talk with the Prez today about his position, tells the Prez he'd like to be a candidate for the job, and wants to know if he doesn't get the job, will he have his old job to go back to? Prez says he's doing great, loves to hear H is interested in job, glad to know he will be applying (really? news to me...) and yes, if he doesn't get it, he has a job, not to worry. If H does get job, he will be looking for a 3 to 5 year commitment.
ME: "oh, so you are applying? did you tell the Prez we had yet to discuss that?
H: "no, I didn't say that to him."
Long pause.
ME: "So let me get this staight. Two years ago, you said you would be retired from X Place (and we'd go do something else... was working too much, wanted to take it easier)... by last June. This job comes up and you say, "I am only going to do this for a year." Now we are potentially looking at a 3 to 5 year commitment.
H: "Yeah?"
Long pause.
ME: "You now get home on average 7:30 - 8 p.m. every night. Seems to me you are enjoying your work life way more than your home life."
HIM: "That's not true! I'd much rather be here. There is just a lot of responsibility with this job."
ME: "You'd much rather be here? Really? Why should I believe that? Your actions say you'd much rather be at work than anywhere else. Everything, everything comes second to the job."
HIM: "There is a lot of stuff going on right now and you know that...
ME: "I know of little else."
HIM: "It's a great challenge for me, intellectually stimulating... it's a challenge for me to see if I can do it"
ME: "You didn't answer my question. You tell me you would much rather be home, yet your work hours and your actions say differently. The Prez says you have a job to go back to, yet you say you are going to apply for this job. I'll ask again. Why should I believe you when you say that you would much rather be at home than anywhere else, when clearly that is not the case?"
HIM: "Why don't you just come out and say whatever it is you are wanting to say."
ME: "I have. Twice now. I will ask it one more time. Why should I believe you when you say that you would much rather be at home than anywhere else, when clearly that is not the case?"
Long pause. He finally looks at me.
Him: "What do you want me to say?"
That took the wind right outta me. I get up to leave the room.
HIM: "Oh, yeah, like you'd want me here more anyway."
ME: "How would you know? That is such a friggin' cop out. I'm sorry you've chosen to get defensive rather than address the issue with me."
I had to get the kids moving for bed, H picks up a catalog and starts reading... do the teeth brushing and the tuck ins, and now its time for H to go to bed. Has to be up early, you know. It's 10:10 p.m.
ME: "So you are going to bed now?"
HIM: "Yeah."
ME: "Okay then, you have a great night."
HIM: Where are you going?
ME: "I'm going downstairs to read. I'm not tired."
And that. Was that.
It occurred to me that I am in the same boat a lot of you folks are in. My spouse is in complete denial (or is completely uninterested in the fact) that there is a problem in our R. He just wants more sex.
And I, like most of you, have been turning cartwheels to get my spouse to notice.
The definition of insanity is doing the same behavior repeatedly, yet expecting different results. I don't know about all of you, but my head has had all it can take from banging it against a wall that refuses to budge.
I'm not heading to D-Court, in case any of you might think that. I don't know what to think or do, actually. There isn't much I can do, except take care of me. And the kids. And the dog. And the cat.
First I will say I'm sorry to hear you frustrated again Hope its a good book
I would also like to compliment you on your memory You seem to be able to puke up a conversation verbatim If I could do that I would have too many enemies because I'd recall each ill-fated gesture/action they've made.
Here's one I wrote last Spring. You can post it in large print on the fridge and yellow highlight your favorites. If you post on BB board at H's office he won't be able to get away from it because the women WILL spread it around.
Enjoy and Good Luck
She Wants a Man
Being a man is trusting her angel Learn to avoid the insecurities you feel
Being a man is accepting her devil Nuture the horns and stroke the tail
Being a man is getting to know her Try to remember it all completely
Being a man sees only a goddess Know how to worship her beautiful blessings
Being a man is making her laugh when shes happy grieve with her when she cries
Being a man is knowing it’s the thought that counts but it’s the actions that matter
Being a man is respecting who she is be someone she will respect
Being a man is living the role BE THE MAN WHEN SHE WANTS A MAN
I wish, damn, I really wish, after all the great advice you've given us, that I could give some here, but I don't know what to say. I understand the feeling of not knowing what to do all too well.
What if you did start making 'exit noises', would that 'wake' H up??
Maybe we should just have a large pity party, feel sorry for ourselves for a while until we get sick of that and decide what to do.
Hey, I've still got that sauna downstairs, and there's lots of beer in the cooler (left over from a party this summer, neither of us really drink it much, so you all are welcome to take some!) I suspect too that it's warmer here, and less snow than what a lot of you guys have right now, so come on over
Quote: HIM: "There is a lot of stuff going on right now and you know that...
ME: "I know of little else."
Jeeze, you served him a double shot of Corri with that one, darlin'. His failing to consult with you about this job and the accompanying 3-5 year commitment must leave a really bad taste in your mouth. Kind of like unwanted and unexpected semen.
Yep, he needs to show you a buttload of respect and seems unable to do so. Are you doing anything that would warrant this? Maybe he's just a pig (ask Ms.H-Dog about that one, and I'll bet she'd confirm that for you). He's definitely being piggy.
So how do you deal with a pig? I suppose you can keep on feeding it until it gets nice and plump. Then take it to market and sell it for pork. Or, you can train it to sniff out truffles.
Hairdog, who's presenting vague analogies this a.m. in hopes he'll sound wise. Mu. Oink.
I’m not sure that I can say this in a way that you’ll understand it, but as a man, I think your H is telling you the truth. When he tells you that he would much rather be home than at work, he’s telling the truth. When you tell him that you don’t believe him, he’s left without a defense. What could he have said that would have made you believe him?
Now for the hard part: the explanation. I don’t know much about you really. I don’t know how old you are, how old your H is, what your upbringing was like, or anything like that. What I do know is something about myself. I don’t mean to blame my problems and issues completely on my FOO, but my FOO does have a lot to do with it. I was raised in a very traditional, Ozzie and Harriet type of family where the husband was the provider and the wife was the homemaker. With that kind of upbringing, there are some things just built into who I am.
I think we got into this discussion once before when I was saying that I would never divorce because I simply didn’t believe in it. I said that I valued duty, honor, fidelity and perseverance, and that I had made a vow that included “for worse” and that I intended to keep that vow. It was/is important to who I am. I said that I felt responsible to and for W. I can’t remember if it was you or not, but there was some question at the time about whether that was an excuse, a cop-out, something to hide behind, or whether it was really me. Well, it’s really me.
Another similar issue is the relationship between a man and his job. I feel, and sometimes act, just like your H. It’s something that I struggle with on a regular basis. For many men, myself included, their job is a lot more than just their job. There are a lot of self-esteem and duty/responsibility/provider issues tied up in it. I know how you hate generalizations, but this is something that’s a uniquely man thing. Just as women (generally) have a nesting instinct, men have a working instinct. Being successful at what we do and providing well for our families is an important part of being “a man”.
In his view, he really wants to spend more time at home. But he needs to be successful. He needs to be a good provider. There is work that must be done, and he needs to be the stand-up guy who can be counted on to get the job done. It happens to me. And my W gets just as irritated as you obviously have. We have convos like this:
Mrs.WB (when I come in at 21:00): Oh, what do you know? You decided to grace us with your presence.
WB: Sorry, I got hung up trying to finish X.
Mrs.WB: It couldn’t wait until tomorrow?
WB: No. I’ve been tied up in so many meetings lately that I’ve gotten way behind on everything.
Mrs.WB: Why can’t co-worker do it? Why do you always have to be the one to go in early and stay late?
WB: Come on…, do you really think that co-worker could do it?
Mrs.WB: Well, no. But they can’t keep working you like this. Etc.
I don’t know if I can make you understand, but I’ve never actually made her understand. They’re not working me that hard; I’m working me that hard. It’s a choice I make because the work HAS to get done. I would much prefer to come home, but there is work that has to get done and I’m the one who has to do it. I’m good at what I do. My boss knows that when he assigns a job to WB, that job will get done – correctly and on time. That makes me successful. I get promotions. I get raises.
It doesn’t mean that I value my job more than I value my family. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. By being good at my job, I’m better able to be a good husband, a good father, a good “man”. I can be a better provider for them. When they have another RIF, I’ll have job security. I’m the go-to guy who can be counted on to get the job done. When I get a raise or a promotion, that puts me in a better position to provide for my family, both now and in the future.
I hope this doesn’t come off as sexist, but there’s been some recent discussion about the bond between a mother and her children. So tell me, as a mother, would you rather spend quality time playing with your small children, or wash the dishes, do the laundry, and clean the bathrooms? So why do you take time from your kids to do the dishes and the laundry and clean the bathrooms? Easy. Because it has to be done. Would you rather spend time with your teenagers playing board games, talking about the things going on in their lives, watching TV together – or would you rather spend your time nagging them to clean their rooms and do their homework while you continue with the cooking, laundry, and bathrooms? Sadly, their rooms need cleaning, their homework needs to be done, if nobody cooks you’ll all starve, the laundry won’t do itself, and the bathrooms can become a health hazard. The teenagers don’t have the initiative to do any of those things by themselves – so you do it.
You may not see those things as being the same as your H’s job, but I’ll bet he does. His work is something that he has to do. He would prefer to be at home, but work is something that simply must be done. Given the choice, he would be at home. But in order to be a good husband and father, he needs to be a good provider. And in order to be a good provider, he needs to be successful at work. And paradoxical though it may sound, he sometimes has to sacrifice his family in order to be a good provider for his family.
I know that this is long and rambling – but as you can tell, this is something that hits me right where I live. I hope this helps.
WB, This post applies to me as well. I just hope that whomever is "sacrificing" their family for their job does so at their OWN RISK. They need to know exactly what they are sacrificing--in Corri's case, her husband is sacrificing a peaceful and fulfilling home life in order to both provide for his family and stroke his own ego.
Corri, love, I wish I was there with ya. I think that Corri Night is coming up soon. I cannot believe that he would mentally make up his mind about the position without so much as a how do you do to his wife. I understand that he has to be company man to the Prez and couldn't wuss out and say, I have to run it by my Big Boss first, Mr President...with a wimpy smile...but my gosh, he can certainly go home and present to YOU as if he gives a hoot what your input is. This is a huge decision and not one that solely affects him.
I agree with you (of course!) that his actions are not matching his words. If he truly valued his home life over his work life, he would at least be consulting you and going over the pros and cons of this position as it relates to your family.
The ONLY thing I can think of is that he wanted and needed your WOA about being considered for the job and THEN he planned on going over the pros and cons.
I have much compassion for you because the way your H is acting is similar to how I have treated my family. By making the accusation,
Quote: ME: "You now get home on average 7:30 - 8 p.m. every night. Seems to me you are enjoying your work life way more than your home life."
you are putting your H on the defensive. FWIW, I think you are correct and just smashed him in the head with a 2X4. Maybe you need to present it to him in a way that tells him how his behavior affects you, rather than presenting your hypotheses about his motives:
Quote: You spend so much time at work, we feel abandoned (it's OK to represent your kids here IMO).
You've made a decision about your career that affects all of us, but you didn't consult with me first.
Other than that, you brought up the issue that needed to be said, and I salute your courage for wielding the lumber.
Men are frequently brought up to slay the dragon and rescue the fair maiden. We mistakenly think that all we need to do to get the maiden is to slay the dragon. It sometimes takes a 2X4 in the head for men like your H (and me and Wildebube) to learn that slaying the dragon and winning the maiden are two separate and somewhat independent activities, and that we need to balance the two activities in order to succeed at both. And we are loathe to admit, even to ourselves, that slaying dragons is easier and more fun than winning the affections of our fair maidens, but that winning the fair maiden is ultimately more rewarding.
SM
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
First off I think you have to decide what was it you were actually mad at...the fact that he made the decision to go for a job that would lend to a 3-5 yr commitment before discussing it with you OR the fact that his claim that he'd rather be home than at work doesn't add up to what you perceive?
You've got to pick the more important and address that one first.
Not sticking up for your h...it was wrong of him to make that decision (which will obviously effect you) without input from you.
Oh wideblue...I hate to do it but I have to comment on your thoughts for they are the thoughts that lead to trouble.
Though I understand the "ozzie and harriet" concept it just doesn't jive.
Quote: It doesn’t mean that I value my job more than I value my family. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. By being good at my job, I’m better able to be a good husband, a good father, a good “man”.
oh dear! Sure being good at your job can do those things but not when being good at your job means you've got time for little else. Financial security is a wonderful thing but when it's there the other things don't just get taken care of by default. It is one thing to work hard to provide as a means of being a good husband but it's another to claim that your a good husband by providing...especially if in order to provide you are removed from the family.
Quote: I hope this doesn’t come off as sexist, but there’s been some recent discussion about the bond between a mother and her children. So tell me, as a mother, would you rather spend quality time playing with your small children, or wash the dishes, do the laundry, and clean the bathrooms? So why do you take time from your kids to do the dishes and the laundry and clean the bathrooms? Easy. Because it has to be done. Would you rather spend time with your teenagers playing board games, talking about the things going on in their lives, watching TV together – or would you rather spend your time nagging them to clean their rooms and do their homework while you continue with the cooking, laundry, and bathrooms? Sadly, their rooms need cleaning, their homework needs to be done, if nobody cooks you’ll all starve, the laundry won’t do itself, and the bathrooms can become a health hazard. The teenagers don’t have the initiative to do any of those things by themselves – so you do it.
Not sexist at all just a bit ignorant. If things need doing I'll do them but not at the expense of my childrens emotional or physical needs. I'll find the time to do the things that need doing AFTER the more imporant things. I'd rather happy healthy children than a sparkling house full of gormet eating ones. (now that doesn't mean we eat junk we just find another way to eat healthy home cook meals without needing to be removed from those I cook them for. The house may not sparkle but it's clean and besides I've heard that keeping your house too clean isn't all that good for the imune system anyway )
What it comes down to is BALANCE! being a good husband is more than paying the bills and cutting the lawn just like being a good wife is more than cleaning, cooking and doing the laundry.
I'm obviously letting a bit of my own sit shine through here but it's clear I'm not the only one living in this false reality.
I do feel he has to figure out his priorities for himself and that you need to go into "self-care" mode. Once again, I am amazed how calm you stay and I know you will get your thoughts across to him in Corri style. The rest is up to him.
WB, your post helps me to understand what work may mean to a man, but there has to be enough of a feeling that "we're all in it together."
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