Sat PM, W and I had a milestone moment where we collectively generated enough sexual energy through touching and kissing that I provoked my W to ask for sex.
Last night, we were sitting in the same spot and had the same drinks (hot chocolate with butterscotch liquor and whipped cream). I started getting frisky again and W clearly wasn't. I asked her "how is it that you are feeling different tonight?" followed by a lengthy discussion. The actual content of the conversation was pointless.
So today, I told my C about this and she kicked my ass for asking my W that. And I realized that she's completely right. There is absolutely no point in trying to analyze, dissect etc. your spouse because according to Schnarch, my C and the gods of common sense, assuming a role where we "predict" outcomes in another living person and adjust our behavior accordingly is simply "fusion". My W was irritated by the questioning because she felt I was trying to learn how to "program" her.
The C put it eloquently by saying..."don't figure her out...figure yourself out. Instead of asking why she seems distant, tell her that you are feeling close...you cheapen the experience when you make it about them and not yourself."
So, my 2 cents of the day is this.
- Stop wasting time and energy trying to learn what buttons to push. - Never assume anything about a person's mood...if you are horny, communicate it. - While you shouldn't ask your spouse what makes them tick, don't indulge them either. - Don't voluntarily try to teach them the formula for your horniness (even saying I get horny every 3 days). - Live in the moment, communicate from *you*, and ask for what you want regardless of the historical outcome.
Dave (who loves to preach things that seem so easy on paper).
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Very good points. The trick is getting past the fusion enough to "risk" oneself without regard as to the potential response. Trying to gage the other person is nothing more than a futile self protective measurse.
Case in point: Yesterday H decided to hang a couple of new paintings and asked where I wanted them hung. I said, "Well you aren't going to like it." (I "knew" that H would be unhappy because he hates change and we needed to move some other pictures). I told him where I thought they should go and he said "Why would you assume that I would be unhappy?" I said, "because you aren't fond of change" and he said, "that's true". My assumptions darn near got me in trouble there. And that is something that isn't as remotely personal as sex.
Karen, who is ordinarily great with things on paper
Karen, Are you saying that the ultimate goal should be that I am so differientated that I don't care what the response is to me 'risking' myself?
I can see myself doing this in most areas of my life, but not sex. I will always care what the response is..perhaps that makes me fused. I no longer think it is some reflection on me, but I do think it is a reflection on the state of our M. I don't know...I have a hard time with this. I DO care what the response is and, while I can hold onto myself if I don't get the answer I am looking for, I will be doing just that--holding on to my own disappointment and trying not to let the escape fantasies get the best of me.
I think the reason this is so hard IRL and easy on paper is that there is NO activity that requires as much vulnerability as initiating sex with a partner who has shown themselves to be uninterested, historically. Even my LDH has said that he would be crushed if I didn't want sex with him. He said it this past weekend, in fact. Oh well, I have nothing productive to add to the convo, so I will sign off.
I agree with your C. I think I"m finally starting to learn this. Speaking as a LDW (and rarely doing so on this board)predicting each other's reactions is a no no. I've done it so much (as well as it being done to me) and it never produces good results.
We all grow and change. When we hold our S to their past behavior we limit them to that behavior. What if your W is trying to change? Even if only a little. It quenches all motivation to say "you always do". "Always" is a no no word.
When we look for the negative we'll see the negative.
When we look for the good and watch for the changes our S is trying to make and acknowledge it. It gives lots of motivation to keep changing.
I however, have gone past that point. Depending on him to notice was a rollar coater that I have gotten off of. I am now motivated to change whether my H ever acknowleges it or not.
Really learning to accept the other person as they are (like it or not we married it) is huge. I even accept that it is difficult for my H to do this for me. I'm patient with him in that.
Is this being "differentiated" sp????. I don't know, ha ha, but whatever...it is freeing.
If my H noticed or positively responded to changes I'd made, it would be a great motivator. When he didn't, I'd go into depression. I was changing for his benefit. To make him happy; to jump through the hoops that he said I needed to do to make him happy. But, as is I rarely hit the mark. I was discouraged to the point of often being depressed.
Now I change because Iknow I need to. I haven't arrived but I have come a long way. And WHEN he even says that I have not and holds me up to 20+ years of lumping my actions into a catagory I hear what he is saying. I listen. I see what is real and what is just his emotion and HIS issues talking.
I don't depend on him to make me feel right. I KNOW what is right and good about me and don't depend on him to keep me pumped up. I try to do what is right regardless of what he does. And not let it depress me when he doesn't. I choose to accept him and who he is. I can't wait until I feel like doing that.
Yes, Nicegal, that helps explain it to me. I do a lot of hoop jumping for her entertainment, although it has definitely decreased over the past year. It wasn't making a difference anyway.
One of my big problems is separating the wheat from the chaff. Some of her statements about me and about our relationship are true, some are not. Learning to differentiate between the two is my task right now.
Hi Atl and everyone, I hear what you say Atl. In an undifferentiated moment of frustration I gave W the old "If you gave me one hundredth of the attention I give you I'd be the happiest man alive". For some reason I have been backsliding lately... SD
In my H defense, I know I gave HIM plenty of hoops to jump through too. I think we all do. I think when anyone just points their finger at their spouse and what they need to change, well problems will continue.
One reason I LOVE Michelle's stuff is that it gets us to looking at ourselves and what we can change about us. For me, just for the sake of changing me. If my H reacts and changes in the process, GREAT. But I am not changing so that he will change! I am changing because I NEED TO. (We all NEED TO).
That I CAN do. I can't change him and don't care to anymore. I've truely come to the place that I accept him. He is certainly not perfect, but neither am I.
Unfortuntly I didn't hear him when he was talking about his sexual needs earlier in our marriage (no one's fault, just faulty communication) so there are a lot of things to get over. I don't know if he ever will. Ok, I'm sorry, I accept that he was very hurt. I love him. I hope things will get better between us.
But....I was thinking earlier this am. Talk to your wife. NOT in a fight. Find out her needs(first) (listen) and then ask if you can express yours. You'll have to figure out how. Read lots of good stuff on it and pick what seems to suit you. Yikes! Sometimes as hard as we try to do that right, it comes out wrong! On your part, when it comes out wrong from her....love her, overlook it. Keep trying. Don't give up.
