Looking backward...but only to move forward

[sage]

Good golly....2 year anniversary of the bomb dropping! Whoda thunk that all of this would have been accomplished! Thank you, thank you, thank you, Michele and thank you to Cindy who lent me her copy of "Divorce Busting".

One of the things I'd been planning to do for a while was compile the "stuff that worked" from my threads. Why? Well, partly because I feel like I did have good success and want to remember what the keys were...and partly because I sometimes get amazed when I find myself stuck in the "same old" sitch again and partly because I'm often awestruck when I realize the tremendous advice I have received from so many people here...

So...here's a link to my first thread...my first post and in the next few posts some of the insights that I gleaned from those first few weeks here...

*********** posted 12/02 ****************
In a snapshot: H and I are both 36, married 7 years, known each other for 17, no kids (though they were in the "plan"). The marriage has had many very good times and some times of significant stress. We struggled about 3 years ago with some trust issues (H had a friendship I felt very uncomfortable with. Due to some unresolved stuff from my childhood, I found myself very suspicious and it just escalated from there). We were in counseling for about a year and came out of it with what felt like a very solid marriage until somewhat recently.

About 6 months ago, I started to get the sense that H. and a female work friend of his were more intimate than just a friendship. There was just something about the way they interacted that set off warning bells. She is part of "the guys" that he hangs out with from work and also she had tried to be my friend as well. In addition, "the guys" and their spouses had started having social events together so I know both her and her husband.

Sensitive to our history, I brought the subject up to my H. and he was calm and generally responsive but said I was mistaken. This went on and off for a few more months and finally, unable to shake the feeling, I went back to our marriage counselor alone to "resolve my trust issues". Around that time, my husband and I had a big fight about her and he said that he was going to quit his job so that I couldn't hurt her or her marriage with my "paranoia". Later he said that he was actually quitting his job (which he did) because he didn't want to be in his line of work anymore and since about 1 year ago he found out about a degenerative disease that he has, that he felt that life was too short to do something he didn't like. That was in early september 2002 and he's been out of work (and not looking) since.

On November 1, 2002, I found a series of emails from her to H. which confirmed the fact that they are having an EA. The emails were full of pet names and ILYs and details of secret meetings. I confronted him and he admitted the EA but said that they had not slept together (tho' he said they did kiss). I told him it needed to be OVER and a few days later I was in the room when he told her by phone that he could no longer talk with her.

Since then, we've been to our MC once. During the session, H. said (he had said it before to me as well) that he was not looking to leave me for her but that he was not sure that he wanted to be married to me anyway. He said that he thought there was something "broken" in him that didn't need to be with other people and that he wanted to be alone. MC said that he couldn't help us work together if we didn't share the same goal of saving the marriage and told us to go off and seek individual C.

H. did go see a C. once (this was a BIG step in my mind since he's very anti-C) and seems willing to go back. I guess the overall goal is to address his illness, any depression as a result, his ambivalence about our marriage, the OW, etc. I have an appointment with a new C. for myself this coming week.

So...in many ways, our home life has stabilized and even improved over the last 6 weeks. H. and I spend a lot of time together, he has restarted saying ILY, calls me occasionally during the day, etc. All wonderful things and I know from reading the BB that in many ways, I have so many things that others are missing currently in their marriages. I am truly grateful for what is good in my marriage right now.
********************
Sage's first thread

Sage

[sage]

Just to keep the circle going...

Here's my last thread...

The love you initiate....

[sage]

My first thread was about a month after I started DB'ing. As you can see from my first post, I was seeing good progress already by not initiating R talks and by focusing on spending QT with h. I think I had failed to realize how important just being together and having peaceful and fun times was to him....I did find myself struggling at times though with pervasive thoughts of the OW. Bringing her up was dooming for me and often resulted in a big old backslide.

Here are some thougths that I pulled out of my first thread...

Even then, h was clear on how he felt about what he had done:

Thoughts from h…important to remember when I’m feeling angry!
"I know that I have laid out a minefield. And, I've made it too easy for each of us to land on a mine. And when that happens, I feel sad and bad over what I've created."

One of my main focuses became improving my communication skills...I realized early on that I just wasn't giving h my full attention while listening AND that I was using my words to try to control him....this has continued to be an area of focus for me but when I look back I'm absolutely amazed at how much better I've gotten at it....here's an insight I had AND a solution I came up with (thank goodness for Post-its!)

One thing I'm noticing about my conversations with him (particularly phone ones) is that I don't always really listen -- I think I can be very knee-jerk and controlling on the phone.

>> I DID put a post-it on my phone at work that says "Listen, Don't control, Don't knee jerk"

I used goals liberally and had my best success when I took the time to really flesh out "actions"...here's one of my goals around listening...

H. and I will communicate more successfully with each other -- good, bad and neutral topics


How will I know?:
I will feel as though I can share my thoughts and feelings with him in safety.

I will no longer feel as though I need to "walk on eggshells"

H. will initiate or participate in conversations about his/mine/our future

H. will initiate or participate in conversations about the A.

H. will converse with me in a way that lets me know he feels safe.

What steps will I take to get there?:

Each day I will read at least on story that I think will be of interest to him (start with sport section ) and initiate a conversation on that topic (note to self: pick something you're interested in too!)

I will listen with 100% attention whenever we are talking. That includes phone conversations. NO doing other stuff during the conversation.

I will HEAR what he is saying instead of interpreting his words.

I will no longer ask him questions without giving him all the pertinent information.

I will no longer ask 2 questions in a row on the same topic that are mutually exclusive

I will no longer edit what comes out of his mouth

I will "hold onto my seat" when he tells me something that upsets me. I do not need to solve or react to every bad emotion instantly.

I will tell him that I need a break if I feel in danger of losing it.

I will stop asking questions that are meant to interrogate. (Yes, I do this sometimes!)

I will, for the time being, stop asking him personal questions completely unless he initiates the topic. I hope to reintegrate "normal" personal questions sometime when his radar isn't so sensitive.

I will talk 50% less than I really want to

I will let him make decisions that normally I would make (and I will not edit his decision!)

I will keep tone even, voice cheerful and upbeat. I will eliminate sarcasm.

I will SMILE when I answer the phone and throughout the conversation (if appropriate!)

I will acknowledge his feelings even if I don't agree with them.

I will stop the running and interpretive commentary in my head (see earlier post about the "ILY call")

I wonder how many things have become habit and how many I still need to really focus on!!!

I read a number of helpful books during my DB'ing and one of them "The four agreements" helped me to try to let go of ASSumptions and expectations (still something I work on every day!)...h has been clear in the past about how I telegraph expectation to him...

A few other times over the last week he definitely seemed distant and mentally out of sorts. I spent WAY too much time interpreting his moods until he finally gave me a wonderful piece of insight. He said "Sometimes, you look at me and I know that you're EXPECTING something from me and it's too much". He's absolutely right. I'm spending way too much time focused on him.

As I mentioned, one of my biggest problems in the beginning was wanting to ask questions about OW....here's some awesome advice that Jim (Umbrella24) gave me when I was really struggling...

Let's go through the possible results of this.
1) You bring it up, H gets defensive, shuts you out. Result - BAD.
2) You bring it up, H admits it, you feel like dog doo. Result- BAD.
3) You bring it up, H lies and says nothing happened, you find out later he's lying, you lose trust. Result - BAD.
4) You bring it up, H tells truth that nothing happened, you probably don't believe him anyways, now you're mad because he's cheating AND lying. Result - BAD.

Sage

[sage]

Here's a link to my second thread...I was posting fast and furious at that time and getting great support from my BB friends!

Sage's second thread

I was very much in reflective mode (yah, ok, when am I not! ) and was spending a great deal of time thinking about our M pre-bomb...

Not to be melodramatic or delve too much into my past but DB'ing has slowed me down enough to see what I've brought to the table in terms of messing up my M. Not listening totally, controlling H. and now, it's becoming pretty clear, NOT appreciating his love for me for what it is -- a gift. How many times have I doubted him? How many times have I "dropped the other shoe" so that he couldn't do it first? My H. has been telling me this all along -- that I never seemed happy (and how could I be? Wasn't something terrible going to happen?); that he couldn't live up to my expectations, etc.

TBH, this is something that I still struggle with...in fact, much of my desire to mark this anniversary in such a dramatic fashion is to make a clean break...to finally leave this past behind while still gleaning the lessons and taking them forward.

One of the things that I absolutely still struggle with is just letting h love me...being confident and accepting of his love...

Had another insight this morning that it's not just that I've not appreciated H's love for me, but, that I've not let him feel safe in my love for him. I'm listening to "Light his Fire" and the first key elements are:

1. H. needs to feel appreciated and loved just as he is
2. If you can't feel unconditional love right now, fake it
3. How he feels when he is around you is the key to a successful M.
4. An A. is often about finding someone who makes you feel wonderful about yourself. It's not about being in love with them, it's how they make you feel.

I've often complained that h doesn't tell me what irks him but if I actually stop and listen I find that he does...

H. gave me another tidbit of feedback this morning -- he asked me a question and I gave a longwinded answer that basically culminated in my telling him to "look it up". He responded with "Saying 'I don't know' is an option". OK, I guess I talk on when a simple admission of not knowing would suffice -- of course, he failed to recognize (and I didn't bother bringing this up) that in my JOB, saying "I don't know" is not a positive thing -- so, I've just brought that style of conversing into the home. Anyway, I've been complaining for years that he doesn't give me feedback -- so I'll take it where I can get it!

He did say a few things that I need to stick in my memory bank -- that he sometimes felt like I was a "ticking time bomb" -- that is actually true and what it tells ME is two things -- that I need to work on managing my own internal stuff but that I ALSO need a way for us to work together when it just gets to be too much. I don't know how to talk to him about the hard stuff (OK, maybe last night was a good step in that direction) and it does end up making me feel as though I'm either going to explode or go crazy.

Sage

[sage]

I had a session with a DB counselor early on and found it a wonderful way to crystallize my thoughts...here's what I jotted down...

1. H. and I have an excellent "social connection" -- we enjoy spending time together going to movies, dinners, etc. Use THAT connection as a way to build intimacy, move the R. forward (note: get concrete on what that means in terms of actions).

2. My big blow-up last week was a result of not managing my insecurites/feelings about OW in general and state of M. in particular. Come up with a list of concrete activities which I can use to deescalate my anxiety (note: post to BB, do yoga, meditate, use the "24 hour" rule, have a diet pepsi or piece of candy! etc)

3. I'm having trouble believing my H. and the good things that are happening because I focus on "how can he say these things to me if she's still in the picture?"

4. re. #3, I need to STOP using the OW as a barometer for "what's working". Simply put, OW is NOT going anywhere anytime soon so her continued presence in our M. can NOT be used as a sign that things aren't going well (otherwise I'll never make any progress!)

5. If I were to act "as if" I believed my H.'s affection towards me I would be warm and loving in conversation, I would NOT hesitate to reply lovingly (the hesistation is when I'm playing the OW tape in my head)

6. The fact is that I'm going to have to fake my faith in him and our M. for a while. It will feel mechanical and like I'm micromanaging my reactions. That doesn't mean that it's not working.

7. I need to somehow find the faith that giving my love to him w/o regard for how it comes back to me is good for me and my being.

8. I cannot make a judgement on how the M. is working based on OW's presence

9. I want H. to feel safe and loved by me. I suspect that that is a big issue in our M. right now. If he felt safe he would be physically relaxed around me, physically affectionate.

10. I need to a) develop a plan on how to manage my feelings b) not use OW as a barometer c) return to the things that were working before blowup d) Behave as I did when my marriage felt wonderful to me

11. When thoughts of OW creep into my head, I should use a single lovely image (a good time with H., a comforting place, a prayer or mantra, etc) as a positive vision instead.

12. Use the pain of friday's blowup and its aftermath to keep me from obsessing about OW.

13. Things that were working: a) reducing criticism and controlling b) really listening c) affirmations (note: figure out what this means for H.)

14. Figure out the things that make H. feel loved and safe -- try some things out

15. Verbal affirmations don't work with him (are not primary love language). Physical touch is important to him as is quality time and acts of service.

BTW, I'm not so sure #15 is actually TRUE! while WOA aren't his primary LL they ARE important to him!

Sage

[sage]

More stuff from my second thread...

Goals continued to be a key motivator for me during my second thread…aside from the communication goal already posted, I had these two as well:

Goal # 2 -- I will work to increase the emotional and physical satisfaction in our M. for both H. and me


How will I know?:
I will feel content and secure w/in my M.

I will feel more confident that I am a satisfying (emotionally and physically) partner

I will stop obsessing about the OW and comparing myself unfavorably to her

I will feel as though my physical and emotional needs are being met w/in my M.

H. will be loving to me (through words, physical touch and actions)

H. will no longer seek to fufill significant emotional needs and physical needs outside of the M.

What steps will I take to get there?:

I will approach each day as a new beginning for loving H. and appreciating our M.

I will note and journal at least 3 things each day that H. does that are loving.

I will lighten up!!! I will laugh more often and stop taking H's ribbing so seriously

I will plan 2 things to do each week (dates in or out)

I will make a list of interests/"acts of service"/gifts which I can use to surprise H.

I will declutter house at least 1 hour (total time) a week

I will review arts/movie/music listings each week for interesting items and suggest them

I will cook 1 new recipe a week

I will give H. positive reinforcement when he meets my needs

I will use a combination of physical touch/acts of service and words of affirmation to convey love (small gifts may work too)

I will shut off the negative voice w/in my head

I will keep a list of "lessons learned" when H. gives me feedback

I will increase my confidence re. physical intimacy in a variety of ways that I will not publish here

I will do my "DB'ing" w/o "expectations". I'll monitor results but not make each encounter laden with expectation

I will use my strength of researching to identify areas of interest -- baseball, cooperstown, hiking, orienteering, WW1 and 2, games (chess, war games, etc), law, movies, restaurants, music, sports in general and use this info to plan activities, hold conversations, etc.



Goal # 3 -- I will keep my PMA high and my live my life fully


How will I know?:
I will stop feeling anxious/panicky

I will stop obsessing about ow

I will laugh more, feel happier, share more joy

I will feel as though I am being true to myself, my desires, my values


What steps will I take to get there?:

I will continue to meditate daily

I will continue to exercise 5-7x a week (weights, cardio, yoga)

I will continue to eat healthily

I will continue to explore Buddhism, mindfulness, compassion training through reading and audiobooks

I will carve off time for schoolwork and be clear about my needs in that area

I will continue counseling in an effort to identify strategies to improve my PMA

I will use mind techniques to stop obsessing about ow (starting NOW I'm no longer capitalizing her "name". She is reduced in significance!!!)

I will develop a set of coping strategies for difficult times

I will continue to take vitamins

I will recommit to my daily job but begin looking for a job that is more in line with my interests

I will cut myself more slack. I am doing the best I can each day.

Lofty, huh??? When I wasn’t being incredibly verbose about my goals, I was able to distill them into three simple sentences:

At a minimum, I feel as though I really need to:

-- Continue working on communication techniques (listening, focusing, not editing, etc)

-- Continue noting and appreciating H's affection and send HIM love messages in HIS preferred style

-- Keep up my PMA (through relinquishing thoughts of ow, etc)

Individual counseling was helpful to me for a while…here are some of the things I identified:

I had a great counseling session last night. We've been talking about how detached I've been from the good stuff in my M. and my intimacy with H. for probably my whole M. This has really come to light for me through my DB efforts. I need a real focus to be appreciating and recognizing H's affection -- I suspect I've always made him feel inadequate in that way -- through my own mistrust and fear.

Anyway, we also worked a bit on this "mind running wild" thing I do re. ow. Simply put, when I start feeling "out of control" w/H, I conjure up this amazing (and devastating) "movie" about him and ow -- either past, present or future. It seems to be my way to get away from the uncomfortable feeling ("I'm scared H. is out with ow", "I'm feeling afraid of being alone", whatever) and putting in its place a MUCH WORSE feeling but one that I CONTROL -- Not sure any of this makes sense but I've got something to work on...not necessarily putting up a "stop sign" when I feel uncomfortable, insecure, unsure, but, noting the feeling, facing it WITHOUT creating some elaborate scenario to go along with it.

Reacting well to h when he is quiet has always been a struggle for me…here’s a funny post about how I was learning to handle this:

Since the minute I got home last night, H. seemed slightly sad/withdrawn. It wasn't overt in his actions per se, but just this sense, this aura around him that he was sad about something. Historically, this is the kind of thing that doesn't go great for us -- I sense (rightly or wrongly) that something is amiss for him, I ask, he says nothings wrong, I don't believe him, etc. So, either nothing IS wrong and I torture him or something IS wrong and he doesn't care to share it with me (and I torture him).

What I did OK in response:
1. I didn't ask if something was bothering him directly. (This is a 180 for me). At one point he mentioned "If I ever get a job" and I said "are you feeling depressed or sad about not having one yet?" and he said no (and that he needed to take a more "forceful" approach to looking) but that was as far as I took it with questions.

2. I didn't spend a lot of time creating a "movie" in my head about WHY he MUST be sad. Normally, this would be the time when I would spin off some elaborate tale about why he must be sad -- the more tragic and victimizing to me the better. Last night, I won't say I didn't think about it at all -- but I didn't create anything elaborate in my head.

What I didn't do well:
1. I withdrew emotionally from him. I was so busy "watching" him to gauge his responses and got somewhat wrapped up in my own response that I really felt pretty reserved. I wasn't overtly rude or mean or anything like that! But, I was really mentally acting like a third party trying to watch and figure out the sitch. I didn't really feel present in what was going on. By the end of the evening, I was feeling a lot of emotions inside -- sad, mistrusted, left out, lonely, frustrated, out of control, afraid. Again, I didn't use my common defense mechanism and spin a yarn. Instead, I lay in bed and tried to name the feelings I was having. I did shed a few silent tears.

What I'm going to try next time:

I've tried pursuing. I've tried withdrawing. I've tried anger. I've tried a whole host of other not so great behaviors. What I haven't tried is being present and being accepting of H. I haven't tried being warm and loving and accepting and releasing my thoughts.

Actions:
1. I will give H. physical warmth through a genuine hug, genuine touches, etc.

2. I will be loving and upbeat, through conversation and touch. (I will act "as if" if need be)

3. I will remain present -- not escaping into my thoughts of "what is wrong here? how can I fix this?". I will listen to what he is saying/doing and stop the running commentary

4. I will release my thoughts -- of needing to fix what may (or may not) be broken; of ASSuming that his sadness is related to ow, etc. Of even ASSuming that he's sad (or whatever) at all.

Sage

[sage]

And finally....My first list of “what works and what doesn’t” (posted 2/13/03) – amazing how so much is still true!!!:

What works (things that get us into a good state):

* Social activities -- movies, dinner, hiking, working out together

* Playing games -- we just started playing chess again and I think that's going to be good fun. H. is also really interested in sports and war computer games -- but I still can't give him any reasonable competition yet. Gotta find something that I can be ok at.

* Just spending time together -- since I've mellowed a bit and stopped "doing" so much the times that we just sit together (him watching tv, me reading) seems to really generate positive feelings for both of us

* physical touch -- holding hands, him touching my hair, touching feet in bed, sex -- all of those things foster a greater sense of intimacy

* rituals -- we've got a few different rituals that come and go but they're usually good at bringing us together

* champagne at home

* "drinks" out together -- I'm separating this from just regular social stuff because there seems to be something special when we go out for drinks and appetizers

* Talking about sports (and acutally, my increased interest in going to sporting events)

What doesn't work

* My current method of striking up an important conversation
I stew for a long time before bringing stuff up

I bring stuff up at inopportune moments (late at night, before we're heading out for something fun)

I lump a bunch of conversations together into one

I start the conversation convinced that it will not go well

I am not clear on the goal of the conversation

I "ambush" H. by not letting him know I have something I want to talk about

* When I'm feeling insecure and need reassurance, I set H. up by doing something (sending an e-card, etc) that has a single "desired" response and then get peeved when I don't get the response

* Actually, in general, my having an "expectation" for a desired response doesn't seem to work well at all...

* The cycle of my questioning H. about A or ow and the cycle of him defending himself by lying

* My snooping (I'm coming to realize that this is an attempt by me to minimize my anxiety by FINDING something. I do it ONLY when I'm really anxious and stressed out right now. I also create "movies" in my head about terrible things happening when I'm anxious or stressed)

Sage

[whats_next]

Sage-
Oh my gosh. I am loving this new thread. It is funny, just this weekend I was thinking that I wanted to ask you about your early threads. When I read that you have been at this two years, I became really interested in how things have progressed. I am definitely going to go back and peruse your old stuff.

Here are the items that have really connected for me in your summary above:

1) Presence of OW is not an indicator of how my M is doing. – Since OW, H and I all work at the same company (about 600 people) and he does need to interact with her for work, her presence will be an ongoing challenge.
2) Communication/listening- a definite area for me to work on as well. Plus with a toddler, it is tough.
3) Appreciating H’s love for me- My H was always gregarious in his love for me. Unfortunately, I took it for granted and didn’t pay enough attention after our S was born.

So here is what I’m interested in: affection and physical intimacy. My H does not show any signs of affection. I try to lovingly touch his back or stroke his hair to let him know that I am okay with it. He doesn’t pull away like he used to but he doesn’t seem to really like it either. Also, we haven’t been doing too many one on one activities- my parents suggested that we take in a movie while they watched S and he didn’t seem interested. How long did it take your H to become more interested after he broke off with OW?

I am following your story and am really identifying with your thoughts/goals. I also conjure up all kinds of scenarios and ASSume that H’s quietness or bad moods are a reflection of how he is feeling about me or us.

H and I were also married 7 years when this all started. Perhaps there is something to that seven year itch theory.

Keep up the great work and helping others! I'll be checking back!
WN

[Wonka]

I read somewhere else on the board that it takes anywhere from 3 weeks to 6 months for a person to get over OP/OW/OM. Severe withdrawal here....just be patient and be there for your spouse.

[Wonka]

Sage,

I took a look at your earlier threads. My hats off to you!! Dbing for 2 solid years. I've only been at this for a month and I feel like tearing my hair out.

Is your H at home and broken off from OW? What is your sitch now?