History and the beginning of the problems Me/H=61, Her/W=63, M=1968, D=1970, S=1972, Built current home 1974, Me/H=auto mechanic since 1960 to 1987. College 1987 to 1990 Office equipment repairs since 1992. W=nurse 1964 to 1968, stay at home mom 1970 to 1980, part time to 1987, nursing school 1987 to 1989, hospital 1989 to 2003, then retired 2003.
Short version Started out being a team. W and I wanted more so I worked more. W felt neglected. I had back and eventually employment problems from working too much, W had to work, lost her knight in shining armor. W, got into “women's issues.” W, views money as “spend what you have.” Me, have enough for a rainy day. W, “I want.” Me “I fix.” W, the more pets the merrier.” Me, All pets have to be house broken. W, pet accidents happen. Me, I do not want to live in a “pet out house” inside our home. Back to W saying “its my money.” Me, $12,000 in a year on TV “shopping channel” stuff and other things we already have? Your crazy, woman! W, I’m leaving, am buying a no maintenance Condo. Me, Take what you need, and please take all of the pets. Do not call me to fix anything. TV or remote gets locked up. W cannot get TV to work. None of her calculators add correctly according to her. They all work for me????? Me, read several books DB, DR 5LL,Dr Laura, Internet. W, why all of those wacky, crack pot books? Me, started doing things for and by myself. W, accused me of having a homosexual relationship with old male work friend. Me, kept PMA, kept doing small things for W, spent more time rubbing her feet / etc. W, acting like sponge, taking it all in. W, started to want to be closer than in last 5 years, Me, keep PMA, no telling her what is wrong with M. Even ML once in a while. W, invites me to sleep in her room sometimes if I use my CPAP (reduces snoring and arrested breathing events while sleeping). Me, some nights I sleep with her and the dogs / cat. Still feel like I am 3rd. on her list at times. Me, still reading, I have PMA, I do little acts of service/ touch, no more saying what is wrong with M, quit doing and or giving till nothing left to give, not demanding or expecting much in return. More relaxed feeling in household. Me, not asking W “do you want to do X Y or Z.” Stating I would like to X, Y, or Z. Me, discovered W does not like wimpy or controlling men, likes a man with goals. W still skeet shooting ( my ideas or wants get rejected often). Me, more differentiated, hold on to myself (HOM) more so her opinion or rejection does not hurt as much.
Long version if you want the details from my side of the relationship.
I always had a full-time + part time job. W said I ignored her / worked too much. I always heard "we need______" so I found a way to earn extra money to buy the things she talked about.
I had a back injury 1981 and 1986. Things started to go down hill / not the strong "can do" person anymore. I had to change careers so I went to college. W went to nursing school, (her occupation prior to M) got a job in the mental health field taking care of patient’s needs and medications.
W worked in Co-dependency department for a while. The center taught the patients to be independent and not let anyone manipulate them. I called it the "Me School of Thought / Women's Issues Training Camp." Most of the clients were female.
In college, I listened to several women who were into the women's issues and they would let you know if you did or expected typical 50's gender rolls behaviors. I agreed with most of the women and learned how difficult it was for a few women to be Mrs. Cleaver. I also saw some women wanted equal rights most of the time, but also wanted preferential treatment in some situations. Some wanted it both ways according to their particular need or whim at the time. W kind of slipped in this role too
Spending Patterns We both spent too much money before the back injury. I backed off spending because I could not work all of the extra hours anymore. W always seemed to be comfortable buying things on credit. W still had the "we need______" mentality. Because she used to complain, that I worked too much and ignored her I decided not to listen to the "We Need_____." anymore. "Mostly because buying things never seemed to satisfy her wants and I saw how it contributed to her feelings of being ignored when I found extra work to pay off the credit card. I had that “shopped out feeling."
Shopping List Since moving into the house, we had 5 beds ( last one $2,500 ), 4 or 5 refrigerators, 3 freezers (daughter still has 2nd freezer), 3 cook stoves, 4 sofa /chair sets, 4 recliner chair, recent very good 32" TV upgraded to 47" projection TV, 5 VCR's, 3 DVD players, 4 Stereo tape/CD player systems, 2 hot tubs, 2 ski machines, 2 exercise bikes, and so on. None of the old items were ever worn out. She wants 90% of the things that come into our house. I got tired of having garage sales to get rid of the old stuff to make room for the new stuff " We Had" because the "We" in garage sale work was mostly “me.” So if I was not getting much help in the disposal end, something had to change.
I took a pick-up load of clothes, a pick-up load of furniture, and a pick-up load of slightly used exercise equipment to the Good Will Store. She can buy the things but "I" have to find a home for them when she gets tired of the things she buys
The Zoo W has 4 dogs, ( 18#, 22#, 65# & 125#) 3 birds, had 6 cats and 1 fish. We can't go anywhere more than 4 or 5 hours; someone has to let the dogs out before they urinate in the living room or the bedroom. I do not have a problem with having “A” dog, “A” cat and “A” bird. Even having a couple of one type of animal is OK, but the zoo is too much. I am afraid to go in the pet store. Last time "We" went to get a litter box, she had to have the 125# dog. Nice dog, he even thinks he is a lap dog. Very loving dog, but even having steak and lobster for every meal becomes a problem. BTW 3 cats died recently of old age / cancer, W said she would not replace them. Some progress I am thankful for.
Od D'pue ( My version of stinks ) One cat urinated on all of the carpets except in my room. I snore so W sleeps in the other bedroom. W had a hard time smelling anything bad except on days above 90 degrees. I asked W to find a home for the cat that was urinating on carpets. She said she did not know which cat was urinating on the carpets and did not want to do anything until she was 100% sure she found the culprit. I waited for 4 months for W to do something. Nothing happened so I paid the animal shelter $100 to take the cat "I thought" was responsible for the bad smell in the house. Cat was also chewing electrical cords and ruined about 4 power transformers that power small electronic equipment.
It was the cat or me. I reasoned I should not be the one to leave, it’s my house. I picked the most likely culprit correctly. Other cats peeing, but not as much. W was Ok with my decision, she just did not want to do it herself I guess.
I had to remove the carpets because it smelled so bad. We had particleboard floors for a while. I installed laminate flooring in most of the area where the carpet was removed. Steps to living room still in plain wood. W's complaint is " It takes too long to complete projects." She is correct. I work, cook, and problem solve around the house, W is “retired.” W does not do ladder stuff, paint, and on and on, and most of the windows are “too hard” to clean according to her.
“It's my money! You need psychiatric help” W has been buying from QVC (TV shopping Channel for all of you out there) for several years. Last year I added her invoices for 2003. The total was $5,200. The year before she spent $2,500 and about $2,200 the year before that. I called QVC to see if they had a shopping addiction program for the buyers and a spousal program like Al Anon for the non spending spouse. QVC, did not think spending money was a problem and said there was no shopping addiction program.
We have so many kitchen appliances and most never get used more than a couple of times. She only cooks one or two meals a week. I do the rest or I take her out. She was working 2.1/2 days a week. Sometimes, on her work days, W would not empty the coffee grounds from the coffee pot. But the animals get 2 hours of care and cleaning every day.
Shoes, purses, jewelry, and cookbooks abound. I had to take the QVC shipping boxes to the recycling center because they would not fit in the trash bin. Prior to QVC it was shoes and purses from the mall.
I disliked the excessive purchases and told her so several times in 2002 and 2003 I told her even more times her buying was crazy. W told me that I had become the "Nagging Wife". She said it was "Her Money." She pays for her things and the pet supplies / care. I pay for almost everything else that comes into the house or is associated with operating a household, except if it is not needed, like the $2500 bed, the upgrade to the 47" TV.
Dumb ways to make a living ( not really ) I had a 1969 Chevelle. W got angry and was going to call junk motor vehicle disposal to haul it away. I got busy and sold parts from the car. I got $1,100 for the parts. W never thought the car was worth any money. We have a totally different view on what things are worth.
W dislikes that I have my business at home. Basement and garage full of office machines and office machine parts and supplies. She is right that I have the house "Junked Up" but I see my business supplies as miniature (not gold mines) copper mines. True, nothing very valuable but $20 here and $75 there. Selling my "Junk" and billing for machine repairs all add up at the end of the month.
I had a shop away from home but after the rent and expenses at the end of the year, I earned $6K less that year, worked harder than I had when I worked at home.
Keeping up with the Jones, Getting Short Changed. W sees, someone (neighbors / friends / relatives) always have more than we do. I say they have a fulltime government income and a fulltime refinery income. We have your half time income and my fulltime income at 60% of what the refinery and government jobs pay. When she gets the "We do not have," I say, "Yes, we do not have any loans outstanding like our neighbors have." "Isn't credit wonderful." (Sarcasm) Or sometimes I say "It's a new ______ or it's QVC stuff, what do you want?" "You can't have both!"
I recycle things, like older cars, and its OK to repair things to make them last longer. For example, if water gets in the lawnmower gas, I drain the gas and carburetor, refill the tank and mow the grass. W wants to buy a new mower the first time it will not start.
Tractor Supply commercial has the perfect example of what I mean. A guy tells his dad “The mower will not start” ( guy pulled the rope one or two time I guess ) Dad said “Lets go to Tractor Supply and buy a new mower.” Just the way W operates.
More Money Issues A distant friend (PA) retired once, then went back to work at Wall Mart 3 yrs. ago and sold his retirement fund (was worth $20K but went down to $12K) when the market was down. He is 68 yrs old and bought a Corvette with his retirement money. He said he might as well have “some fun” before he lost all of his retirement money in the stock market decline. Now he has to work fulltime. W wants to have fun ( spend the retirement fund ) but not work like PA does.
W complained about her one $38K retirement fund dropping to $25K because the stock market was down. She wanted to sell her one retirement fund and go on a cruise or go to Vegas before it was worth nothing". This was a Fidelity mixed retirement program. All I heard for a while was "Investing in a retirement fund is gambling, might as well go to Vegas and have some fun". I frequently have to say, "investments go up and down, its normal". All she sees is she lost $13K. I say, "you only put in $18K and now have $25K. What did you lose?" "When the fund was worth $38K, the market was over valued." Since then the stock market averages have gone up, her one retirement fund is now worth $34K.
Last straw I told W that I would rather live in my car like the crazy lady does by the river than live with her spending, complaining the Jones have more than we do, wants to cash in her retirement fund and have a good time, wants me to pay the taxes on everything including her income tax (she said she does not make enough money to pay taxes, the IRS should exempt her income from taxes), and almost no intimacy or sex. I told her that I come 8th or 9th on her priority list, just above her almost dead gold fish. ( me very serious ). Well maybe I am 4th. Sometimes!
I also told her she treated her mother like crap when her mother had breast cancer (W would not take her 92 yr old mother (GM) to the hospital because W had to get up early, W said she is “not an early person”). Then a misunderstanding about GM having a birthday party for her 102Yr old brother and only visiting GM 3x or 4x in 8 or 9 months because some relatives told W the truth about GM’s 102Yr old brother’s BD guest list.
Then 8 months later, W's 92 yr. GM broke her hip and I had to make the first hospital visit. W finally made up with her 92 yr old mother (GM) who died 6 weeks after breaking hip. After the bills were paid MIL/GM had $7K to pass on to W. W spent that in 6 months.
After the insults, W looked in the paper for a new condo. She did not want anything with maintenance. I agreed. "Working 2 1/2 days a week, cleaning up after pets, and watching 24/7 news, and 60’s / 70’s sit com’s most of the day, she was over worked." (sarcasm).
A couple of weeks later she wanted to be just friends and live in our house. W also said I was too controlling. I call it being responsible and doing what is expected of a person in a spousal or extended family relationship.
Moving On I had felt very stressed for a while. The stress was causing my back to ache again, and I was starting to get rashes. I decided to go to a MC. I went to the first appointment alone. I Finally convinced W to go to the second appointment. Counselor said she saw so much resentment in both of us we should separate for a while. I told W the ball is in her court, she had to make the next appointment.
She never did, so I got on the Internet and looked at the dating sites to read what women and men wanted or had to offer in relationships. I read the ads and most sounded like fairytales. I also saw “Need to be accepted without question” often in women’s posts. Does that mean I want what I want, when I want it / free spirit / no rules for woman but the man has to be giving and responsible all of the time.
Then I looked for problems with relationships that developed through the Internet. I looked for personality test that would explain why W and I are so at odds with each other. I found several personality / compatibility test at marriagebuilders.com and filled them out for my understanding of myself.
Results from e-Harmony was that 5% of the women in the USA had almost the same interests, values, and wants as I have. e-Harmony said 40% of the women say they admire my traits but would have some difficulty living as I live. I never signed up or contacted anyone at any dating site.
Progress I read many post on DB's BB. Read the "Divorce Busting" book, Dr Laura's "Proper Care & Feeding of Husbands", "Stupid Things Coupled Do to Ruin Relationships", "Five Love Languages" and several other semi-good and wack-o books. I left the good books / personality / history inventories on the coffee table for 10 days but W never took the time to read anything.
I work at home so I ASS-u-ME (self sarcasm) she is not motivated to change much, but things are better since she saw I was reading the books and implementing a few suggestions I read from the books.
I didn't "go dark" but I did back off. You can't make anyone do anything. But you can react to a situation and implement behavior changed or consequences. Example to W, "If you want room in the house for your new _____, “you” have to find a way to remove _____ with out my help." Something I never would have done before because I always believed it was my duty as a H to do certain jobs around the house no matter what.
I also started to have service calls just before lunchtime and before dinnertime so I could stop at the taco place and have some time where I did not have to cook or wait on her. I would call home and say the job went differently than I had planned, that she should eat without me. I always had leftovers in the refrigerator or something she could heat in the microwave oven. ( boy, do I sound like the co-dependent / fused wife )
I also stood up for a few things I think any respectable spouse deserves. I was tired of her attitude "I Do what makes me happy" from W's work. For me, Love is more than a feeling ( adjective ); It is an action ( verb ). Sometimes in the past I did not want to work a fulltime job and a part-time job, but it was not a biggie for me to work and maybe the kids did need braces and dance lessons. I was the income person, so I stepped up to the plate and found the money. I see now that being the “income person” led me to be the absent spouse and the W felt like she had been the “left behind spouse” even though most of the time I was in the garage at home.
Progress I have been reading and posting on the BB for 4 months and have made several improvements in our relationship. This only happened after “I” decided I can only work on me and if W wants to work on her or the R I would do what ever was reasonable, if not she could leave to “be happy” and she can take anything in the house, especially the “ZOO” but do not expect me to help her move. W can hire a local mover, register for all of her utility connections. My mental opinion that I did not share was. If you want to leave, be gone for good.
W can also learn to get the TV to change channels by herself. She presses too many buttons on the remote at once and the TV or the remote locks-up and does nothing. To fix this situation the batteries have to be removed from the remote and reinstalled. The TV needs to be unplugged for 10 seconds and plugged back in. W still does not know how to fix the TV when it locks up.
The way back to US I did many of the things recommended in “Divorce Remedy”, tried to present myself as a happy, self-sufficient person that had friends. I called one of my old buddies and went to lunch and breakfast a couple of times. Did some car repairs with male friend that blew up in my face. This event was a deries of phone call “do you want to abc a car on (day). Next call “ would xx:xx time be good for you. I did the job in 2 hours then home. Next day friend called and said he owed me lunch at Burger King (BK), for the car help. I said “sure” I was repairing a copier in west end of town around 11AM. I said, “see you at the west BK after I call you when I finish at blanks office.
W accused me of starting a homosexual relationship with old work friend. She said she could not compete in a homosexualrelationship. And If I continued to see my friend the M was over. So far DB and DR book making things worse.
I kept at having a PMA and being pleasant to W. Thought of her as a distant relative. I can not tell her what to do, but I will never take any crap from her; “Iron clad boundaries” for me.
Winds of Change W changed a lot one evening, don’t know why. Next morning she got in bed with me and wanted to be close. She said I had changed and she was impressed. She said, Instead of me telling her what I thought needed to be done to improve the M, I had not “pushed” her and seemed to expect nothing of her, so the pressure was off, the nagging quit, and her resentment was less.
Several times since the big break, I have felt like giving up. Usually in a couple of days some little thing improves and I have hope again. I am reminded by the books to do a little thing nice for W and expect nothing in return. The book 5LL said what is a gift from one person may not be valued by the other person so learn what your S needs the most and give a little everyday.
Example; W goes all out Thanksgiving and when everyone does not compliment her highly, W gets her feeling hurt and then she gets angry. I am learning; Better to give a little and not expect compliments than to give everything and demand compliments, not get, them and become angry.
I learning not to listen to W when she talks about wanting something. I now know she wants something but she wants my attention more than she wants what she is talking about.
Also learned to not listen when she says she does not want anything from me on Mothers Day etc days, She said the kids are supposed to honor the mother, not the H. Mothers Day, her birthday, and our anniversary all come within a month. I call it the “Triple Witching Month.”
I am still learning when W’s “no” really means “I want you (H) to work at it for a while so I (W) feel wanted.” The old “no” really means “yes” thing, but first you have to jump through some hoops to prove to me that you love me. I need help on this one.
I have not felt like posting prior to today because I did not have time to implement and measure the results of some of the concepts that are listed in the books recommended on DB BB. If you look, you can see this is not my first post. I have learned a lot by reading other people’s post. I appreciate the group effort of helping each other. Thanks for reading this long post.
OG Lou Getting there in baby steps, PMA, and your help.
Quote: Example; W goes all out Thanksgiving and when everyone does not compliment her highly, W gets her feeling hurt and then she gets angry. I am learning; Better to give a little and not expect compliments than to give everything and demand compliments, not get, them and become angry.
I'd say what you SHOULD take from this is that your W is a Words of Affirmation person, so no wonder all your Acts of Service didn't make her feel loved! Quit fiximg things for her and picking up after her, and just tell her how wonderful she is! Lots less work and you'll get better results
Seriously - I commend you for doing the difficult work of trying to reverse this downward spiral. I know it seems unfair that you are doing all the work at first, but you will reap the rewards. Try ramping up the Words of Affirmation and Quality Time and see what kind of results you get.
I also know it's tough for us frugal types when married to a spendthrift. I don't know if you can teach an old dog new tricks, but would your wife maybe read a book like Smart Women Finish Rich? Very sound financial advice in an easy-to-read format.
What part of Montana? My mom's from Joliet, on the road from Billings to Red Lodge
I worked for Billings Toyota, the dealership that sold Joliet a blue Toyota pickup that the Joliet police used for their radar speed trap back in the 70's. I also knew a guy that worked on the police force there about 5 years ago.
Your are correct, I am working my (AOS) butt off sometimes for very little reward. I have been stopping myself more when it comes to fixing things, or rescuing W form the woes of technology. I am becoming more aware of my rescuing mode as I switch my mental gears to provide W with more WOA.
WOA, I do that when I can and truely mean it. It is difficult for me to act one way when I really feel something different. W tells me she does not believe me sometimes when I try to compliment her. It's the old "Am I fat" word trap you see on TV. If I say you are fat, I am putting you down. If I say you are not fat, then I am lying to you just to get on your good side. My point is, If I fake it I sometimes get caught or get accused of doing something I had no intention of doing.
Once, A friend told me that I did not have to answer her question, she could see the answer written on my face. I often remind myself by saying to myself "You have to do a little acting here."
And when I do say WOA I do not know how much good it does. I guess I will have to keep doing it and not try to guage the effect. I know these things take time and favorable results build gradually.
I get "thank yous" now for AOS, which is a big improvement over what used to happen, the old W would have said "I would have done it this way." I told her how I felt when she said that and stated my intentions and wishes for her response.
I am not trying to creat the impression that W is an old crank or I am the perfect H, just that there are issues and insults that most people would mot subject their friends to. I ask myself "shouldn't sopuses treat their married partner better than they treat a friend." I suspect if W had posted here her complaint / problem list would would include some harsh criticisms of me.
The spending thing is a big deal for me. I see money as a tool, if used wisely it will take you where you want to go, and do the things you want to do. A one pound hammer drives nails fine, the hammer I bought in 1960 works as well as the hammer I bought in 2004 for the little I use it.
Some guys at work have said " If I do not spend a hundred dollars when I go out, I never have fun." I do not get it! I can have fun drinking a Coke, discussing how things work, and laughing with friends, for the cost of a case of Coke / beer and some munchies.
<<<would your wife maybe read a book like Smart Women Finish Rich? >>>>
W bought Suzy Orman financial planning box set (6 CD's 6 booklets)about 2 years ago. Suzy was selling the set on QVC. W only read a little of the material and never listened to the 6 CD's. So to answer your question. Good option but probally no, but it is worth a try because Suzy's materials take a while to go through.
I will continue to read and try new things based on the reactions from W. A college class in Applied Behavior Analysis comes to mind. Short version: If you do plan "A" and get 5 favorable reactions in the test peroid and yor do plan "B" and get 6 favorable reactions in a test peroid, use plan that results in the most favorable results. IE Ways to avoid cheeseless tunnels, quit trying things that did not work and try something new. Measure the results. Little improvements over a long time lead to major change in a lifetime.
Lou, If the spending is your major issue in the marriage, then why do you continue to bail her out? Why not keep completely seperate accounts and each be responsible for paying certain bills? If you did not know about her spending, and she was totally responsible for paying for her purchases, would it ease your mind?
I agree that her spending is wildly out of control. I think, though, that you are enabling her to continue this form of self medication by providing her with the means to do it. Set some boundaries on what you are willing and not willing to do and let the chips fall where they may.
Also you hinted around at some changes she would like to see you make...what steps are you taking to make that happen? Are you willing to make any changes for your M, at this point?
Just trying to get a handle on your situation and wanted to check in with you!
<<<<, Why not keep completely seperate accounts and each be responsible for paying certain bills? If you did not know about her spending, and she was totally responsible for paying for her purchases >>>>>
W had her money accounts (checking, IRA, and retirement) for 15 years. I did that because I wanted her to be accountable for her financial actions. I did the separate IRA because she wanted to sell some of our joint retirement account I managed “To have some fun” as W puts it. I wanted her to keep track of her funds, and watch her account grow. I wanted her to be a sole owner and “buy in”, not just be a Monday morning quarterback. Kind of like setting aside part of a garden for the kids when they were little. They could see the results of their actions or inactions.
We went to a M counselor 10 years ago. C suggested I support the relationship, be a proper husband, (pay for house, utilities, food, transportation) and W pay for her personal things, clothing, pets, furniture, and decorations. Now, if I we go shopping and buy groceries, dog food, and pantyhose, I pay the bill at checkouts and W writes me a check for the dog food and pantyhose.
I used to loan W money for her purchases. I stopped 3 years ago. Then 2 of her relatives died and willed her money. So she replaced my no brand, 7 person spa that I bought in 1985, with a 7 person spa that had a “brand name.” It took me 3 months to move everything and sell the old spa. W did the same with 3 yr. old 32” TV. Started out talking about a 36” TV but bought the 49” TV.
I work out of our home and can see when UPS, FedEx, and the mail service each deliver something she bought from QVC etc. There were days when two delivery services delivered a “present to myself” as W put it. Some weeks at least one thing came every day from a delivery service. I asked UPS driver if he made the most deliveries to us. “No, a lady 2 blocks away has you beat, but you are a close second.”
I think the root of the problem with the spending is W sees the neighbors have more than we do, the very liberal, “you deserve it” attitude among her co-workers (many are in credit counseling), liberal policies promoted to the clients at work, and she had a lumpectomy 5 years ago, which triggered more spending.
As far as not knowing, the only things that are not obvious are the jewelry purchases. W admits spending is excessive. To her credit, she has reduced QVC to $100 a month. Still buying the “hair care system.” To me it is just shampoo, conditioner, and styling gel. W buys into the fancy terms and promises QVC host use.
<<<<< Would it ease your mind>>>>>> No. W is spend what you have, I am spend for what you need.
In my work I visit agencies that frequently state they have a difficult time functioning because they are under funded but at the end of their fiscal year they are busy spending what money they have remaining to replace perfectly good office furniture or office machines, dumb trips or new vehicles, etc.
<<<<<<<< Some changes she would like to see you make>>>>>>> Simple answer, I have too many cars and too much business related inventory at home. I have the extra cars up for sale but few lookers. I have been donating the old computers, copiers, and printers that were traded in and junking out some completely obsolete machines.
W buys transportation based on looks, what is trendy, and age of vehicle. I buy transportation based on, does it do the job I need it to do, how many miles will the vehicle go with some servicing, and is the price very reasonable.
W almost always has trouble cold starting the cars we have ever owned. Was complaining about driving an 84 Caravan with 80,000 miles on the odometer (she drives 4,000 miles a year) so I bought her a fuel injected Caravan and one for myself. She did not like hers so after a while I bought her a newer Caravan that looked better. That one was good until she wanted a vehicle with 4-wheel drive. In the mean time one of the dying relatives gave us a car with 34,000 miles on the odometer but W does not like it so I drive it. Next, W gets $7,000 from the now dead relative and buys a used 4-wheel drive SUV. Now the problem is I have 4 cars parked in my fenced-off area (local ordnance for extra vehicles) plus 3 in the driveway that get used.
HP I have been impressed with your advice to others and post about your R with your H. Persuasive, not demanding, stating what you need and respecting H’s feelings. I am Impressed with the balanced. Happy new baby wishes to you and family. So many people on the SSM threads write so well. I wanted to post there but I know other things in our R have to be more harmonious before the EC and PI improves. Thanks for interest.
OG Lou I worked in a deliquent boy's group home once. Some of the boys were from the LA CA area gangs. OG means old gang or origional gang. They used to call me OG which is like being a charter member.
I've been lurking but not posting lately, and would like to ask you a question...
I am not a spendaholic though I do enjoy buying myself some treats now and again. I do have a friend who is very guilty of this very behavior, and he didn't develop it until he had 10 years of sobriety under his belt. When he decided to head back in to counseling after digging himself a financial grave, he was astounded at the emotional triggers that started him on this journey.
He shared with me that "keeping up with the Joneses" and indulging himself in retail therapy provided him a temporary high that enabled him to avoid the real fears and issues that were lying underneath. Most of these issues began in his childhood.
Let's assume for a moment that your W likes trendy new stuff and lots of it to compensate for something that she is not getting... let's say that her childhood triggers are carrying over to her adulthood and she hasn't taken care of the little girl who needs something in her soul.
If you were to guess, what would that be?
Have you read the 5 Love Languages? If you posted this earlier, I apologize for this. We all feel valued when people speak our own language. For the longest time, I thought I needed words of affirmation... however, a close friend of mine believes I am a quality time person.
When I didn't get either from Mr. Wonderful, I went a little nuts. I actually became angry and started laying mines in our marriage landscape. It sounds plausible that she is doing the same thing with her spending, knowing it is going to force a hand.
What do you think?
Betsey, with in-law family all across Big Sky Country
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
I read a book about relationship problems. The author's theory was some people come to a relationship and try to repair their childhood.
Issue 1. In my W's case, her dad died when she was about 3 Yrs. Old. So I expect she has some insecurity / abandonment issues. 5 years ago when she would fight with me, she frequently said "Do you want a D" My reply was to say "get reasonable and talk about the issue".
Issue 2. W had a cat and wanted a dog when she was around 10. Her mother said she could have a dog if she gave up the cat. She has felt guilty about taking the cat to the animal shelter. Hence the ZOO. I let her have the 12 animals (with some protests) to help try to heal the guilt she felt (trade in the cat for a dog event) when she was 10.
Issue 3. W wanted to have clothing that the popular kids wore in high school. W's mother bought W clothing at a popular no brand local chain store. W said the popular kids wore clothing from a local, well-respected family name that had an up-scale clothing store.
Issue 4. Different financial backgrounds. W's family was middle income even after her dad died. My dad died when I was 2, my family never had much. W lived 10 blocks from the college but wanted to live in the dorm, so she moved to the dorm (extra fees). She was home when she lived in the dorm. W family always had money to do "want to do" things. My family had money to meet only the necessities.
Issue 5. W had a 5mm breast lump, surgery lumpectomy about 25mm to 30mm, radiation, and estrogen suppressor drugs for 5 years. I guess she thought "I could have died, why work and save, live for today" but she never said that, just acts that way sometimes.
<<<<When I didn't get either from Mr. Wonderful, I went a little nuts. I actually became angry and started laying mines in our marriage landscape>>>>
I did read 5LL and W fits the QT (wants me to focus entirely on her) the best I can determine. W gets anoyed with me because someone calls and I talk to him or her. Deffinatly wants ALL of my attention.
I have read 15+ books about relationships over the last 10 years, listen to radio and TV programs about family and relationships, and even bought an set of introductry level tapes a church was promoting dealing with family and couples counseling.
Sometimes (not very often) W is very all touchy-feely and considerate. Just too many times I feel like I am not making much progress and ask myself if I would be happpier alone. But, still trying things to see what works.
<<<<I actually became angry and started laying mines in our marriage >>>>
What behaviors or things did you do? What made you stop or did H do something to get you to stop? Any "Ah ha" monents for you? Looking for clues to improve my situation.
OG Lou Slide rule formula for determining the volume of a jar. Read the label it is quicker, someone already did the work. Learn from the work of others who have succeeded.
Great insight! So you think she might be attempting to repair her childhood by acting out, huh? I think it sounds too plausible to discount.
The excessive desire for QT leads me to believe she was ignored as a child? Boy this is a toughie...
Laying land mines... well, I'm a reformed crazymaker. I'd say outrageous things or do blatant things to get a response from Mr. Wonderful. I usually got a response, but what I was hoping for and not asking for was reassurance or kind words that he noticed me.
When I didn't get the affirmation, my statements became bolder and more hurtful: "Maybe we should just get a divorce! You seem to like spending time with everyone else but me, so what would change?" Uh, famous last words, and I'm eating every one of them now.
I've mentioned this in my old threads, but looking back, I wonder why I was shocked? On his way out the door he screamed, "I have NO idea why you're so upset! This is what you've wanted all along!"
I remember thinking, how did you conclude that? My light bulb moment didn't happen until my sister pointed out to me that I had been egging him on for some time.
I had help here in discovering why that crazymaker in me existed. It took a lot of conscious effort to stop behaviors that were not helping me or my sitch. That compulsion still lurks under the surface, but I try to keep that girl under control...
So what are you doing to take care of Lou? Sounds like that might be the best plan of attack for you, my friend.
Take care and hope the weather is sunny up there. My loved ones are headed in that direction on Friday night! No snow until they are headed south again, okay?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Underdog wrote: <<<"Maybe we should just get a divorce!>>>
Is there an echo that stretches from MT to Co? I got that line several times when "I" wanted to talk about what "I" saw as a problem in the M. All "I" wanted to do was determine if "WE" could resolve an issue. Her way was to threaten to D out of frustration.
As I said in my origional post, when I agreed it might be better if she did buy a no-maintenance condo for herself and the zoo she quit the "do you want a D" stuff.
My contribution to the problem is W thinks I have time for everyone else but her. It started dating. I would be with her every day of the week when not working. I finally said to her tuesday and wedensday evening I have to do things for me like clean, repair the car, etc. Once the kids came along, I felt I had to earn the money for extras by working overtime. I always worked at home on relatives, friends, and neighbors cars.
That put a little ice in the R. The more I worked, the more she wanted/spent. I got to the point that I started to think why work, she will only want more. I wish she would have said what she really wanted was my time and attention. Problem was when I quit spending with my money, she started buying on credit, then her spending inherentance money.
<<<So what are you doing to take care of Lou?>>> I am reading here on the BB, the books, going to lunch 1X week with a auto mechanic I worked with in 1985. Son telling me about the good time he had at bike event in Moab UT.
I am also paying more attention to W when/where I can. It took a while for some small payoffs. I still refuse to go shopping for shoes when W has 20+ pairs. In general not participating in W's excessive behaviors.
I have adoped the attitude I will be fine with her if things continue to improve and fine by myself if they don't. I really could live in my van, camping trailer, or until I found a old house that needed some repairs. Hay, I ate PBJ or cheese sandwiches for lunch most of my school years. It does not take much to keep me happy.
I did read some of your old posts, which I should have done before I asked the question about your situation.
<<<Laying land mines... well, I'm a reformed crazymaker>>> My question to you. What should your H have done or said to make you reduce or stop the "crazymaking"?
Your reply would look like this: I felt or was _______________ when H did ________________. What I wanted from my H was__________________. (frequency, amount, concrete, measurable items / events). If I got ________ I would have done_____________ for H.
Three most important things, three examples. Not: I was angry with H because H ignored me. Thanks.
<<<No snow until they are headed south again, okay?>>> I will call the weatherman on TV and put in your request. In addition I can recalabrate ( screw in back of display) my barometer so the barometric pressure reads in the low 30's. Barometric pressure of 26" = very stormy, severe hurricane. 30"+ = no cloud in sight, and all hat with a little adjustment. Not saying what the weather will be outside though.
You ask difficult questions! I am curious at your W's perception of you being available for everyone but her? What do you think gives her that idea?
Before I embark on your test, let me make the following statement. Because I am responsible for how I feel, and it was also my responsibility to figure out why I acted so nutty, I really don't want to put the emphasis on the latter part of that equation where Mr. Wonderful needed to do something to help.
It would have been nice, but in the end, I still needed to figure out why this dynamic was present so I could stop the cycle.
A true crazymaker will do things to get a specific result. The problem? They don't go about it in a straightforward manner... leaving the rest of the world wondering how in the world they are supposed to figure this out.
My H was married to his job. Not because he loved it or because he was really trying to run away from me or his daughters, but because the position he was in was very visible in his company (and the government) and he was the point man. Unfortunately, it resulted in him being on call when he wasn't, getting calls to come in to work in the middle of the night (and holidays too) and many times, I was expected to drop what I was doing to cater to this.
This sounds reasonable, but we were both frazzled, dealing with a developmentally disabled daughter who was sick a whole lot and functioning on constant fatigue. None of this made good bedfellows. The more he had to work, the more he craved time alone.
He would walk through the garage door when he got home... and where he USED to come upstairs to greet me and give me a hug or a kiss, instead, he dumped his stuff in front of the bar, poured himself a drink and promptly walked out on the back patio without acknowledging the rest of us.
Have I laid enough ground work? And yes, I had my own crappy dynamic to add too. Mainly, expressing my dissatisfaction with how things were going. I was a constant burr under his saddle.
I can give you one or two examples right now, because I have to call in payroll in a few minutes...
I felt abandoned when Mr. Wonderful did not acknowledge me when he arrived home. What I wanted from my H was a smile and a hello. Maybe even a comment like, "Bets, I'm really missing you lately." If I got one of those, I would have encouraged him to go sit out on the patio until dinner to regroup.
I felt resentful when Mr. Wonderful was able to take a day off of work to go fishing--which put me in the driver's seat with the girls and their activities. What I wanted from my H was for him to encourage me to do the same--once a year would have been fine, but a few times a year would have made me elated. Instead, I met objection and a martyr for having to rearrange his schedule to allow me some much needed downtime. If I got time alone without worrying about the repercussions, I would have done the same for H.
Thanks to some self introspection and input from friends, I think I'm not very complex. Where I've always considered my LL to be Words of Affirmation, I'm pretty sure my LL is QT. It doesn't have to be much, but it does have to be present. And I don't want to be resented for needing it.
I used to accuse him of putting everyone else before me. I still think that. And now he admits it... because he was full of resentment toward me, and knew the one way to hurt me most was to deny me what I wanted the most--HIM, BEING PRESENT WITH ME. Unfortunately, resentment is one of those gifts that keeps on giving. And the more you add to the pile, the more momentum builds as the vortex gathers speed.
It's funny. Now we both are very receptive and kind hearted about this sort of stuff. While he doesn't give me the QT, he does encourage me to have some down time and to get my QT from the people who DO want to be with me. So when he needs the same, I'm happy to give it to him.
I don't know who started it, but I figure it's like the chicken and the egg... someone did, and it feels awfully nice to be respectful and considerate toward each other.
I did think of another one. I used to ask him to call us when he was out of town just to check in and say hello. He refused... assuming it was a point of control for me. It really wasn't, but he wouldn't budge on his perception. The fact is, the girls loved hearing their dad's voice and it made all of us happy if he did call to say hi.
This issue came up ad nauseum in MC. He steadfastly objected to my request, saying he shouldn't have to do it. Our MC finally had a light bulb moment and made the following statement, "Well, K, she doesn't NEED to wash your clothes, but she does. If she were my W, and that was the one thing that made the difference between the type of reception you get when you get home (a chilly and resentful one or a warm and happy one), I would be the first one to dial that phone."
Mr. Wonderful looked at both of us incredulously. I wasn't sure if it hit home or not. But he went on a business trip a few weeks later and called when he got to his hotel. I was surprised but did not comment. He said, "I realize that your request was not unreasonable and the fact is, I really would like to talk to you and D10 when I'm gone." He's been calling ever since.
He's in Los Angeles on a business trip right now. He called me from the parking lot (afraid that he was going to miss his flight, which had a near miss but happy ending) and left me a VM when he landed (my cell battery was dead). So he phoned again an hour later at home and filled both of us in on his adventures. Of course, he had a few items to add to my "to do" list!
Thanks for your pull with the weatherman... I'm sure it will make all the difference!
If I'm not back on before I take off, have a great weekend. Be good...
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
