So last night...H watched the football game with a friend from work then left to take his friend home (it was about 8:30). His team won it after being behind, so he was in a good mood. On impulse, and after drinking 2 wine coolers so I could get up the nerve, before they left (while friend was in the bathroom) I pulled H close to me:
Me: I'm in the mood for a little lovin' when you get home. H: (Wincing - seriously!) I'm tired. Me: Well I'll be waiting for you in the bedroom. H: We'll see.
So they left and he was gone FOR AN HOUR! LMAO! Talk about avoiding. Said his friend wanted to show off his new surround sound system. WHATEVER. That gave me time to light candles in the bedroom, put on my new matching bra and panties (which he LOVES), put on slutty makeup, perfume, the whole works. I KNEW this was going to make him uncomfortable but the whole time I just kept repeating to myself, "There is nothing wrong with this. You can have it your way sometimes, too. You deserve this." Finally he called and asked if I wanted him to stop for some ice cream. (Way to try to throw me off track, H! He knows I love ice cream.) I said, "Did you forget? We're having a different kind of dessert tonight." He said, "We'll see." I said, "Honey, sometimes, every once-in-awhile, we get to do this MY way. It doesn't always get to be your way." He didn't say much - I figured that would give him something to mull over during the drive home.
Shortly before he arrived, our neighbors (for whatever inexplicable reason) decided to start loading firewood into the back of their pickup truck. Our baby very rarely wakes up at night, but OF COURSE the f'ing noise woke her up at precisely the moment H pulled into the driveway. There I was, laying seductively on our bed with the candles on and all ready to seduce him and the baby started crying!!! Gotta love the life of the parent.
So I got up with her and he came into the nursery and told me I smelled good. I heard him go into the bedroom and take his clothes off and lay on the bed - good move, H! But by this time *I* was feeling frustrated. I'd already been on the verge of losing my nerve all night with his noncommital comments. The baby crying (and NOT wanting to go back to sleep) put me over the edge. I just sat there with her in the nursery crying. By the time she got back to sleep I was tired and not in the mood to be a sex kitten anymore.
I went back into the bedroom and things pretty much went downhill from there. He thought I was upset with him but I said, really, I was upset with ME because I had lost my nerve. He blamed himself. I said I just have to get used to initiating again. He tried to be sweet and make me feel better, but I was just so embarrassed by that point. For a moment I knew what it must feel like to be an LDW - trying so hard to be sexual but just wanting to shrivel up and go to sleep.
So then we started talking about the sex situation, and I brought up our conversation last spring and he said he thought we had made some good changes. It went something like this (I'm paraphrasing a bit):
Me: Yes, it seems like we are having sex a little more often [like once every 2-3 weeks instead of every 2-3 months] but for me it isn't just about the sex, it's about the passion. It's about wanting the man I love to come home and rip my clothes off sometimes. It's about me getting all tarted up like this and, instead of acting like you are dreading being with me, you come home and you can't keep your hands off of me. I need this in my life, honey. I NEED THIS FROM YOU. H: I just don't think I can be that person. Me: But you CAN be because I've seen it before. There have been times when you've been like that with me. What is different about those times? H: I don't know. I just get scared. Me: Scared of what? H: Just scared. Me: Scared of me? H: No. Me: Scared of sex? H: I don't know. Scared of what will happen if we start having more passionate, intimate, frequent sex. Me: You see, honey, the part I don't get is what is so scary about that. To me the thought of strengthening our marriage and closing this chasm between us and, as a bonus, having great sex all the time is not something scary, it's something exciting. Please help me understand. H: How can I help YOU understand when I don't understand? Me: Well, what do you think you could do to understand it better? Read a book? Go to counseling? H: I've tried that. Me: But what is the alternative? To do nothing? H: I don't know. I wish I knew why I was like this. Me: Do you remember how, in SSM, it talks about how even if you don't know the reason you feel less sexual, you can still be sexual? H: Yes, but that doesn't appeal to me. I want to find out what's wrong and fix it. Me: That's great, honey. But I don't understand how you can say you want to fix something but you aren't doing anything to fix it. H: I don't know what to do to fix it. Me: Well what would compel you to feel the urgent need to fix it? H: I don't know. Me: Honey, that answer just doesn't work for me. I need passion in my life. I want it from YOU. I want us to figure out a way to unlock the passionate guy we both know is lurking inside of you because we've seen him come out before. I am ready and willing to make whatever changes I need to make to myself to help that happen. H: I just don't feel motivated to change. Me: That's what I'm getting at, honey. You NEED to get motivated. We NEED to figure this out because it is having a negative effect on our marriage. H: That's just not motivating to me. Me: Honey, our marriage is not going to survive this. Do you know that? I'm not giving you an ultimatum here, I'm not saying I'm leaving you tomorrow, I'm saying that if things go on like this our marriage will not survive. I can't live like this anymore. We need to do SOMETHING. H: I guess I can read that book again. Me: That's great, honey. But you just told me the book didn't work for you. Are you willing to give it another shot? H: If it will get you off my back. Me: I don't want you to do this just for me, I want you to do this for YOU. H: But I won't do it for ME. I just won't. Why don't you do some research online and see what you can come up with? Me: No, honey, it's your turn to step up to the plate here. If you want to change, you have to do it. Only you know what is lurking inside of you. I have done research, I've spent hundreds on books, we've gone to counselors, and little has changed. If you want to change, then find a way to change, and let me know how I can participate in that. But I'm not going to do it all by myself anymore. This has to be a joint effort. H: (Rolling over to go to sleep.) Well not if you're threatening to leave me. Why should I even try? Me: I'm not threatening. I'm dealing in facts. I can not and will not go on like this. I have no plan to leave you. I love you and want to stay with you forever. But this situation is tearing me up inside. I do not see our marriage lasting if the situation just goes on like it is. H: We'll see.
So he woke up this morning and spooned me and said he had given it some thought and he's a facts-based person and he needs to find out the facts of why he doesn't like being passionate, and then he will be able to fix that. I asked him how he's going to do that, and he said he doesn't know. I told him I appreciated his efforts and that I have confidence that he can do this. But that it also can't be open-ended - that he needs to give me some kind of timeframe for when he is going to start his "research."
Honestly, I feel this "fact finding mission" is yet another stalling technique of his. I think he just wants me to calm down and go into one of my modes where (he thinks) I don't think about sex anymore.
In a way I feel good that we had the conversation, that I was honest about the demise of our marriage if things continue, but didn't actually give him some kind of ultimatum. I'm curious to see if he actually does anything to "fact-find" but I'm doubtful he will.
Hi HH, Sorry the nite didn't go as planned, but you did a great job of expressing yourself! You gave him the perfect dose of pressure by emphasizing how serious the situation is for you, that you will not accept the status quo, but you are not abandoning him and want it to work out.
Now is the difficult part...stepping back a bit to see what he's willing to come forward with. This is a good time for you to take really good care of yourself and make yourself happy.
One suggestion I do have is for you to think about more specifically the goals you have for the marriage. Wanting "passion" can seem like an overwhelming request. Perhaps breaking it down in small steps ( i.e. suggesting you work on enthusiastic hugs and spontaneous touches and such) may be less intimidating.
Anyway, congratulations on handling yourself so well...my experience has been this isn't a "one shot deal" but you set a good framework for now.
Quote: Honestly, I feel this "fact finding mission" is yet another stalling technique of his. I think he just wants me to calm down and go into one of my modes where (he thinks) I don't think about sex anymore.
Sorry to be the dissenting opinion here, but I think you captured the essence of it in that paragraph - I felt the same way, reading your account of the convo. Of course, I couldn't actually "hear" the vocal inflections and tone, so I may be misinterpreting based on my own anxieties, but the fact that you posted that also is not a good sign. By all means, see if he comes up with anything, but my money says he doesn't. I think in order for him to believe you're in earnest, you will need to take some unilateral action - something that will cause him to feel unsettled. Like maybe take an unannounced holiday without him, or something. Just suddenly announce one day that you're going to visit your sister or whatever, then when he gets home you're not there. Maybe something less drastic, like going out in the evening or something, but something that you would not normally do, that is clearly for YOU, and excludes HIM. Aside from unsettling him, it will also be a treat (and a reward) for YOU.
Quote: H: I don't know. Scared of what will happen if we start having more passionate, intimate, frequent sex.
This kind of reminds me of my H. He never came right out and said this, but it is the "vibe" I get off of him. I think this attitude is a sort of odd stepchild of the male "fear of commitment behavior" most women have experienced at some point in their romantic career. I call it odd because it's coming from men who are already married to us. How much more committed can you get? I will answer my own question by saying that in my sich the answer is obviously that if he gives in to being passionately attached to me, he might actually have to make some effort to hold up his end of the relationship. As long as he holds me in sexual disdain, I have none of the traditional female leverage that might compel him to actually volunteer to chop up a log or get me a cup of coffee every once in a blue moon. If this sounds like your sich too, I suggest that you should do what I am doing. Make it clear that you have all the usual reasonable expectations from him in terms of contributing to the relationship and being pleasant whether or not he wants to have sex with you. Make it clear that actually having sex with you is one of your primary expectations. I know it seems like putting the cart before the horse, but it's the best I can do. My H is going to have to chop some logs, attend some social functions, talk to me in a respectful manner, etc. and have sex with me whether or not he wants to if he wants to stay married to me. It's his choice whether he can find a way to feel good about doing these things.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
heavyheart, I'm sorry to say that I have had conversations/arguments just like yours with my LDW in the past and they always lead to the same thing. Long periods of bad feelings and no sex. The trouble is that although it feels good to get it off your chest, you have just laid all the blame for your situation on your H and at no time did he get the feeling that he is a gorgeous, sexy, fanciable guy who's also the best dad in the world. After your assasination of his manhood my guess is that he will be struggling to fancy you for quite some time. So, while he is away licking his wounds you must change your ways so when he's recovered he will really WANT you. Leave him alone for a while - see my other post(s) on avoiding needy behaviour - play hard-to-get and don't initiate anything in bed. Make sure he knows that you love him but also make him feel that he's missing out. One thing I have learned is that the greatest force in the universe is the force of habit. We all need our comfortable habitual routines even if they are bizzare like routinely rejecting your W when she approaches you in bed. If you change your ways to remove some of his routine then he will most likely seek to replace it with an action of his own. You never know. He could be the one to initiate next time. On no account threaten him with leaving or insult his manhood again. Rule number one: Do not vent to him, vent to us - we can take it. Good luck SD
I agree with everyone here. I think you are getting some fine advice. Picking up on what MM said, it sounds to me what your H is afraid of could be 'fear of intimacy.' He loves it when you need him, but he doesn't want to need you. This makes him incredibly vulnerable to you, and makes it exceedingly tough to open up to you sexually. You are the one person, bar none, who could really, truly hurt him... yet his behavior is doing the very thing he wants to avoid: drive you out the door. He's in a fine Catch-22, thank you very much... and though I think his desire to get to the bottom of his fear is earnest, I also think his fear will keep him from getting to the bottom of it because fear of intimacy also acts as a defense mechanism.
I don't think you need to threaten him so far that he shuts down and lets you walk away, but I do agree with Tim that you have to make him uncomfortable enough that staying where he IS is worse than the alternative: breaking his habits, self-confronting, and implementing personal change.
You know, you could go to a shrink on your own without your H... you learning about fear of intimacy issues will help you understand him better, it will help you understand YOUR needs better and how you both inadvertently set one another off, and it will help you drive him towards his own crucible, in that caring, loving way that SuperDave is suggesting to you. Just a thought.
Hi, I wonder if the baby has anything to do with this? Was he different BEFORE you got pregnant?
I agree with Corri and think this is, on the surface, a classic case of "fear of intimacy and abandonment". Were there any childhood issues of abandonment for H? Is he adopted?
My X was an adopted, attachment injured, passive agressive, avoidant man. He wooed me with abandon, but as soon as we were wed, some things changed. And then when I got pregnant, major changes. In all, he withheld sex for many years of our marriage....when he wasn't 'getting' what he wanted. I have read that withholding sex is often when that person feels he/she has no power in the relationship.
This can all tie into what he said: he is afraid of what will happen. So maybe that means he is afraid that you will leave him after he has let himself NEED you, be vulnerable with you. OR maybe it is that he is having difficulty thinking of you, a new mother, as a sexy creature....you are somebody's MOTHER for goodness sake. And maybe he feels that when you are the instigator of SEX, that you are taking control, being controlling. Or maybe all these things.
There is a therapist who lives near me, written several books on the sexual side of marriages in trouble: Snarch (I think Richard is the first name).
If your H is willing to go to counseling, I would think that might benefit from reading Snarch's books and seeking out a specific kind of counselor.
I felt a lot like you: shy and embarrassed that my X didn't want me and i let it eat away at my self esteem. This is his problem and whatever the cause, what I learned is this: your making excuses for his actions or lack thereof are enabling. (I got slammed by the therapists for 'enabling' him instead of confronting the issue. You are confronting it, and I think you are doing so very lovingly. The guy in the above post who said DONT DO THAT might himself be a person who uses passive/aggressive coping skills ....that avoidance is a good sign, as is 'we'll see' and then shifting the blame to you. I learned that the only way to deal with entrenched P/A behaviors is to hold their feet to the fire...somethign I could never seem to do.
But a shrink CAN.
I admire your courage in trying to deal with this openly. I also admire your H for stating as best he could, his feelings.
The broad defining characteristics of attachment injured and passive/aggressive people are very similar: fear of abandonment, fear of needing and being needed. Anger at the fear, anger at the people who need him, anger at needing the object of his attachment (in my Xs case: first at the birth mother who abandoned him, then at me when I needed him when I was pregnant, then at me for his needing me.) And then RESENTMENT against me for not FIXING it.
Does any of that fit your H? There are certainly other things that could be going on....fear of his sexual inadequacy, fear that you will get pregnant again....oh dear, the list goes on. But chances are, if this is your first baby, that he is afraid of all the responsibilities in his life now that the 'falling in love good times' are over.
I think you have made a brave and wise start. And, using my X as a standard....your H has been very open in talking about your feelings and he even took some of the blame and tried to comfort you . (Oh, I wish I had had just a teeny little bit of that, sigh.) So don't give up on him or your marriage, but do try to get help ...this may be too much for either of you to handle without help.
When you told H that you wanted a 'little loving" you should have "done it" even though you were not in the mood. You could have told your H you planned on "super size order" but changed your mind to " Would you do me a snack order" because of the child crying.
Once you tell someone you are going to do something or want something, they have to change their mental picture of what is going to happen. Then, you changing to no interest in ML, your H has to change his mental picture again. He can use this change in several ways.
One, as you not knowing what you want, or Two, as he really does not have to listen to you because things might change and he can avoid doing what you want to do in the future.
In my own case, I was ready to ML all of the time before D was born. Then I was ready to ML most of the time before S was born. Aftre 2 children, I was horney most of the time but not as willing to ML anytime I was in the mood because of a possible pregnant (PG)and having another dependent. W was doing a good job with 2 kids, but I felt the third kid would be mostly mine to take care of. I had a full and part-time job and did not need any more work.
It was a double edge sword, I wanted to ML but did not want more responsabilities. ML was less often than I or W idealy would liked to do each other. W was on BC, then had a tubal ligation and then I heard about tubes growing back together and W getting PG. W kept telling me "1 out of 100,000 or more chances of getting PG" just made me freeze at times.
Nutty thoughts on my part? But that's the way I thought at the time. I now see that me getting snipped would have put all of that irrational thoughts out of my mind and I would have been ready to ML anytime.
No expert about the male mind, just one persons experiences.
