Quote: ...it does help to know that people don't think I'm just a serial complainer not worthy of a reply...
Oh LL, I know you're not just a complainer, but that you have been struggling in a one-sided R for a very long time and simply, I've run out of suggestions to try. (I'm still willing to drive over there and whack H with a 2x4 if you think it might help! ) ... and I feel foolish to keep sayin' "Hang in there" when you know your grip is slipping. I know how long you've been at this and what you've been thru from your first posts here ... and that you are still seeking hope (after all that is still why you are posting here, is it not?) is worthy of the reverence of a saint.
... but even if you don't see the solutions in grasp for the moment, I guess that's the key ... keeping hope alive!
... and as long as one in the partnership is doing that, there's a chance the M might survive. I'm finally at the position where I'm willing to let go of my hope in order to determine if CAW might ever consider grasping for any glimmer of hope herself. If not I guess we're done. I don't know if there's a way you can find to pass the baton of hope over to him without actually becoming a WAW.
I know its hard with young kids. I would have never made the choice myself because of D11, but in the end that was not up to me and CAW made a choice that made my position irrelevant, so I guess it was easier for me to let go ... but I think you need to consider, while you are steadfast in believing in sacrificing for the kids for so many years, will he continue to be for as long? ... or will it be possible for him to change his mind again?
Oi ... that sounds awful and LL I don't intend it to be. I'm just hoping that maybe exploring some of the darker paths, you might stumble across a lighted one that may help find some direction.
I was reading Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson and listenting to him on the radio this AM and had a thought. His idea is that when one spouse starts to disrespect another, a gap between the two opens up. When one starts to persue the spouse that seems to be drifting away, the drifting spouse moves further away. Begging and pleading doesn't work and in fact pushes the drifting spouse further.
I was thinking I was the disrespected spouse, but I started thinking, you know what? I'm the one who lost respect for him over the years, with his behavior and drinking and criticism of others and of me. So I pulled away and he persued and I drifted further away. I never considered cheating, I just lived with it. I knew I couldn't change him, so I accepted it. I let the kids be my focus, protecting them from his rants, not letting them see him passed out after being out all night drinking, taking care of them, going to visit both sets of grandparents when he couldn't get time off. etc.
So, how do I fix that?
I came to the midnight revelation that we both feel justified in expecting the other to fall in line, make amends, do what the other expects, without asking for anything in return. Does any of that make sense? Or is this one of those things that seem really important at 2AM, but not so clear in the light of day?
I'm asking you all because you seem so wise and our situations so similar.
Each experience in life has formed me, become part of me, made me stronger.
After being away for about a year, I was expecting to read something a bit more positive. It seems nothing has really changed in that year, has it? I'm very sorry.
I have to concur with KAW that it's really hard to offer up suggestions on how to tackle this, as we've collaborated many times already. I posted to KAW that I think, especially in your guys' situations, that unless your Ses really examine why they did what they did, then likely nothing will change. Your H seems like he thrives on distrations: new house, OW, work. The distractions prevent him from looking deeper. But, alas, we have no control over our Ses, do we?
Jethro....so nice to hear from you and hope the lack of update implies things are going well for you and your w!!
Quote: The distractions prevent him from looking deeper
what a valid point! but of course one that can be argued. As we now know (or at least should) not all people are created equal. In other words...though I could not survive in a life of distractions never affording myslef to look at myself or others a bit deeper than the surface some can only thrive in such an environment and think those of us that do look beyond the surface are too philosophical or just...well...nuts.
Of course there are extremes of each side ( I tend to think h and I are at opposite ends of this realm though I've tried to be a bit more of a surface dwellar he has not tried to delve deeper) it is possible to find a common ground.
something typical has just happend with h.
we have not been connecting...a distance has been growing...I keep quiet and go about my business doing my best to not let my frustrations show but eventually there are too many examples of incompatability and lack of same pagedness thrown in my face that I burst.
a confrontation occurs where I state these feelings...
a further gap seems to be created...more distance and then
h leaves a message on the phone suggesting we (I assume the kids and us) go out do dinner tonight...but alas within the message he realizes tonight wont work becuase 1. I have book club 2. he's working with the crew and will therefore be dirty...so suggest the possibility of tommorow night.
Of course this should be looked at as a positive but for me it's just another example of things that make me say...wtf?
no words? no admitted recognition of the problem? no long term solution to the problem? just a quick let's all go out to dinner fix?
No I'm not saying "too little to late" I'm saying wtf is this?
You know, LL, it just seems like your H is fearful. As long as he keeps his feelings at bay, doesn't engage you in confrontation, the junk inside of him doesn't surface. I simply believe (IMHO), it's a defense mechanism.
What ever happened to the counseling appointments you guys started some time back?
a confrontation occurs where I state these feelings...
a further gap seems to be created...more distance and then
h leaves a message on the phone suggesting we (I assume the kids and us) go out do dinner tonight...but alas within the message he realizes tonight wont work becuase 1. I have book club 2. he's working with the crew and will therefore be dirty...so suggest the possibility of tommorow night.
Where's your confusion? You blew up at him and he's trying to defuse the tension. He's probably frightened of your tirades - heck, LL, you scare ME sometimes (just kidding )
Look, I know all about that trick - being the martyr, getting madder and madder and keeping it all in, then lashing out. I used to be a pro at it. You know what? IT DOESN'T WORK. It is NOT the way to a healthy R, or to getting the things you want out of him.
What I've (finally) learned to do, is to simply address things immediately when they come up - calmly, non-accusatory, - simply ask the questions as they arise. Usually H had no idea I would interpret whatever he was doing in that way, or there's a completely different explanation I never thought of (the Itchy Butt theory), or else he apologizes swiftly for whatever minor issue it was, and then we go about our day. It is SO much better than building up all that rage and resentment, and the more we do it, the better we get at it.
So take some responsibility for your part (holding it in and then exploding), give him some validation for being the first one to break the ice (btw, most guys don't seem to use "talking" as their method of resolving things, so I don't think your H is alone in this) - and try to be as loving and grateful for his gesture as you can. You want to encourage this kind of behavior, don't you??
Quote: Look, I know all about that trick - being the martyr, getting madder and madder and keeping it all in, then lashing out. I used to be a pro at it. You know what? IT DOESN'T WORK. It is NOT the way to a healthy R, or to getting the things you want out of him.
though I appreciate the comments (I don't really scare you do I?) it seems as though you are assuming I haven't tried the
Quote: What I've (finally) learned to do, is to simply address things immediately when they come up - calmly, non-accusatory, - simply ask the questions as they arise.
that didn't get me anywhere and so I now just keep most un major issues to myself.
trouble is it seems I am more likely to get what I want out of h (even if only temporarily) by holding it in and "bursting" otherwise my "calm" "unaccusatory" "non judgemental" questions or request don't seem to be taken seriously.
Quote: You want to encourage this kind of behavior, don't you??
NO! I really don't want to encourage this satiating type of behavior because to me it is nothing more than the equivilant of a man who screws up and buys flowers, screws up and buys flowers, screws up and buys flowers instead of just figuring out why he's screwing up so he doesn't have to buy flowers.
Dinner out with the family as a means to make amends or say something unsaid is NOT what I'm looking for. what I'm looking for is what I've clearly stated to h
I would like
one night a week set asside for us to spend some qt together doing something other than him falling asleep on the couch while pretending to be watching tv with me. This does not require leaving the house or spending any money..it simply means after putting the kids to bed (they're in bed by 8pm) we sit together and play a game of cards or darts or whatever.
I would like more physical intimacy
I don't think there's any way to missinterperet what I want.
SO sure I say wtf to his suggesting we go out to dinner (mind you I haven't spoken to him yet about it but will go and be appreciative) when we clearly have some other major issues (like where we will be spending thanksgiving for example) that have not yet been resolved and to this point seem unresolveable.
one night a week set asside for us to spend some qt together doing something other than him falling asleep on the couch while pretending to be watching tv with me. This does not require leaving the house or spending any money..it simply means after putting the kids to bed (they're in bed by 8pm) we sit together and play a game of cards or darts or whatever.
I would like more physical intimacy
I don't think there's any way to missinterperet what I want.
Maybe try another medium? We already know talking is NOT his preferred medium. How about in writing? How about in a different place or time of day?
And even that can be misinterpreted - my H's continual pleas for me to change were wrapped in his smoldering anger and interpreted by me as A) a lack of love for me, B) a criticism of me and lack of him "loving me for who I am", and C) a frightening threat that carried an implied "or else I'll leave you" which really kicked in my fears of abandonment. No wonder I couldn't really hear what he was asking me for, with so many layers of fear and meaning wrapped around it!
Quote: we clearly have some other major issues (like where we will be spending thanksgiving for example)
How does this become an unresolvable problem? Ellie
it becomes an unresolvable problem because we are incapable of having a discussion about it. Sure we know where we will be spending the holiday but how we arrived at that "decision" is an issue in and of itself that seems unresolvable. He was thinking of himself and "his" family while I was thinking of the children and "OUR" family. There was no talking to him about it...before the topic came up he had already made up his mind and any issue I tried to address was imediately shot down. He wins as usual and at who's expense this time? not just mine but he kids.
(I'm still willing to drive over there and whack H with a 2x4 if you think it might help! 
) ... and I feel foolish to keep sayin' "Hang in there" when you know your grip is slipping. I know how long you've been at this and what you've been thru from your first posts here ... and that you are still seeking hope (after all that is still why you are posting here, is it not?) is worthy of the reverence of a saint.
)