Sorry I am so late getting back to you. Rough day, and now I am dead tired, but I want to throw a few things at you (in a nice way of course) and I will post more tomorrow.
One of the things I have been trying to get across to a number of people is not that my wife's LD was my fault, but that it was a secondary result from a bigger problem.
It is true that she is LD, but not dead :-) She lost the ability to do it with me because our relationship was cracking badly. Our relationship had gone south, and the sex had gone north.
I talked to her about this effect this evening while I was working, and she said that the distance had become so great between us, that the thought of sex was almost to the point of being disgusting. That distance was caused by both of us.
I am NOT saying that the same is true of everyone here. Every situation is somewhat different.
I was a bit shocked to learn the depth of her feelings.
As I had mentioned, she was a SAHM. Much like MM, she took on much of the responsibility of motherhood, teaching our daughter, and running a household, all the while trying to be a supporting wife to me during some of my most difficult career issues.
As the bread winner, I was left to make a lot of decisions for our family. A strange dynamic began to emerge. I became accustomed to making decisions, and like any other hard working honest man with few emotional skills, I blindly applied good business strategies in making decisions regarding my family. Bad form.
What this means in basic terms is that I repeatedly ignored my wife as she cried and pleaded with me to do certain things with/for the family. I didn't see these issues as having any priority, after all, *I* was embroiled in doing "important stuff". My work was simply more important any of that home stuff. ANNNNK!
I respected my wife in most other areas, but when it came to her emotional needs, they were unimportant. Why couldn't she simply recognize how important what I was doing was for the family. I deserved to be admired, Right? Well, it was important, but it certainly wasn't anymore important than what she was doing, or what she was asking of me. All the while I ignored her, she continued to bury her hurt and her needs. Eventually, she gave up trying. I eventually gave up on asking her for sex.
MM, I had mentioned in another post that I thought there were some respect issues with your marriage. While I don't want to plug my situation into yours, I do see some interesting similarities between your husband and me.
A few years ago, I would not have wanted my wife in my vehicle after a trip to the gym. She might get the seat wet. I have no doubt that I intimated that very idea to her, very clearly.
I still don't want my seat wet, but it is a hell of a lot less important to me now than my wife's self esteem! What an ass I was, and I didn't really know it. What I should have done was to let her know at every opportunity, that I think she is special and loved! What in the world would it have cost me to give her such a simple gift? Was the damn seat that important? Of course not.
Respect was missing. Well deserved respect was missing. You can be a tough, self assured woman or man, and you still have the right to expect a certain level of respect from your spouse. Not getting that HURTS - sometimes a lot. We are human after all.
Your husband comes home, probably thinking he has "done his part". It is true that he has done part of his part, just not all. On the other hand, you have other expectations, and rightly so, but he doesn't want yet one more thing to have to deal with. He doesn't realize the effort you have made to "shore him up", or the sheer bulk of crap you have dealt with in his absence.
Talk to him MM. Find out what he really thinks. You can't take on any more. You can't fix what is wrong with him. He has to step up and work on his part of the marriage.
What you can do is be ready to forgive him as he begins to address issues. He is going to need to feel appreciated. You can't expect him to understand relational issues to the depth that you do now. He is male, and it will likely take him a lot longer -BUT- he CAN get it. It is possible. He also needs to know that he can still be *manly*, and address emotional issues.
If he can start changing some small issues, then you will see areas that you need to adjust. i don't think that will be difficult at all for you.
You need a lot more than just sex from him. You need his approval and appreciation/admiration for all the stuff you do. You need your 5 hugs and neck nibbles a day. He needs to tell you how much he appreciates your contribution to the marriage. He needs to find it in his heart to tell you all this and believe it when he does tell you. Appreciating you needs has to become a daily routine for him. That includes recognition of your other emotional needs, such as sex.
You need to stop thinking about divorce and singles bars for a while. As a formerly angry highly sexed but frustrated man, I pretty much understand how you feel, but you are spinning your wheels thinking that is the answer. I am not saying that at some point you won't have to consider it, but I really do still think that the two of you have a great chance at licking this problem.
I am sorry this is all a bit loose and ill formed, MM. I am pretty tired tonight. I know what I am trying to tell you, but it isn't very cohesive. More later.
Oh, and sorry to be mushy, but you know I think very highly of you, and I know you will get through this.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
How can I explain the difference between my situation and yours? I understand your W's point of view and I understand your point of view, but I've never been in either of your shoes. I've never felt like an underappreciated SAHM. The problem isn't that my H doesn't respect me or what I do. The problem isn't that I don't respect my H. The problem is that he doesn't respect what he does or is capable of doing and therefore he treats me with disrespect.. He both depends on and resents the fact that I am generally more competent than him in both the jobs our society generally assigns to women AND the ones our society generally assigns to men. If you had a job opening and you were looking for a real "go-getter" and you interviewed my H and me for the position, you would hire me. I am much more confident, upbeat and 'cocky' than my H.
I know part of our problem is the fact that I am more "manly" in a lot of ways than my H. The stereotypical image of a woman who is a "ball buster" would be someone tough and b*tchy who is constantly yelling out orders at her poor meek little H and treating him with disrespect. I am not like that. I am constantly trying to "shore up" my H's male ego by being super-nice and supportive, but he sees my general competence as a competitive threat. This is why he is always picking on me. He senses my strength and feels the need to take me down a notch. This is also why he is nice to me when I act ditzy. The situation is so ridiculous that I often will do things like purposely lose at games or feign incompetence in certain areas.
If I were to explain the situation in the most simple biological terms, I would say that I am an Alpha female married to a Beta male. My H is a perfectly self-aware, intelligent person and he would absolutely agree with this statement. I was Alpha and he was Beta long before we met each other. We love each other dearly in some ways, but I'm just not sure if we were meant to be a mating couple. No matter how many beers I fetch or insults I tolerate, I will never be able to turn myself into a Beta female and any attempt on my part to turn my H into an Alpha male can only be counter-productive for obvious reasons. All I can do is stand proudly Alpha, refuse to be treated with disrespect, step back, let him stand on his own two feet and hope he can figure out how to be man enough to handle a woman like me.
I know I risk sounding arrogant by explaining my situation in this way. All I can say is that if you ever met us in person, you would know I am speaking the truth. This is why my mother says I am stronger than my H and this is why a former male boss of mine who knew my H quite well said to a friend of mine "What a waste. Why doesn't (H) stay home and take care of the kids?" when I turned down a promotion to a position of leadership and became a SAHM again for a while.
Part of the reason that I run my own business is that I can be secretly successful, but it sux that I can't share my feelings of achievement with my H without making him feel like he needs to suppress my exuberance. I know he has mixed feelings about the recent improvements I made to my appearance. He really could take me down a notch by telling me I looked unattractive because on some level I believed him. Now the best he can do is imply that I look "slutty' and since I don't care if I look "slutty" it doesn't have much effect on me.
Maybe it isn't his 'fault' at all. Maybe I am just not meant to be married. All I can say is that I feel much more free to be me when he isn't around. I miss all the little things that I love about him when he is away, but I also feel relieved, like a prisoner released from a chain gang or a maybe a witch escaped from the stake.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
MM, You are beginning to look at your past behavior and see that you have been self-defeating. Relationships are hard; we all make compromises and sacrifices and hope for a greater good. You are angry about betraying yourself, and this is a time when you can focus again on your needs. It really is an exciting time, once you forgive yourself for the self hurt...you yourself said in an eloquent post that we need to embrace the part of us that wasn't healthy because it served a function at the time.
You and I are both at the same point in our lives. My "baby" will be turning 10 next week, I achieved a modicum of success professionally and have cut back, I already turned the big 4-0, and I have time to think about me and my needs again. I like the term " mid life evaluation."
It's an emotional time, but you are on your way to making positive changes as you renegotiate your relationship. No more enabling hubby...continue to express your wants/needs clearly in a no-nonsense way, and watch his responses. He may kick and scream, but my bet is that he will grow up some.
I know that I am having a bit of a "midlife evaluation" as you so nicely put it.(Frankly, it really does feel like a crisis to me. )
Quote: It's an emotional time, but you are on your way to making positive changes as you renegotiate your relationship. No more enabling hubby...continue to express your wants/needs clearly in a no-nonsense way, and watch his responses. He may kick and scream, but my bet is that he will grow up some.
This is definitely my intention. I don't mean to convey that I have any plans to WAW or hit the singles bars any time soon.(Except for the fact that I am dead serious about my vow to get laid on my 40th bday ).)
I am actually hopeful that my H will do some growing up once he gets through all the kicking and screaming. 'Kicking and screaming" is a good way to describe my H's reaction to my stand. NOPkins is wrong in thinking that my H isn't in touch with his emotional side. He is VERY in touch with his emotional side, to the point of not recognizing that I might have some feelings too. He is just far too refined in his sensibilities to be able to relate to the brute desires of a hard-headed woman like me.
I also think his current job is really boosting his confidence and male ego and if that means he has to travel all the time, I am delighted with the trade-off.
What I am trying to convey is that I don't think there is a lot of room for compromise in my situation. Alpha-Mega-Mojo is back in town and FakeBeta-Enabler-Mojo is out the door. Whether my H wants to grow up and hang out with me or refuse to change and go looking for some functioning to borrow elsewhere is up to him. I love him but I can only encourage his personal growth, I can't do it for him.
It's funny that it took me so long to finally admit that part of the problem is that I am quite a "masculine" woman and my H is quite a "feminine" man in terms of behavior. I am generally comfortable with the fact, but my H is not. He wants to be more "manly" and therefore he tries to make me be more "feminine". This worked out O.K. for a while when I had babies to care for. The part of me that is most "feminine" is my maternal side. I love babies and I was happy to be a SAHM and indulge in some nesting behavior when they were little. I am actually quite grateful to my H that he was happy with this arrangement too. I would have been miserable if I had to put them in daycare.
I guess the reason I am so "masculine" in behavior generally is that I was the oldest daughter of a wonderful father who had no sons. I am a "natural" feminist (I think HDs wife is what I call a "literal feminist". She puts on a "cocky" by-the-book feminist pose to hide her basic insecurity). I have never been intimidated by men in any way. If you have ever read that wonderful book by Deborah Tanner on the difference between male and female speech patterns, you will understand what I mean when I tell you that I have a male speech pattern. My father loved nothing better than to debate an issue to death with his argumentative daughters.
When I was 15, I was sexually mature and I went out looking for sex the way a 18 year old boy might. This isn't really surprising when you consider that I had been reading the likes of Updike, Vonnegurt and Cosmopolitan magazine since I was 11 or 12. My need for EC in a sexual relationship is probably equivalent to that of the average man. I am strongly monogamous and I much prefer sex with EC, but I can enjoy it very much without too much EC. I can clearly picture myself at the age of 21 walking home in my little party dress after a hot, casual encounter with a Cheshire grin on my face.
I really like the fact that my H is sensitive and "in touch" with his feminine side in some ways. The fact that we are both kind of unisex makes us a good couple in some ways. (It might be interesting to note that my baby sister who is most like me in personality is bisexual. She is a law student at the University of Chicago and is currently in a long term relationship with a young man who used to be a woman.). Obviously, the unisex thing doesn't work for our sexual relationship. My sexual nature is masculine in terms of drive and low need for EC, but it is feminine in terms of the fact that I like to be f*cked by a strong masculine presence. My H is a strong masculine presence in bed, but otherwise his drive is more "feminine". It's not very high and he probably needs more EC than he cares to admit.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I wasn't trying to plug you into my relationship. My wife is a very strong woman as well. Last time she took one of the online language analysis tests that supposedly determine if you are male or female, she scored 83% male :-) That still makes us chuckle.
I think I do understand your relationship better now.
Your husband may indeed be in touch with his emotions, if so, then he is selfish.
Is he aware that he treats you with disrespect? Does he acknowledge your strengths? Have you discussed this with him, and if so, what was the approach both of you decided on in order to fix the problem?
MM. The first thing you have to decide is if you are willing to work on your marriage. You keep bringing up reasons why you might not want to stay married. I understand you are angry at your spouse.
The issue is not just sex. You are in a sex starved state because of your relationship.
You have to decide if you are going to directly address the issues you have brought up here, with your husband. You have to decide how much grace you are going to have for him while he gets used to the idea of change. You have to be willing to take even more crap than you already have if and when he is willing to work with you. You WILL have some changes to make yourself.
The above are all normal and expected items that trail along with change in a relationship. If you are expecting a spiritual, born again type experience to magically fix your relationship, or any past or future one, it isn't going to happen (and I don't think you think that).
There is absolutely nothing wrong with you being strong, or being strong and still wanting a more dominant male in your bed.
You had previously mentioned that your husband was tired of discussions. I don't know how you are going to do it, but you will have to discuss your relationship with him until he understands. You need to listen to him as well (I know you probably already do that).
If you decide to work on this with your husband, then expect some fallout. I think that the two of you owe each other a damn good try at working through this.
I will tell you something I have learned. It is so obvious, that it hurts, but I didn't see it. The one wrong thing that is hardest to change in a relationship, is the very thing that must be changed in order to save it.
Please let me know what you think.
-NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I think there are two factors that are currently making me "keep bringing up reasons that I might not want to stay married". The first factor is the fact that I feel so much better about myself now. Severely depressed people are more likely to commit suicide right after they go on anti-depressants because they were so depressed unmedicated they didn't even have enough initiative to pick up the gun or swallow the pills. Perhaps I've "differentiated" just enough that I now feel like I have enough energy to leave my marriage, but maybe not enough yet to actually see my way through to real success. The second factor is that everybody in my RL who is even semi-aware of my situation is telling me to get a divorce.
Quote: Your husband may indeed be in touch with his emotions, if so, then he is selfish.
He is either selfish or depressed or both. The incident that stands out most clearly to me in this regard is his behavior at the time of my father's death. I was in the first shock of grief trying to plan his memorial service with my sisters. Instead of being supportive my H kept griping at me about how my sisters were being too bossy. I absolutely couldn't handle dealing with his complaints at the time and I just sat on the sofa and began to cry. He made no effort to comfort me and just walked away. When I confronted him about it later, he said "You can't look to me for support. I've got nothing to give.".
Quote: Is he aware that he treats you with disrespect? Does he acknowledge your strengths? Have you discussed this with him, and if so, what was the approach both of you decided on in order to fix the problem?
I have frequently pointed out to him the ways in which he treats me with disrespect. I almost think that he doesn't understand how rude he is being. This may be because his father treated his mother with complete disrespect and so he thinks a modicum of disrespect is alright. He does acknowledge my strengths. In fact, I think that is one of the reasons why he doesn't treat me better. He thinks I'm strong enough to take whatever he cares to dish out or burden me with. I've probably contributed to this with my tendency to smile through gritted teeth.
Quote: You had previously mentioned that your husband was tired of discussions. I don't know how you are going to do it, but you will have to discuss your relationship with him until he understands. You need to listen to him as well (I know you probably already do that).
The last time I told him we needed to discuss something, he turned to the children and said "I'm in trouble.". This is the attitude he brings to our "discussions". I am the overbearing headmistress and he is the squirmy schoolboy. I know I've been too much the indulgent parent in my relationship with my H over the years, but I don't know how to avoid being cast as the strict parent when I take a tough stand. I don't want to be his parent at all. I can't tell you how much I regret bringing up the issue of porn early on in our "discussions". I fear he is thinking that my stand is "Be a good boy and have sex with me instead of MBing and I won't abandon you.". This is why he does juvenile things like turning his cell phone off all day. He is an intelligent man. He knows that he is behaving like an adolescent and will even admit it when our discussions manage to achieve an adult level.
At this point, I almost think the best thing I can do is try to stop taking care of him. He will experience this as a withdrawal of my love and will probably "kick and scream" but it is probably the only way he will be able to 'differentiate" enough to meet me as an equal in our relationship. I was thinking about why I have such a hard time keeping myself from being his nursemaid and I realized that it is hard for me to determine just how much "service" I owe him because he currently makes more money than me. I think that I may have to do whatever is necessary to get us on an equitable plane financially and hire a cleaning service and feed the kids pizza for a while. Like the weight loss, this is something that really shouldn't be necessary, but it will help me to be able to maintain a stronger stand. (I should note at this point that the last time I made as much money as him and did less to take care of him, he had an EA he felt compelled to tell me about. It's quite possible he will do something like this again in order to get my attention.).
I know that it might seem like my current sexy mode of dressing and fun seeking behavior is a way for me to "act out" sexually and get other-validation. I will admit that there is a bit of truth to this, but I think the main reason why I do this is it helps me to be less like my H's mother. The next time he feels tempted to tauntingly call me "Mom" just because I suggested that maybe he ought to make a more mature or less rude choice in his behavior, he might hesitate if 'Mom" is wearing hipsters and a halter and heading out the door to a Pixies concert in downtown Detroit.
Quote: I will tell you something I have learned. It is so obvious, that it hurts, but I didn't see it. The one wrong thing that is hardest to change in a relationship, is the very thing that must be changed in order to save
I'm sure I agree with you, but I am still not sure how to proceed. Do you think I might be right in thinking that I treat my H too much like a spoiled oldest child rather than an equal in our relationship? Could this be the "wrong" thing I need to change? Do you think my plan to just try to stop acting like his mother is good? It does seem like a "hard thing" to do to me because I know there is a good chance that my H will want to go find another "Mom" rather than grow up himself. It is entirely possible that the reason that my H told me "Our relationship is the most important thing in my life." is that he is far too dependent on me emotionally. This is why I hesitate to give him a "gold star" for good behavior. He needs to figure out that the reason why he needs to treat me with respect is that he will then have more respect for himself. I think that is what you figured out for yourself in your relationship. I think your wife is a lucky woman.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I have had another very trying day. I have read your post, but I wanted to wait until Sunday to reply, so I could give it my full attention.
Al the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
I am still eagerly awaiting your response, but I think I've had a real breakthrough. I think I understand what I was doing 'wrong" and why PM wasn't working for me in the way I had interpreted it.
As I somewhat indicated in my last posts here and on HM's thread, I was just interpreting PM technique as a way to turn myself from being an ineffective parent to my H into a more effective parent. I was reading PM as a version of the "Tough Love" approach people sometimes use with out of control children. This worked to a certain extent, but it just didn't feel "right" because I was still treating my H like a child.
Suddenly, it is crystal clear to me that this is what I've been doing ever since we first married. To give myself some credit, the reason why I did this is we had children right away and I had to put their interests first. Since my H wasn't inclined to take initiative, I felt I had to start making important decisions for the good of the children. So I became Captain Mommy and I treated my H like an eldest child who was old enough to go out and work and help support the family. I knew he was making an important contribution, so I rewarded him by making him the child who I spoiled. This has become quite obvious as my actual children mature. I do more caretaking for my H than I do for my children. I have a much 'healthier' laid back parenting style with them. For instance, I expect my teenage children to be able to prepare themselves a meal if I'm not at home or I am too busy. If they whine, I tell them that they will have to be able to cook for themselves someday and it's an important skill they should learn. My H claims that he is incapable of cooking for various reasons and so I always prepare meals for him.
It isn't a one-way street. To a large extent, the reason I treat my H like a child is that he has a tendency to act like one. My MIL is the stereotypical smothering mother and my H was her favorite child. She actually tried to take my H out shopping to buy him pants when he was in his late 30's! My H thinks that he deserves to be coddled and spoiled and he feels unloved when he isn't. On the other hand, he doesn't respect himself when he goes too far in his childish behavior and so he sometimes treats me poorly because I treat him well.
So the solution I believe is to read PM a bit differently and interpret "differentiation" for myself in my relationship as "stop acting like a mother and treating your H like a child" not as " be a calmer less reactive mother who expects her husband/child to behave".
Okay, so much for the theory, on to the practice. Last night my H called and starting giving me one of his endless bad day at work litanies. I asked myself "How would I react to this if I try not to be maternal?". This is tough because I have a tendency to be maternal in a lot of my relationships. People ask me for advice much more frequently than I ask for advice myself.( Participating in this board is a real breakthrough for me. I have a VERY hard time asking for help from others.) I can't explain exactly what I did differently in responding to my H's litany, but I just kept telling myself "Don't respond like a mom.". I guess it worked because my H said "So how did your day go?". This might not seem like a big deal, but he rarely interests himself in my activities. I didn't have a very exciting day, so I started telling him about a contest I entered at my gym. He interrupted me and basically told me that he was bored with what I was telling him. I tried to do the opposite of what a mom would do, so I said light-heartedly "Come on. That wasn't half as boring as your daily work report.". He laughed, but I could tell that I had knocked him a bit off balance. We ended the convo on a light friendly note.
An hour later, he called me back and wanted to have phone sex. It was quite a hot encounter and he brought more passion to his initiation than usual. I think I am on the right track.
My sich is probably just a variation on the old "Madonna/Whore" theme. My H wants me to show my love by spoiling him like his mother, but he is more sexually attracted to the "I don't give a f*ck" side of my personality. Every piece of evidence I can dredge up from memory points to the truth of this. In order to get laid, I just have to act like the exact opposite of my MIL. This will be pretty easy because I am not naturally prudish or smothering. The tricky part will be standing firm while my H throws temper tantrums in order to get me to start spoiling him again. I have to "differentiate" until I am able to treat him more like an adult.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I fully expect that my H will do something today that will be the equivalent of turning off his cell phone. I didn't treat him like a child last night, so he will probably "act out" in order to get some "maternal" attention.
I have to say it's much better to be thinking about my relationship rather than reacting to it. Perhaps this is another way to "differentiate".
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
It has really helped me in my relationship with my LDH. Some of the stuff in this post really seems like it might help give you a perspective that you may not have had in awhile (or ever). I've come to realize some of my part in our relationship problems this way. Not to say that he doesn't have is own part! To the contrary! But it does help me focus on myself and how I am contributing to the distance or closeness in our relationship.
) 
