Got up with the kids this morning, fed them breakfast, cleaned up, then I thought I'd go 'snuggle' for a bit with H in bed.
Managed to get the kids out, and climbed in. (one 'cultural' note: we use 'comforters' here, rather than tucking sheets in, and we each have our own. Not very romantic, but warm in the winter )
H was in a nice mood, didn't mind when I put my hand on his arm. So, I got bold. 'I've enjoyed that you've been in such a good mood lately!'
Little pleasant grunt from H.
'I would like it if you would touch me and be affectionate more often.' H smiles, so I sat up a little.
'I would probably be a lot more pleasant to deal with if you did'
Guess I must have leaned in a little, 'cause H said 'Please don't push me( it was obvious he meant this literally, not as in what I was saying was making him uncomfortable)'
me ' I didn't realize I was pushing. To me, it feels like you're pushing me away when you say that, and I feel sad.'
No answer, but H was quiet for a while, as though he was thinking. I think this went pretty well. I didn't want to bring too much up, maybe that's the coward in me, but I also think H would have become defensive, and it wouldn't have gone as well. I should follow up again, so he knows I'm serious.
Later, I went downstairs to pick up some laundry I had folded, and H was sitting on the coach reading. I remembered one thing I needed him to do, so I asked him about it.
H 'Please don't stand there like that, it makes me uncomfortable' (this is very common, he doesn't like me to be higher than he is, or to stand behind, or too close to him when we talk).
I sit down and ask again. I have to go over the thing a few times so that he understands(and I guess I'm getting a little annoyed and my tone goes up) and then S4b starts jumping in. H asks him to stop. S4b continues, so I ask him to stop as well.
H 'Why to you need to control everything?'
Me 'What do you mean?'
H 'First you come and stand there, then you raise your voice, now you have to say the same thing to S4b that I just did. Don't you trust me?'
Me ' Sorry, that's not at all what I meant...'
There was another conversation later on, where H asked my opinion about something (not really important what), and preceded it by asking me to listen to the end. So he told me what he wanted to say, and when he had stopped, I gave my opinion, then asked him a question.
H 'see, I knew you wouldn't wait 'till I was finished'
Me 'But you had stopped speaking, and you only got mad after I asked the question'
H ' Now I don't remember what I was going to say' and he huffed off downstairs.
So I left him alone for a while, then when back downstairs, and explained that I would listen if he would tell me again what he had said. This time I had him tell me when he was done (we use this often. It may be a cultural thing, as Finns do have a slower conversational pace, but H is particularly 'slow' in this regard). This time, we were able, finally, to finish the conversation. It did take a while to get him to understand my POV (he said he already 'knew' what I was thinking - very different than what I was actually thinking)
These are very typical convos for us, and I'm always left drained...I'm able to keep my cool pretty well, and I try hard to listen, and stay calm when I explain, but it's as though he's already had the conversation in his head, and is afraid to have it out loud, 'cause I'll disagree with him. After this one, I went upstairs, and almost broke down. I know it drained H as well, 'cause he was pretty short with the kids for the rest of the afternoon.
I know part of the reason our convos about anything are this strained, is that I did let my resentment get the best of me for a while, and especially when the kids were very little, and I was dealing with severe sleep deprivation, I didn't keep my cool very well, and wasn't all that pleasant to talk to. I've been working on this now for more than a year, and at least now we can almost discuss things, but I wonder if we'll ever get to the point were H will be a little less defensive? Anything I can do to help him along?
These kind of strained convos are indicative of emotional fusion. The more you are able to talk and respond in a way that is honest and forthright rather than talking and responding in a way that you think your H would appreciate or in a defensive manner, the better your communication will be and the more differentiated you will be. Of course, communicating in this way takes a lot of confidence and courage and though I think My H and I have greatly improved our level of communication recently, I know I still have a long way to go because I am a big chicken when it comes to any sort of confrontation. I think getting angry(you?) or cold(your H) during a conversation is just another way of showing fear, the equivalent of my tendency to put on a fake happy face or cry.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Wise, MM is - good analysis. There's a section of PM at about page 110 on self-validated intimacy vs. other-validated intimacy. It seems that you and H (oh, believe me... my W and I have it too) are looking to each other for validation of your POV and sitch. This can be one of the most difficult issues to deal with in the beginning. Unfortunately, when there are children involved and conversations get interrupted, you sometimes have to start over.
I do hope that your H sees your efforts and doesn't feel intimidated by you. Also, you don't have to make major changes overnight... things should progress slowly. Just remember, there are lots of people here who have "been there, done that." I am always learning from them.
Heap, I think you need to start really pulling out the big guns, lol.
When communicating your needs with H, I would stop all the hinting and pussyfooting around.
I used to do this and it NEVER got me what I wanted. I found it so sadistic of him that he knew what I was getting at but would pretend that he didn't. In fact, I still think this way, HOWEVER there is an LD lady poster here named Corri who presented a totally different viewpoint for me to consider and it really changed the way I approach communication with H.
Basically she said that the hints are a passive aggressive way of getting what you want. Instead of treating the other person with respect and giving them the option of saying Yes or No, you are taking that away from them. In any of us, it would generate a response of "oh screw you" if our spouses were hinting instead of clearly and compassionately stating their needs. Her posts are much more articulate in explaining this, btw! Think of it this way: If H was hinting that he wanted a cleaner house, what would your first reaction be? Probably anger or frustration. Your H sounds like his first reaction (in order to cover up the anger/frustration) is to laugh it off and in effect invalidate what you are saying.
So instead of the "If you would ML to me more often..." statements, how do you think he would react to a REAL conversation in which you laid it all out and said, "I am really not happy with the level of physical intimacy we have going on. What would you be willing to do to work with me on this?"
I admit that this second approach takes a bunch more balls to really pull this off, but that is the road to truly resolving it. The sly comments will get you nowhere except frustrated, while he sits there and eats his candy.
Also, paradoxically, I could hint til the cows came home and it wasn't until I actually came out and said the words I NEED MORE SEX that H really got it. Until that moment he honestly did not get that I was really serious and needed more than he was giving.
Sometimes I think the cultural "I am a man and therefore have the higher sex drive" is so ingrained that nothing but directly blowing that statement out of the water will work.
Thanks guys. I'd have freely admitted the fear a long time ago, and I knew that this was a problem, but I didn't really know why, and couldn't find the motivation for changing it (does that make sense?)
I've finally been able to start reading PM, so I am getting more sense of what's going on.
HP, thanks for saying it straight out. Somehow when you 'said' that, I finally saw the need for me to be straightforward; funny, before I felt that I was doing a 'good thing' in keeping the peace, even though I knew it was getting nowhere. Doesn't feel very good, but it does finally feel like a change.
Well, I did it last night. Talk that is. I don't remember the exact words, but it went something like this:
H was downstairs reading when I read HP's post, and had my epiphany. So I 'psyched' myself up, then went down to talk.
I sat on the coach, and was surprised that H didn't ask me to leave, actually moved his foot over to touch my leg.
Me 'Are you in a place (in the book) where you can stop for a while?'
H (flips through the pages) 'No, not really....why, do you have something to say?' (who is this man that replaced my H????)
Me 'I'm not very happy with the fact that we've only ML once in the past 7 yrs'
H his little laugh, 'Is that supposed to be funny?'
Me 'No, I don't think it's very funny...I appreciate that you've been friendly these past few weeks, but I would like to become more intimate with you again'
I think H laughed a little more, 'I should go back to reading'
Me 'No, you let me start, this isn't very easy for me either. I know that it would be too much to ask that we ML tomorrow, but I would like to start spending more time with you. Could we possibly once or twice a week go to bed early and just spend time talking, or holding each other, and make a point of hugging and kissing when we leave/come home from work?'
H sort of laughs, wriggles like a 4 yr old, says he's got lots to do
Me 'You can wait for a little. Not ML, and having my affection pushed away builds up a lot of resentment in me, which I tend to take out on you. I want to do this so that I can start liking you again'
H 'Are you done? Why do you have to push me'
Me 'I'd like to know how you feel' (lots of squirming from H) 'I know it's a lot for you to think about, but can we talk again in a couple of days, say Wed., or Fri (I'm gone all day Thurs)?'
H 'I don't know...I'll have to think about it...I'm not sure'
Me 'I'm, we're only 40, I don't want to spend the rest of my life in a celibate marriage (actually, I think that line came earlier on, but you get the drift)
silence for a while...
H 'Can I ask you one thing?' 'Can you try not to be so confrontational? Like yesterday, and last week, when I asked you something innocent and you turned them into a big fight'
I almost blew it here, in my view, neither of these things were very innocent...and my 'fighting' to me was stating my POV, but I caught myself, since I was so pleased that this had gone this well, and realized he might see things a little differently than I do...
Me 'I'll try'
H 'Ok then, get out of here'
I went upstairs for a while, later on we watched some TV together. In an (un??)related statement, H says 'I've decided that this new arrangement here is no good (couch in front of TV rather than two chairs)'
Me 'Why?' H starts to reach over to move my foot, but stops himself - silence.
I would never have believed a week ago that we could have had this kind of convo, let alone that it would have gone this well, without H huffing off and me getting angry. So, I'll pat myself on the back
Somehow though, I suspect that was the easy part. For starts, I have to hold him to getting back to me...
Wow, congrats heap! That sounds promising... a good start, for sure. Your H is going to have to get used to talking with you like this. I sense that he doesn't like "his world" rocked too much.
I think that giving him these "advanced warnings" is good... it gives him time to think about what you've said without having to respond immediately. Then, when you do get around to Wednesday or Friday, he'll have something to say. See how he acts on Wed & Fri. I hope that he doesn't make excuses to avoid you now that you've told him which days you'll be expecting to talk.
I agree Mom, I think you did good. I'll be VERY interested to see what happens later in the week. I'm betting that he'll just try to pretend that the convo never happened. I'm also betting that you won't let him get away with that.
Quote: I would never have believed a week ago that we could have had this kind of convo, let alone that it would have gone this well, without H huffing off and me getting angry. So, I'll pat myself on the back
You deserve a pat on the back, because you were courageous and "held on to yourself". If I can make one suggestion, I would tell you to not concern yourself right now with your H's reaction to your statements. He has to deal with his reactions himself. In Schnarch-Speak, you need to put him in the crucible, but he needs to find his way out.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Sounds great, heapmom. Don't let him weasel out of this. His reactions are just so weird, child-like. You are courageous and strong...keep the pressure on!
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