My W and I went to a new C today and wow...we both got a great vibe from her. My W was extremely irritated about going today and claimed "I'm just doing for you". By the end of the session, the C asked my W "would you like to come back?" And my W replied "yes" to my surprise. I reacted and the C said..."why are you surprised?"...I said "because she can't stand this stuff". C said "you're W just did a great job at making a decision for herself and you weren't comfortable the reaction so you tried to push her back down...you are the Schnarch superfan, does this pattern remind you of anything in PM?". Holy Crap!!!! Now THATS the kind of C I've been looking for...one who can turn my own B.S. right back on me.
This was exactly why I was motivated to see a new C...to validate my current "thinking" to make certain that I wasn't doing a major mind-f on myself. Last week's episode made me realize that maybe I was "missing" a piece of the puzzle. I shared this with her and she said that my thinking is "ok" and that I seem to understand the principles of PM correctly but that my approach is too "isolationist". Of course she's not going say "you don't need me", but I got the sense that *some* things need to be mediated by a pro and I was happy to see how fast things were going within one session.
In general, it was very exciting to see someone with the brains and the balls to run a session like I imagine Schnarch doing. She picked up on my W's tentativeness to disclose and hit her with a couple of "crucible" questions to get a better "read" on her. She challenged me with a few things as well. She had us each make appointments for individual sessions and yes, it's going to cost some $$$$. Folks, if a C refuses to work with managed plans (like EAP plans etc), then chances are, they have a lot confidence in their abilities and reputation.
She looked at our "roles" and how we have defined one another, and ourselves within those. She attributed my W's lack of desire stemming from the fact that I defined my role as a "money-maker-father" which sleeping with was "incestuous". And then she did the same thing with my W. She even mentioned a "whore-like" relationship to me but it came and went so fast, that I didn't understand it.
Anyway, I'm hesitant to get too excited about this because she could also be a master saleswoman who knows that I'm a Schnarch fan and played to it. But heck, my we liked her non-nonsense, no rambling, stay-focused approach.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Cool, good to hear it Atl! Is there a reason why you dragged your W to a C again? Did it really matter that she was there if PM tells ya to work on yourself first?
The reason I ask is... I have been debating whether or not to "force" my W to go to a C. Sometimes, I ask myself why I bother to even consider it... and other times, I think it's a good idea. Knowing how my W sees me really scared me, though. If she comes up with some BS that I don't have a quick answer for in front of the C, I'm screwed!!
Anyways, I hope things keep getting better at the C for you.
I would be there myself if I thought I could afford it right now. But at about $100/hour, it might be pretty darned expensive. The positives I think that can come out of this is to get a nutral third party involved. Us guys can tell them over and over about the need for sex, and they won't HEAR us. But to have someone else acknowledge that this can be important might do a lot to get them to thinking about it. It might also open up the discussions a little better.
Quote: She looked at our "roles" and how we have defined one another, and ourselves within those. She attributed my W's lack of desire stemming from the fact that I defined my role as a "money-maker-father" which sleeping with was "incestuous". And then she did the same thing with my W. She even mentioned a "whore-like" relationship to me but it came and went so fast, that I didn't understand it.
She probably meant that since your wife doesn't work and therefore depends on you for monetary support, your wife kind of sees you as her employer. So your wife might be interpreting your stand on the matter as "F*ck me or you're fired.". Therefore she feels like a whore if she has sex with you in order to avoid being fired and suffer a financial loss.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
She probably meant that since your wife doesn't work and therefore depends on you for monetary support, your wife kind of sees you as her employer. So your wife might be interpreting your stand on the matter as "F*ck me or you're fired.". Therefore she feels like a whore if she has sex with you in order to avoid being fired and suffer a financial loss.
Thanks. That's exactly what she said and meant. She mentioned that my W probably feels like an employee...now I get what she was saying. My W felt like the C was giving her the "are you freakin' nuts for putting up with this crap?" look. This is going to be pretty interesting. I'm ready for anything.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Is there a reason why you dragged your W to a C again?
Yes. Last week, I was suffering so much anxiety as my EC dried up that I couldn't get aroused during a session of her manually doing me. It took a drawn out, painful conversation to get me reconnected enough to enjoy being physical. Then Corri nailed it when she said that I had a sort of meltdown. Corri and NOP both acknowledged that the "crappy responses" by my W have challenged my ability to confidently initiate any loving gestures. Then Corri whacked me across the head with the realization that I was dealing with a major fear of rejection. So I considered getting individual therapy and I still might. But I also was a little bit confused because I thought I understood PM really well and was implementing really well but last weeks episode made me question my progress. So I wanted to validate my thoughts against an expert's thoughts.
As far as "dragging", I didn't. I said "I would love to have you go...you don't have to, but it might help me figure some things out". Even when the session started, I was apologizing for bringing in W by saying stuff like "ya...I probably just need individual therapy...afterall, I should be working on me". The C gave me crap about this by saying that my "issues" affect the marital system as a whole and that it is a really good thing to have her here.
Now, if this C acted like our last one, it would have been a different story. I would have been apologizing after the session instead scratching my head over the fact that my W wants to go back.
Secondly, (I didn't plan this) it's really nice to have a couple hours a week to get "deep". On the way home, I asked my W if I should get a vasectomy.
Quote:
Did it really matter that she was there if PM tells ya to work on yourself first?
The C made an interesting point when she said that "I was maybe isolating myself too much in the process" of differentiation. What was really cool was that the C controlled the discussion to prevent us from wasting time. She asked the right questions and seemed to drill into the issues immediately.
Quote:
Sometimes, I ask myself why I bother to even consider it... and other times, I think it's a good idea. Knowing how my W sees me really scared me, though. If she comes up with some BS that I don't have a quick answer for in front of the C, I'm screwed!!
It seems to be a part of "toolkit". PM is very good up to a point where you can't completely tackle your own issues on your own. That's what I've discovered. I could have gone to individual counseling for a year but not develop tools to help my understanding of my role in the marital system.
Regarding your concern over "quick thinking". You shouldn't worry about it unless you plan on lying. A good C won't put you in a place where you would hurt yourself. And if you say something wrong, the counselor will probably watching the non-verbals of your spouse and learn more about your spouse in the process. I saw this happen today...she was examining our non-verbals as the other person talked...very cool process. But the problem I see is this...you might get a crappy counselor who doesn't know how to do this. My last one was terrible and voyeuristic. She set me up to get in trouble after the session by asking me what I thought my W's issues were. I just didn't know what to look for in my first counselor. I'm not sure if I can offer any advice other than asking about their approach on the phone and asking what they think of Schnarch. I'd ask for someone who is "aggressive" and "no-b.s.". Today mine had some tough "boundary talk" with us regarding when we can call her etc. It was impressive. I think Cs who are on EAP/ managed healthcare plans are hit or miss and the ones who say "I don't work with insurance companies directly but will give you the paper work to file" are probably the best. IMHO.
BTW. This C is $125/hr. Ouch!!!! I did get approval to get 70% reimbursement from my insurance company though...so it's about $40 a session. I'll keep you folks updated. My next appointment is Mon and it's an individual session.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: Regarding your concern over "quick thinking". You shouldn't worry about it unless you plan on lying. A good C won't put you in a place where you would hurt yourself. And if you say something wrong, the counselor will probably watching the non-verbals of your spouse and learn more about your spouse in the process. I saw this happen today...she was examining our non-verbals as the other person talked...very cool process. But the problem I see is this...you might get a crappy counselor who doesn't know how to do this. My last one was terrible and voyeuristic. She set me up to get in trouble after the session by asking me what I thought my W's issues were. I just didn't know what to look for in my first counselor.
Yeah, well, lying is just a defense mechanism, right? My W could lie at the C, and I'd never know it. I guess I could too, although I wouldn't on purpose. Our last C (April 2004) was horrible with his "reading" the non-verbals. We never went back after the EAP "3 sessions for free" were over. That one bad experience is making me hesitate now.
I will have to call around and ask if any of them have heard of Schnarch (my personal psychologist had NEVER heard of Schnarch or his books - she hadn't heard of Michele or the SSM book either). I like the "no BS" policy, and I think that's what my W and I need as well.
Quote: Knowing how my W sees me really scared me, though. If she comes up with some BS that I don't have a quick answer for in front of the C, I'm screwed!!
As AtlDave said, that's a pretty good rationalization. Reality-check: why would you be more afraid of being confronted by your wife in front of a counselor than in your home?
Quote: As AtlDave said, that's a pretty good rationalization. Reality-check: why would you be more afraid of being confronted by your wife in front of a counselor than in your home?
My W, confront me? Ha... I think she's scared to do that now. What is that old adage: don't ask the questions if you don't really want the answers?
I want to work out the issues... even if that's more painful in the beginning than either of us wants it to be. It seems that I get nowhere fast when I bring things up at home. In the "neutral third party" location of a C office, at least we'd have to talk for 45 minutes. We'd also have scheduled weekly/monthly sessions to force us to deal with things. Both my W and I are master avoiders of conflict, ya see.
