Back to my big question. What would anyone think about me having a talk with my W where I say something like the following....
M: "Hey, I was thinking about something from our convo the other night. You had mentioned how you go into a 'panic' on Wed and Sat when you realize that the deadline is approaching etc. You also said that you feel like my grumpiness when you don't meet my frequency is essentially the same as me 'forcing' you to ML 2x a week. So I have an idea....Why don't we drop the 2x week thing and lets let it flow more naturally?"
Variation 1. M: "I'll initiate and you can either engage me or reject in the way I described where you humbly acknowledge my request and commit to another time."
Variation 2. M: "I'll just chill and give you space for a while. See how things go. I would love to see what your natural frequency is."
Any other ideas?
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Quote: M: "Hey, I was thinking about something from our convo the other night. You had mentioned how you go into a 'panic' on Wed and Sat when you realize that the deadline is approaching etc. You also said that you feel like my grumpiness when you don't meet my frequency is essentially the same as me 'forcing' you to ML 2x a week. So I have an idea....Why don't we drop the 2x week thing and lets let it flow more naturally?"
A schedule seems very unsexy. I can see why you have a schedule: you don't have faith about letting things happen spontaneously, you don't want to harass her by asking every night, you want to establish boundaries, etc. You can tell her that the you are going to ask to make love some time during the week and she only gets to reject you twice. Boy, that doesn't seem very sexy either, but at least it will give your wife more freedom to choose while allowing you to maintain your expressed desire to make love 2x/wk.
It's important to tell her why you want a schedule, that your afraid that without a schedule, you would hardly ever make love. That if it happened spontaneously at approximately an appropriate frequency, say 7-12x/mo, you would stop keeping score and you could both relax and have fun.
And talk about unsexy, the fact that she "goes into a panic" must make you feel like making love to her is just a sacrifice she is making to you. I think you need to put her on the hot seat about this. First, thank her profusely for making love to you and showing her commitment to your marriage. Then ask her why she is doing it. Is she doing it out of love for you? What does she get out of it for herself? Is she doing out of guilt, or fear, or to shut you up? She needs to examine her own feelings on this, and all you can do is ask her about it and listen.
Tony
"If we will be quiet and ready enough, we shall find compensation in every disappointment." Henry David Thoreau
Here is what I see as potential pitfalls for your new plans. Your current 2x a week is obviously giving your wife a two choice dilemma. Either she has sex with you twice a week or she has to tolerate your crabbiness.
Quote: Variation 1. M: "I'll initiate and you can either engage me or reject in the way I described where you humbly acknowledge my request and commit to another time."
...or what? She will have to tolerate you being crabby for another reason? What is her second choice?
Quote: Variation 2. M: "I'll just chill and give you space for a while. See how things go. I would love to see what your natural frequency is."
Is this true? Would you love to see that her "natural" frequency is once a month? There has got to be a hidden "but" clause, such as "but if your natural frequency is less than desirable we'll have to come up with a new plan or I will get crabby.".
I don't think your problem is mainly due to the first half of the two choice dilemma you are presenting to your wife which is "I want you to have sex with me with a good attitude 2x a week.". I think your problem is mainly due to the second choice you're presenting which is "or you'll have to deal with me being crabby." You need to come up with a better second choice. IMO FWIW.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Tony, When we started this whole process, she passionately indicated that she didn't want to be on a "schedule" so I said ok, how about we shoot for the weekend and midweek, but at least a couple times a week? She agreed to it but it somehow turned into Sat and Wed. But for example, we last did it Thurs. According to this plan, Sun would be another "deadline" but I can guarantee that it won't be until next Tues or Wed, or worse, her period will start and it will be 1.5 weeks. I've been trying to explain that it's not a Sat-Wed thing...it's an interval thing...not letting more than 3 days go by without being together in a sexual way. I've even tried to explain that I don't require intercourse, just "erotic" time together. Her period is due in the next few days. I would love to teach her some ways to meet me half way during this time. I'll think about this. I desperately wish my feelings for her weren't associated with sex...it would make life so much simpler.
Quote:
Is she doing it out of love for you? What does she get out of it for herself? Is she doing out of guilt, or fear, or to shut you up? She needs to examine her own feelings on this, and all you can do is ask her about it and listen.
She's answered these for me but let me see if I can get it right...
1. I *do* believe she loves me and is committed to the marriage. It's very clear that this is why she is indulging me with all of this stuff.
2. She says she actually enjoys herself and it feels good to be with me but she doesn't always have a high level of horniness to the point of reaching an O.
3. She's doing it according to my frequency for a couple of speculative reasons. She doesn't want me to be crabby (actually my feeling is more bejiggety than crabby). But I've been getting better at "playing it cool" when the deadline passes. This is my issue. Then I think she's not defending her frequency because a. she doesn't know what it is and b. because she really feels like *she* SHOULD want to ML 2x weeks.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Your current 2x a week is obviously giving your wife a two choice dilemma. Either she has sex with you twice a week or she has to tolerate your crabbiness.
That's exactly what she told me...almost verbatim. She said "I only have 2 choices...ML or deal with you being grumpy". I guess I need to have faith in the PM two choice dilemma. I briefly (and quietly) took her response as an indication that I'm executing PM perfectly but then a part of me wanted to help her not feel that way. I think you are right Mojo, I just need to stick to the plan.
Quote:
Is this true? Would you love to see that her "natural" frequency is once a month?
Hell no!!!!
Quote:
There has got to be a hidden "but" clause, such as "but if your natural frequency is less than desirable we'll have to come up with a new plan or I will get crabby.".
Mojo, this has been the topic of discussions a lot lately. She may see me as crabby but I've been trying to tell her that my behavior is due to the fact that I'm not feeling an EC to her...that lack of sex makes her less desirable and attractive to me. I would love to know what other options there are. Do I stop watching TV with her or something? It's really hard act happy, loving, supportive while in this state of lost EC. I can't "ignore" her...she's learned to deal with this over the past 10 years. I don't know what my options are. It all seems so "negative" and makes sexually engaging her seem weird. I'm really confused....or maybe just "fused".
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
You know I really feel like I'm in the same kind of boat as you, Dave. I'm not sure what the answer is either. Is it really more differentiated to just feel somewhat annoyed and unattracted to our spouses than to feel very sad or resentful or cold. I am trying to come up with a way I can transcend the fusion rather than just keep it under control. I think it calls for a complete paradigm shift, but I can't get my mind around it. I think I need to change my way of thinking about my relationship not just change my way of reacting within it. I guess I think you need to do the same, but that's about as far as I've been able to take this line of reasoning.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Your current 2x a week is obviously giving your wife a two choice dilemma. Either she has sex with you twice a week or she has to tolerate your crabbiness.
That's exactly what she told me...almost verbatim. She said "I only have 2 choices...ML or deal with you being grumpy". I guess I need to have faith in the PM two choice dilemma.
Well, your W hasn't exactly put it in terms of her own integrity. You don't want her to be motivated ultimately by your being grumpy. (Well, you may enjoy that part of her discomfort, but Schnach would say it's normal marital sadism.) Hopefully, she'll eventually see her dilemma as addressing her own anxieties about sex or knowing that she's not meeting you even halfway.
You don't want her to be motivated ultimately by your being grumpy.
That's something I'm struggling with and need to work through. I think it may be the cause of my lack of desire when she DOES come to the bedroom with me. I feel that dropping the 2x would make our time together more "real". While I've made the metaphor that it would be like be "letting go" of child learning to walk, the reality is that it's me gaining the courage to let go of the handrail as *I* learn to walk. The truth is that I will probably lose my EC with her as a weeks slip by. I will also have to fight the urge to revert to my Marriage 1.0 posture but I think I can do it. I like the version of myself that is more involved with the family. I like giving consideration to my W before myself. I like not being such a selfish bastard. Maybe the release of my "hold" on this process is the final gift of selflessness. I will simply have to work on my emotions during that time and learn to deal with it alone. I don't know for sure, but my heart tells me to have faith in my W.
Is it obvious that I'm waffling back and forth on this decision? NOPKins, are your there? I need your insight on this idea. But something tells me that I'm going to "let it go" tonight. I'll report back later.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I just had a 20 minute talk with W. I told her that I'm no longer going to hold her to the 2x frequency nor anything that looks like a "process". AM I NUCKIN' FUTS? Read on....
Today, I took my D6 to the mountain bike trail and instead of riding with her, I walked along her side and made a point to pay attention to the subtle aspects of "fear", "motivation" and "encouragement". Her independence was inspiring. She pushed herself to ride through challenging sections like shallow creek crossings and roots. She asked me to push her up the technical climbs so she could steer and choose her own line. In extreme sections (like log and rock climbs), she wanted me to pull her (using her handlebars) so she could "feel" the sensations of riding while in safe hands of dad. I let her control 100% of the ride, the breaks, and even the distance which turned out to be 6 mi...the entire distance of the trail. But the most interesting thing was when she would reach a section that she was scared of (that I knew she could ride), I didn't give her any pep talks or say anything, I did the opposite and walked ahead of her. Occasionally, I would sneak a peak at her working through her fear before she would push off and ride through it with a huge smile on her face. I could have stood next to her and said "come on...you're awesome...you can do it..you've done it before" BUT I learned from a previous outing that this isn't "encouragement" to her...it's "pressure". There were times where she didn't want to push herself and I happily helped as I described above. At one point, I was afraid that I would be pushing her all the way back to the car but when we got to a certain point, she said "stop pushing...I want to ride this section myself". At some points I would encourage her to take the smoother line through a rocky section and she said "I'd rather take the fun line (through the bumpy rocks)". Oh man...I love it!!! I asked her what her favorite part of the day was and she said "the whole day!".
What does this have to do with anything? Everything. As I drove home, the similarities to my marital "process" were making my head spin. Why don't I treat my W with the same kind of encouragement and patience? How fun would it have been for my D6 if I said "we are going to complete the whole trail, you will overcome your fears, and you will be enthusiastic about it or else I might love you less" The joy would be gone for both of us. That's what I'm experiencing with this process in the marriage. My EC is *my* problem...if I need to ML, then I need to approach my W...we don't need to be on a schedule. She doesn't need to be looking at the calendar and worrying that I'm going to be acting goofy on Thursday. There have been "due dates" where I'm not horny and happy with the EC...then my W forgets, goes to bed, etc...my EC goes away due to my disappointment in her not remebering. Disappointment comes from "expectation" exceeding "reality"...eliminate the expectation, then you eliminate the disappointment. Don't get me wrong...I'm not giving up, I (secretly) think things might get much better now in terms of quality.
Just like my D6, I should "walk down the trail, not watch, and be excited when she comes along, but always be available to help, listen and comfort her". My W *knows* what I want...I've been beating her over the head for the past 6 months. She's proven that she's committed. She's proven that she loves me. She's proven that she can be extremely sexually aroused. Thursday night was a big contributer to my feelings because it represented a "perfect engagement of passion". This is what I want...not coerced sex 2x a week with a subservient wife.
When I told her this, she said..."Oh, I appreciate that so much. If your EC is low or our you want to ML, then talk to me and we can make some time together. Even though I don't think about it during the day I really enjoy being with you...so tell me." Wow...she said it before I could.
Will my EC drop to a point where I can't be "happy"? Will my attraction to her last more than a week without ML? Well, it's my problem...what if I were single? As for PM...this is exactly the thing to do right now. I'm using the relationship to grow myself. Granted, the ability to assert onself was a "growth" item that I'm glad I've learned. I've got it. Now I need to learn to deal with my own feelings better. The 2x week schedule doesn't address *my* issues at all while ad-hoc, (potentially) less frequent sex, definitely does!
Don't go getting the wrong idea. There's a huge difference between this new approach now versus doing it 3 months ago. We've said all that needs to be said. I feel comfortable in my communication / confrontational skills along with a handful of very important PM concepts. I didn't guarantee that there would less talks nor did I say I would be fine with longer dry spells I think this approach will detach me from my W's issues even more and inadvertently turn up the heat in some of her crucibles like it will be doing in mine. It's just time to start living again and connecting more naturally. My heart says this is the right thing to do right now.
-Dave (falling asleep at the keys and will try to elaborate on this more later)
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
