Let me concur with AtlDave. There's a lot to be learned here, but everything should be weighed in the balance of what's right for you, your H, and your own personal sitch.
Don't give up the ship. Hang around a while. Read. Post. Don't take anything as gospel - nothing works for everybody. If there was a sure-fire magic bullet, somebody here would have written a book about it and retired with mountains of wealth. But having said that, there are people here who have had success that I haven't even dared to imagine in my own R. So don't let one or two replies put you off. Hang in there - you CAN learn something here.
I should be travelling to Finland a few times over the next several months. If you like, I can get the books for you and bring them (to Helsinki and possibly Tampere) if you have trouble getting them. Just send me a message at meattpuppett@yahoo.com and I can arrange whatever will work for you (i.e. drop them somewhere for you to pick up, leave them in a tree, etc....). If I can help you in this situation I definitely will (it really stinks)! Don't worry about cost, if it will help get you out of this hell, I'll do it for free.
BTW, There are some pretty huge differences between American and Finnish cultures. Unless we are both drunk, then you can only tell us apart by our accents. :-)
Wow, thanks to all of you!! I don't know what to say, you've made me feel great.
Re: the books. I did bring up today that I needed to get a couple of books, asked H if he needed anything...he was a little surprised, asked when I needed them (guess he was thinking that my Dad is coming this fall, this is more info than I want to share with him!!)
So, I may just go ahead and order them. Thanks so much to all of you who offered to help!!
Meatpuppet, wow, thanks, I may take you up on that unless we put an order in soon. Hehe, you're so right about being drunk - the great equalizer.
Quote: I am intrigued and bothered by the fact that your H is not even willing to give you a simple hug. However, I've been criticized in the past for "asking" for hugs (both my W and members here on the board have criticized me).
Point taken. I think that may be the case here as well. I don't think H would push me away if I just gave him a hug (I have done that occasionally in the past) but he won't respond either. If life in general has been going well, he'll initiate hugs occasionally, which are friendly.
Chris,
Thanks for your suggestion. I suspect my turning off the TV would be met with standoffishness...hmm, lost my train of thought, as I was typing, I saw a hedgehog walking along the patio next to our house, so we got D8 up to see it.
Back to where was I...standoffishness...yes. I think that I should probably keep up the 'small talk' for a while before I try that. H would definately feel 'cornered' and back off. Think I'll keep things 'happy' for a while longer.
Last nigh, H fell asleep on the couch with his head on my shoulder while we were watching TV. When we moved in here, H insisted on getting seperate chairs for sitting in front of the TV, but we moved things around for the party last week, and the couch is still in front of the TV (hmm, maybe he enjoys this???).
But then, when the show was over, he jumped up and ran to bed (with book and candy). He was rather grumpy today, did come out and play a game with all of us, but back to his picking at the kids (and me) for any little thing that didn't go his way.
He had calmed down later, we all went to sauna, though as usual H came down much later, and kept to himself.
We are able to talk about general things,especially right now since H is on vacation, it's summer, I'm home all the time, so there's a lot less tension (and more sun!!), but if I ask a question H doesn't feel like answering, I get silence. It doesn't always go completely unanswered, sometimes I'll get an answer in a day, week...but usually if it's something really important to me, I have to ask several times.
Thought I’d update a little...still waiting on the books, should be able to start reading next week, but you all have been so busy posting that I've had a lot to read, and you’ve all got me thinking.
The past few weeks I’ve gone out of my way to be pleasant, trying to initiate hugs, even kisses, and he’s becoming more receptive. This afternoon he actually allowed me to kiss him, on the lips, something that I don’t remember when it last happened. I think I mentioned somewhere that we moved the living room around a few weeks ago for a party we had, and moved the couch in front of the TV (where there had been two chairs), H seems to be happy with this arrangement, and agreed we shouldn’t move it back. (our evening routine includes sitting in front of the TV for an hour or so before bed, I see it almost as his ’sex’, since it seems very important to him, and he gets very grumpy when I beg out to get to bed ’early’)
I haven’t had any ’conversations’ yet, decided to wait for the books for that. I’ll admit, I’m chicken. In the past my attempts to bring the subject up have either been laughed off, or ignored, when I’ve told him I’m unhappy, he gets defensive and extremely grumpy, yelling at anyone who crosses his path.
I notice that it’s easy for me to come up with things I need to work on: Loose weight, become more organized with house, and in general, find someway to gain at least a little financial ’independance’, and that these are things I would do for myself, but it’s harder for me to list what I want from him.
It’s encouraging to me to hear that a lot of the HDS here find that their EC dwindles after going without sex for a while. Makes me think that maybe mine would get better as things get warmer, ’cause right now, it is an effort for me to be pleasant and affectionate, or even to receive the pleasantries he’s starting to throw my way.
I mentioned about the cultural aspect. A few years ago, I did go through an identity crisis, trying to figure out why I had stayed here, where I fit in, what I wanted my identity to be. It’s hard to explain to someone who hasn’t lived outside their birth culture, but there are numerous little differences that one has to deal with each day, living in a different culture and speaking a different language. You don’t realize all the things that influence you as a child, and how much you share with the people around you untill the people around you have had a completely different childhood. On one hand, it gives you a strong core sense of self, but it can also make you lonely at times. During my crisis, I felt as though I was loosing my identity, and really wanted to avoid most things (including H) having to do with my adopted country.
I’m not sure if I ever really ’got over’ the crisis, I notice now I’m more comfortable speaking Finnish, and acting ’Finnish’ as long as I keep my connections to the US strong. Spending last summer there with the kids helped a lot. I had to really push for that trip, and it would help me a lot if H really understood how important it is to me to keep up the connection with the States, and my family. He doesn’t discourage it, but doesn’t make it easy either.
I wonder too, how much raising our children bilingually/biculturally helps to errode things. I don’t think it would hurt at all if the R was ok to begin with, but when things are not going well, it’s one more thing that hurts. Meaning, I find at times I get resentful when the kids seem very ’Finnish’, and I know my husband does the same when they act ’American’. H and I can use language with the kids to exclude the other (ie, H will speak Finnish to ask the kids something he knows I will hear, but doesn’t want me to comment on)
Housework is a major issue in our household as well. With 4 kids and H and I with full time jobs, it can be chaos around here. I know it bothers H more than me, and I try to keep up, but it bothers me that his main contribution is to point out what needs to be done. He does have his own office which he takes care of, but otherwise, he’ll leave his stuff wherever. I thought, like GEL that this was a comment on my own housekeeping skills, but my attempts at keeping things in order haven’t brought on changes from him yet.
I guess what gets me most is that in a lot of ways he’s seperated himself from the family. Instead of ’dealing’ with the chaos that can be morning with our bunch, he sleeps in EVERY weekend or day off, coming down to breakfast (which I make) after the kids are done, then turns on the radio and reads the paper. After which he usually goes to the computer room or off somewhere else to do ’stuff’. Then he complains to me that the kids don’t come into the bedroom to wake him up, or call to him like they do me.
Before the last few weeks, his main interaction with the kids would be just before bedtime to get them to clean their rooms, which would always end in major screaming. To the point that I would intervene. Then if I would raise my voice to the kids (nowhere near as loud), he would get upset with me, asking me what gave me the right to get mad at them, when I got mad at him for yelling. I explained that first, I had spent time with them all day, and second, when I do loose my temper, I explain afterwards that I had gotten mad, but it doesn’t mean I don’t love them, etc. etc.
I will say that he’s been much better on that count in the past few weeks. My fear though, is that right now, it’s easy. It’s summer, we’re both on vacation, and I’m being pleasant and not making demands. I’m afraid what will happen when we both go back to work, it starts getting dark (H has SAD), and I start ’turning up the heat’. I’m hoping that if we can get the intimacy working, he’ll relax...
This is already too long and rambling, so I’ll stop for now.
H has been friendly, making a point of thanking me for doing something for him, not turning away when I kiss him on the lips, saying goodbye to me when he goes out.
Last night he was reading in our bed while I got the kids to sleep, I went in and asked him if he wanted to do something. He said he had some stuff to do for the festival next week, and then asked if I wanted to watch something with him.
I asked, wouldn't you like to do 'something else'? (and as I said it, I realized it had been our euphamism way back when...at the time I thought it was cute, but maybe it was a warning sign that H didn't want to say sex or ML??)
H laughted and said let's go watch something. This little laugh has shown up a few times, it's a bit nervous, and gives me the impression that he knows I want something, but isn't comfortable with it. It was sweet, in a way, he didn't ignore me, he showed a little of how he feels.
We had a nasty thunderstorm this evening, and our server went off line for a while. H went out, when he came back he mentioned that everything should be ok if I just rebooted, I said I had, and that I had had to replace the batteries in the mouse.
H got very concerned, and asked 'where did you get the batteries?' me: 'In the hall closet, where you keep them' H: ' I hope you knew what you were doing' me: 'yes, I do think I know how to change batteries'
He went up to check the closet where I had gotten the batteries, and I felt my stomach tighten. Later on, I was doing a translation, and found I couldn't save it - H is sitting in the next room on his computer, so I asked him what to do. He answered back, in a loud, 'aggresive' voice that he had had the same problem, and I just had to figure out what to do.
When I asked if he could share what he had done, he answered back (in the same tone) that he was busy and didn't want to do this across the room. I walked the three steps to where he was and asked him again, calmly, he shouted that he didn't have time for that right now, if I wanted help, I could ask him to come there in a minute. Again, I felt my stomach tighten, and figured a way out myself.
I'm not sure how I feel. I've been proud of myself in the way I've been pleasant, kissing and hugging H even though he has pushed them away in the past, yet I still let myself feel belittled when he gets in a gruff mood. I really wonder if I have the guts to keep this thing going when it starts getting hard...
First, let me say that I have never lived outside of my birth country (USA) and have never wanted to. I don't have any idea of how cultural differences affect a R. That being said, the basic elements in any R are the same... two people (man & woman, woman & woman, man & man). You and your H relate to each other as man and woman, so you have the same situation as most of us. Cultural differences should not be a HUGE obstacle to overcome in your R. Sure, the Finnish vs. American issues will be large when it comes to your children, and perhaps with social situations, but hopefully you and your H do not maintain that "national identity" while talking about your R and M and ML. Unless Finnish men do something extra hot while ML, you're just like the rest of us.
Quote: Last night he was reading in our bed while I got the kids to sleep, I went in and asked him if he wanted to do something. He said he had some stuff to do for the festival next week, and then asked if I wanted to watch something with him.
I asked, wouldn't you like to do 'something else'? (and as I said it, I realized it had been our euphamism way back when...at the time I thought it was cute, but maybe it was a warning sign that H didn't want to say sex or ML??)
Ahhh, letting H decide if it's the right time to ML. Is that a good thing? How about you be direct next time and skip the "hints" and such? Say, "honey I want to ML" and just move closer to him and see his reaction. If he is standoffish, tell him that those other things can wait. It DOES work.
Quote: He went up to check the closet where I had gotten the batteries, and I felt my stomach tighten
Stomach tighten? Why? Did you "expect" him to yell or something?
As hairdog wrote... what DOES he keep in that closet? Is it "his" closet or a shared one? He got really defensive and sensitive after you mentioned the closet. If he's like most men, he has stuff that he doesn't want you to see, either because he'd be embarrassed or he'd have lots of explaining to do. Good luck keeping your cool with THAT one.
First, thanks Chris, for the wake up call, you're right, of course, about us being male + female, and I shouldn't give him the choice...but going from 0 to 100 is pretty daunting still.
Actually, just bringing it up at all is a lot for me, and I think I needed to do it that way first, for me. I don't know if it's true or not, but I have the suspicion that if I just 'threw myself at him', he would get standoffish, or push me away, and I couldn't handle that right now. So I guess giving him the idea first is sort of a 'warm up' for me. We've been so distant for so long that I need to let myself get over some of the 'crap' that I've been thinking about him.
Nothing in the closet. I know what's in there, just cleaning stuff, toilet paper, etc. He likes to keep everything in order, and is afraid I'll mess up his order. Stomach tightens 'cause I expect him to yell.
Usual scene when I get home from work, if he meets me at the door, it's with 'I have a couple of things I want to say...let me know when it's a good time' and then procedes to tell me the messes he's found around the house that either the kids have made or I've left...
It used to be that he would just start in, and wonder why I got mad, I finally got him to understand that he should at least give me a minute or two when I walked in the door...I've tried to explain that if he kissed me and said somthing nice first I might not get so defensive, but he doesn't seem to understand that yet. Nor does he seem to understand that with 4 kids and a job, it would make things a lot easier on both of us if he just cleaned it himself sometimes...(I'm not a great housekeeper, but I'm not that bad either).
So yeah, I get a tight stomach when he's in 'that' mood. It did blow over quickly last night, but as I said, we're both in a good place right now.
