I have spent yet another sleepless night in turmoil which is bad news because I have been so successful at self soothing recently. I got to thinking that in our severe cases PM methods will make matters worse not better. Perhaps Tim and Atl can put me right on this. In an ideal world we would all be married to someone who loves us exactly as we love them - we would have a "reflected sense of self". In reality we are all working towards the goal of a reflected sense of self. We want our partner to desire us as much as we desire them. On the other side of the coin our LD partners want a reflected sense of there selves too. They want us to be independent, un-needy, celibate and contented with that just as they are. Schnarch suggests that we remain close to our partner while maintaining a strong sense of self. We make disclosures of what we want from our R then hold on to ourselves through the rejection using self soothing and self validation. Eventually the message will get through. Other techniques such as hugging until relaxed and eyes open sex increase the intimacy and quality of the R. Although I think this method would work well in a non sex-starved relationship that has just lost it's sparkle, I believe it (or my application of it) is failing me because it is giving my W more of a reflected sense of self. I have reduced my loving behaviour at great emotional cost to myself and have self-soothed through it. She is being "pestered" less which is what she wants. I am making disclosures ("pressure") that I want us to develop a passionate marriage in which we participate equally but this works against her reflected sense of self and makes her feel uncomfortable so must be eliminated. As an optimistic HD my hope is that my disclosures will eventually be seen by her as quite reasonable and she will stop feeling pressured and break through her gridlock. As an LD with a very strong personality she is getting used to my disclosures and is gaining in strength to a point where she can cope with the pressure quite easily and dismiss my disclosures as immature and rediculous. I then roll over and self-soothe leaving her untouched. Eventually I will run out of ways to disclose the same old stuff and give up my quest for passion. She will have what she wants, celibacy and a reflected sense of self. And I never even got to the "The Hug" let alone the eyes open sex. SD - Tell me I'm wrong Tim, Atl, hairdog, honeypot and anyone else who knows me.
I'm sorry you are feeling this way, but hold onto yourself again, I'm going to give you some tough love.....
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In an ideal world we would all be married to someone who loves us exactly as we love them - we would have a "reflected sense of self". In reality we are all working towards the goal of a reflected sense of self.
I think you might be confused. One who gets his validation from what the partner does or tells him relies on a reflected sense of self. This is at the heart of being "other-validated" and completely contrary to the concepts of differentiation. You must strive to find your own sense of self without anyone and the ability to hold onto your sense of self in the presence of others. regardless of the strength of their personalities.
Secondly, it doesn't matter at all if their love is not equal to ours, nor do I think it matters. All that matters is how *you* love and what you need to feel connected to your W. If you feel that your love and connection is already strong, then why do you want to ML more? Is it to feel validated or to reduce anxiety? If so, then you are wanting sex for the wrong reasons. Once I did this, I discovered that I want much less sex than I thought and I was able to really feel the connection when we ML.
Also, "love" is not definable nor measurable. It's simply a feeling that you feel FOR someone AND something that you feel FROM someone and thus percieve it as "inbound love". Give someone a few beers at strip club, and they will feel "loved" too - by a woman who loathes them. Loving is real. Feeling loved is perception. In your case, your W's effort to ML is equivalent to someone else's beers at a stript club. (sorry for the strip club reference...I personally can't stand those places). Why do you need to feel loved? Explore this and you will enter your own crucible...because eliminating both "validation" and "soothing" will show you that you really don't need to feel loved to stand on your own emotional legs.
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We want our partner to desire us as much as we desire them.
That statement just stinks of "fusion fantasy". Just like love, it absolutely doesn't need to be equal at all...all that matters is that her behavior instills the sense that you are desired and only you know what that is. You just have to tell her. Also, wanting to "be desired" is wrong because it comes from my naughty "other-validation gremlin". All that matters is that your partner bring themself to you in a way that makes you desire *them* and don't look for meaning in the way they do it. If you don't like how they do it, then tell them. My example was when I was losing my erection while my W was doing me. It wasn't because she didn't desire me...hell, she might have been, in her mind, desiring the hell out of me. I simply didn't like the way she appeared (unenthusiastic) to me and I had no business trying to figure out if her crappy LM was out of a lack of desire or general tiredness. Last night, I told her that she needs to appear enthusiastic and try to be more organic. Again, this is *me* disclosing to her what *I* need to feel connected. I need to ML about 2x a week with the appearence of enthusiasm and erotisicm to feel connected. 2x / week is meaningless unless the "enthusiasm" is there.
Note that some of what I'm saying in this post is a little different than what I've been preaching in terms of "wants". I finally figured out that you don't just say what you want...you also share what you feel like when you aren't getting what you want.
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Eventually the message will get through.
Make sure you are giving the right message....
Wanting to feel "desired" is an "other-validated" / "reflected-sense of self" concept and should not be disclosed.
Wanting an "enthusiastic sex partner" is very differentiated and should be disclosed.
See the difference?
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I have reduced my loving behaviour at great emotional cost to myself and have self-soothed through it. She is being "pestered" less which is what she wants.
Why reduce it? If you feel like giving her loving behavior, then do it. Self-soothing was never intended to be a way to assist you in manipulating your spouse.
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I am making disclosures ("pressure") that I want us to develop a passionate marriage in which we participate equally but this works against her reflected sense of self and makes her feel uncomfortable so must be eliminated.
Those dreadful words again..."we" , "us" and "equal".....eeeeek! You will only make progress when you eliminate those from your vocabulary. What the hell is a "passionate marriage"? Even the term "marriage" has been dreadfully bastardized to symbolize some etherial third-person shared between two people. THERE IS NO ENTITY IN THE MIDDLE. There is just YOU and HER. You only share history, children and some possessions. Do you want to know what marriage really is besides the legal paper? It's just you, the way you feel about her, the way you percieve her commitment to you through certain behaviours. Instead of saying "I want a passionate marriage", how about saying "I feel commited to you based upon our history, children and shared stuff, but I don't feel passion towards you. I would really love to feel a sense of passion towards you and it will require you to do x,y,z...what do you need from me to do that?" Now *that* is what Schnarch meant by fearless disclosure of yourself.
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As an LD with a very strong personality she is getting used to my disclosures and is gaining in strength to a point where she can cope with the pressure quite easily and dismiss my disclosures as immature and rediculous.
If these were truly "disclosures", then she wouldn't have anything to gain strength or resist. It sounds like you are making "requests". Secondly, if she is belittling you for *who you are*, then you will need to again, disclose by saying "I really loathe you when you belittle the way I think and feel...I'm telling you who I am. What are you thinking? Do you think you have better insight into my mind than me". How can she respond? She can't.
Recently, my W tried to shoot me down and it was so easy to counter...I just said "I'm not saying I want you to do anything...I'm just telling you what I want". I repeated it about 5 times until she heard me.
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Eventually I will run out of ways to disclose the same old stuff and give up my quest for passion.
If your disclosures are like the ones above, you never need to find new ways. Just keep repeating them. If she dismisses them, then she knows the consequences...you will not love, desire, or feel passioinate towards her. If she belittles, you will loathe. You aren't threatening anything. You are simply telling her who you are...just like Schnarch tells us to.
Last edited by AtlDave; 07/14/0406:41 AM.
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
Thanks for spending so much time answering my post Dave. On the subject of reflected sense of self and fusion. If my wife gave me the love and attention that I give her (ie. was an emotional reflection of myself) then OK I would be seriously fused but at least I would be happily loved up and not posting on the SSM forum at 5am. Last night when I was declaring my love for her and that I would like to feel relaxed and emotionally connected with her in bed she just told me to stop talking about sex all the time and that everything I say on the subject just makes her desire me less. This morning she said she did not sleep well and I said that I did not either. She asked me why so I said "The same as you probably. I was churning over relationship stuff in my mind". She said she doesn't think about that at all - she was just cold. So perhaps I should change tack and rather than declare my love for her I should focus on what I want such as 2x per week with enthusiasm and variety and if she is unwilling to go there, imply that I will eventually stop loving her and find someone else. I'll try it and see what happens. At least I'm not scared to say things that might upset her anymore. SD
SD, I think your confusion is around what differentiation is actually all about.
Quote: I have reduced my loving behaviour at great emotional cost to myself and have self-soothed through it. She is being "pestered" less which is what she wants. I am making disclosures ("pressure") that I want us to develop a passionate marriage in which we participate equally but this works against her reflected sense of self and makes her feel uncomfortable so must be eliminated.
The reality is, things WILL get worse before they get better. Change IS uncomfortable. If your W is "getting comfortable" with your disclosures to the point where she can "dismiss them as immature and ridiculous", then you need to turn UP the pressure, not eliminate it. It means she's not "getting the message", and perhaps your disclosures are weak, or phrased without any real conviction. The message you want her to get is that you are NOT going to live like this anymore, and that means either you BOTH have to change the way you relate to each other, or you can't promise how much longer you'll keep trying. You need to let her know that you will not be nagging her about it, but you will also not be accepting the status quo, either. She needs to feel off-balance, like she doesn't know what to expect from you any more. THEN, you need to go ahead and CHANGE something about yourself.
Quote: I then roll over and self-soothe leaving her untouched.
No. Wrong approach. That's letting her off the hook. You need to press the point, so she IS uncomfortable. SHE needs to spend a sleepless night or two, wondering what's happened to her nice, predictable husband. Then she might be motivated to change something. At the moment, she knows what will happen if she pushes a certain button. Make something different happen in response to that button. Or nothing at all. Disconnect all the buttons so she no longer feels like she can predict you.
But realize going in that things are going to get "very interesting" for a while. She will NOT be pleased. So what? Let her be un-pleased. That's not YOUR problem. As long as you are being true to yourSELF, you're doing what you should...
So perhaps I should change tack and rather than declare my love for her I should focus on what I want such as 2x per week with enthusiasm and variety
Excellent. That is the right way to do it. When you finally de-couple yourself from the responses she gives you, it feel likes you are floating.
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and if she is unwilling to go there, imply that I will eventually stop loving her and find someone else.
At this point in your progress, this will sound like manipulation. I expressed a similar idea to my W but I expressed it like it was a struggle that I was dealing with..."i want so badly to feel "connected" to you but it's just so hard when we aren't together". Just a thought. Learn to distinguigh the "connection" feeling from the other feelings you get when ML. You will see that your desired frequency is probably less than you thought. I really wanted it every day. But when I elimnated sex for "soothing" and sex for "validation", I realized that 2x week was what I needed to keep the "connection" at a healthy level (on average).
Anywhere is walking distance if you have the time
-Steven Wright
I have come to the conclusion that threatening to leave is a bad call at this point (although I fantasise about it constantly). I agree with you on frequency. Once a week would be OK for me but not quite enough. Once a week and a surprise midweek quicky would be lovely and this is what I will push for. In a couple of months my new infertility should facilitate this (I hope). SD
"I simply didn't like the way she appeared (unenthusiastic) to me and I had no business trying to figure out if her crappy LM was out of a lack of desire or general tiredness. Last night, I told her that she needs to appear enthusiastic and try to be more organic...... I need to ML about 2x a week with the appearence of enthusiasm and erotisicm to feel connected. 2x / week is meaningless unless the "enthusiasm" is there."
I'm certainly not going to knock you because you seem to have gotten results I'd love to have, but.... this stuff sounds nuts. It's not your business to figure out why your wife is unenthusiastic about LM with you? All you need from her is to "appear enthusiastic" (as opposed to actually having enthusiasm)? Now that you've told her this, won't you wonder if her enthusiasm is real or fake? Does it matter? When you write "2x / week is meaningless unless the "enthusiasm" is there", you imply that you don't care if she is having a good time or even wants to be there. Is that correct? Is that a legitimate PM message? Can you really feel connected with just the "appearance" of enthusiasm and eroticism? What do you mean by connected?
Don't mean to sound like a smartass (or a jackass!), I'm just trying to figure this PM thing out. I'm still slogging through the book, sporadically. I hope I'm misreading what you're saying. My wife has no interest in sex with me, and I'd love to know why. Foolish? If she suddenly started screwing me a couple times a week, and putting on pretty good show of it, it wouldn't be enough unless I thought the show was real. Misguided?
Hey Paul, I'm sure Dave will clarify this for you. What I'm still trying to figure out is how his wife is supposed to appear "organic." Is she using genetically-modified seeds? Is she using chemical fertilizers instead of spreading the bullsh*t around?
I recently addressed the "enthusiasm" issue with my H ( for us, it pertained more to displays of affection rather than sex). He doesn't have to feel what I feel, but when I initiate a hug or whatever, his response has to be one where I do not feel humiliated. He does not have to have the same desire at the same time, that is fusion, but he has to show me he is concerned about my feelings. You can usually tell when someone wants to give you a yank( not the good kind) or when there is true effort/concern involved. We seem to be getting past this issue and can have lighthearted convos about "real" hugs and such. J
