I'll bet that both their wives are just as miserable with their current situations as Choc and Cemar are. They know there is something wrong with their R's, but I'll bet they are just as in the dark about how to fix it as Choc and Cemar are.
1) and I -- like CeMar -- do feel a need in my emotional make-up for the affection of my wife. There is nothing wrong with that. My confusion is that I have not written that it is a problem to want affection from your wife.
2) Compromise was the response to GELs post. I haven't written about compromise and I don't even want to go down that road yet. I have enough ideas in the air as it is.
I thought two of CeMar's basic concepts were reasonable
Not to be nitpicky but those aren't concepts they are wants and YES they are reasonable wants and especially in a marriage. No one is arguing that point with him and yet he keeps going back to that argument.
Cobra stated it much clearer than I have and I think it is important enough to re-state:
Do you realize that your focus is on where you want your M to go, the objective, which is fine. But the posters here, including myself, then give suggestions on how to get there, IOW, the process. You then come back to say, yeah, but I want this objective. They say, here is a way to get there. You say, but I want this objective... and so on.
Our "concept" is that to get the objective/need of sex and desire from your wives, you need to do x,y, and z first. Again, as I stated before, there is no guarantee that if you do x,y, and z you will get exactly what you want but you will get your self-esteem and confidence back which is a nice side benefit, huh? HOWEVER I can guarantee if you do NOT do x,y, and z, you won't get it (sex and desire, that is)!
So now that's the pickle isn't it? To actually do some work with no guarantee of the end result on the marriage. Much easier and safer to throw the responsibility on your wives, isn't it?
Last edited by fearless; 03/29/0708:00 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
In my most LD days I was not really unhappy...I knew I was missing something but I felt I moved on to a new reality. Kind of like how you might grow out of finger painting, or playing in a sandbox, I accepted that my sexual days were history, and was basically okay with it ( except for occasional memory twinges).
Quote: ------------------------------------------------------ If by "problem" you mean that "it's a problem to desire to have regular sex and affection from your spouse, and to have your needs taken as seriously as you take theirs, without having to constantly remind them of them," then yes, I have a "problem."
This is precisely why I never want to go to WWME, PromiseKeepers or any of the rest of them: because it's always the man's fault. It is he who must adjust. ------------------------------------------------------
Poor, poor, men.
It is the relationship that must adjust.
You do have a problem. Your problem is YOUR relationship with your wife. She also has a problem with the relationship. She is flashing lights, using semaphore flags and morse code trying to get your attention. You WANT things from her, she WANTS things from you, but you both persist in either miss-signaling, or in insisting that the other is the one with the problem.
Until your wife is on board with agreed upon changes in the relationship, then the problem remains yours.
If there is a car that I want to buy, then it is MY problem to figure out how to buy it.
I am NOT saying that the only solution is to fix you, but you can bet your last dollar that you will be changed in the process if it is to be successful.
All the best, -NOPkins-
I will ferret out an affair at any opportunity.
-An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect. -An infidel will remain unreachable so long as their sense of entitlement exceeds their ability to reason.
Choc, Dear Gawd Choc, you are starting to sound more and more like Cemar. The "problem" isn't who's not getting what, the problem is more likely lack of communication and needy behavior torpedoing any gains you do make.
I can't speak for PromiseKeepers, but for WWME, you couldn't be more wrong. There is NOTHING in WWME that makes anything the man's responsibility that is not also the woman's responsibilitly. WWME is really nothing more than a seminar to teach you a technique for intimate communication. That's it. Each of the dozen or so sessions on the weekend, you attend a presentation given by the couples running the weekend that goes over an aspect of marriage. Then you are given a topic and asked to write each other a love letter on your feelings for that topic. You are given like 10 or 20 mintues to write the letter. Then you are sent to your room where you read each other's letters and then pick one to discuss. In discussing them, the goal is to convey your feelings so that your spouse understands exactly what you are feeling. The stuff you write, and your discussions are only between the two of you, no one else sees or hears any of it. THERE IS NOTHING THERE THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO BE THE PERFECT HUSBAND AND NOT EXPECT ANYTHING FROM YOUR WIFE. Guys, it is just a way to get you talking to each other on a more intimate level. Yes, it feels a bit hokey at first, but it does work if you keep at it.
My point, and I've said this to you before, is that you are dismissing WWME without knowing squat about it. Give it a shot my friend. What have you got to lose? Heck, if you get there and it isn't your cup of tea, then you don't even have to stay (Karen, for example, bailed out when she gave it a shot). It won't even cost you anything unless you chose to donate (we did). If nothing else, it gets you and the lovely MrsChoc out of the house and away from the kids for 48 hours and gives you time and help focusing on each other.
I'm afraid we're talking past each other. My comment that "CeMar made two reasonable points/posts" had nothing to do with his responses to you. I only meant that his main thoughts were ones that I could not only relate to, but I thought they were reasonable.
I don't think we know enough to assume definitively this about the wives. Maybe they aren't happy with the marriages either but they don't know how to change the marriage and have just decided to live with it. Or maybe they are happy "enough" with the marriage or maybe they get their happiness somewhere else - job, motherhood, etc.
And even if they "seem" happy, that doesn't mean that they ARE.
Of course they MAY not be happy. But maybe they are happy. Some people would say that is "fake" happiness. That they cannot possibly be Really happy if they are part of that M equation. But maybe they really are happy. And if they are, then what? Are they in denial? Should we be correcting that denial? This kind of gets to my issue with Cobra's FOO push. If a person is in denial about their issues AND they also seem to be happy campers, why on earth would they want to change?
If a person is in denial about their issues AND they also seem to be happy campers, why on earth would they want to change? Here is the problem FMPOV
If a person (BB) doesn't deny their issues, but they don't see how they can changes, AND they also seem to be fairly happy campers, why on earth would they want to change? They (BB) will change if I am about to leave the R. but then, there is that worrysome air (my feelings of guilt) of blackmail.
