I'm sure it does. I work try and minimize this. Would a women that loves communication be happy in a relationship where the husband says, "I really just don't care much for talking. I know that is your need and I must do it, so any time you wish to talk, just ASK me and I will do it". Would we expect this women to be OK with this setup? If not, then why should men have to ask for sex everytime?
Would you give me the decency of a response to my question to you at the end of your locked thread? I asked:
Quote:
CeMar,
Before we go down that road, let’s be sure we understand what we are talking about. When I and others here say take back power, it does not mean something like “taking” a kiss. By that I do not mean cajoling, forcing, or manipulating someone to “take” some thing. It means not allowing the other person to cause you to become reactive and therefore dependent on their actions for your satisfaction.
If you go back and read all the recommendations made to you over the years, you will see one common theme. You ask how to create desire in your W, and you know very well that you cannot get into her head and flip a switch to turn on desire. So that means another method must be use, an indirect method. Are you with me so far?
Your wife will have certain things within her right now that she finds attractive, things that trigger desire in her, of one form or another. These are paths into her heart. Your task is to become attractive to her based on one of her currently existing paths. That path may not lead to the sex and desire you want, but as an indirect route, you can cause her to open new paths, that once were open, but which she has long ago closed.
Before she will open those doors, YOU need to be safe and attractive enough to her for her to open them. As one after another door opens, she will eventually get to the doors you want. If you keep focusing on HER and why she just doesn’t go and open the door right now, then you will continue to be stuck. She does not have to open anything if she does want to. That is the bottom line. As much as you might like to believe, she does not owe you any open doors.
So “taking” back power means two things to me: 1) becoming attractive to your W so that she might be willing to open some doors, thus taking you out of the position of simply having to beg her to open those doors, which is empowering to you, and 2) addressing her grievance against you so that she has nothing left to hold over your head and justify keeping those doors shut, which again is empowering to you.
Can you see what we mean by taking back power and can you work with this definition?
That was not a rhetorical post on my part. I would like to hear your acknowledgment or not.
Anyway... first I was answering Chrome's question regarding HIS wife's comment that she would give him a BJ or HJ in between intercourse "events." Chrome didn't state any issue with BJs and HJs other than worrying 1) it would prevent intercourse which is HIS stated Desire and 2) would appear to be a one way street in sexual contact. That is why I encouraged him to look at himself and see if he could open himself up to see that BJs and HJs can be mutually satisfying and to see that by opening the door to BJs and HJs it can lead to his ultimate desire.
As far as your comments about patronizing, I don't know. I know I appreciate when a guy TRIES to meet my needs even when it is forced, uncomfortable or doesn't come easy. It proves even more TO ME that they are willing to go out of their comfort zone and I find that attractive. On the other hand, I have observed patronizing behavior and it is obvious when a person says to their spouse with a sneer on their face "There, does that make you happy?" but a simple question of "is that better?" or "Is that what you want?" after a shaky uncomfortable try is not patronizing IN MY OPINION.
And to MrcCAC4s point, it would be patronizing to your spouse if she gives it a try, albeit forced, and you respond by saying "Nice try; maybe next time you could actually mean it." (That would not make ME want to try again.)
A little compassion and helpfulness for and from both partners could go a LONG way.
Last edited by fearless; 04/02/0704:31 PM.
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
Would a women that loves communication be happy in a relationship where the husband says, "I really just don't care much for talking. I know that is your need and I must do it, so any time you wish to talk, just ASK me and I will do it". Would we expect this women to be OK with this setup? If not, then why should men have to ask for sex everytime?
Either your black and white thinking (which I will accept as something you may not know you are doing) leads you to ask these kinds of questions, or you are purposefully and repeatedly messing with everyone on this board.
Your question presupposes that the H does not like to talk, just as you suppose your W does not like sex. If that is really, really true, then you need to D and move one, or just learn to accept your situation and make the best you can of it. If you want to change the M, then you will HAVE to change your supposition that your W does not like sex at all, and adopt the idea that she does not like sex with you. There is a world of difference. Can you adopt this different position and stick with it or not? If not, I will not waste anymore time responding to you.
I'd be happy to try my best to help.... no guarantees though. I'd also ask everyone one else to pitch in because the viewpoints of others often bring new ideas to me, and vice versa I hope.
BTW, I assume the work you have been doing with your counselor is pretty much all CBT based. Yet you keep sliding back into the pit. That is why I think FOO can be helpful (though not always).
How about this, just as an idea... do you think it would help to break out the major problems you have identified with your C? For instance, on MrsCAC’s thread I listed several categories of issues that keep couples stuck. I am including one more – biological issues:
FOO issues Communication issues Empathy and compassion issues Boundary Issues Self esteem and respect issues Biological/genetic/chemical issues Ignorance
Can you categorize your problems in this way (or something similar)? Part of the problem I had initially in recovery was making a distinction between these types of issues. Each required a different way of approaching the problem, a different self help book. Different approaches seemed contradictory at times. But they all interlock so they got jumbled up my head. Then if you throw in strong emotions, it can really get confusing.
It took me a long time to figure out that you can piece together a “map” of sorts, based on typical patterns of recovery. So once you can tell which type of issue you are working on, you can narrow down your work to those relevant approaches. That’s the idea anyway.
I can see clearly how my W having trust that I am strong person is essential to her willingness to be vulnerable and intimate with me. But I have never been good at hiding the pits. Even going to see a C is an issue. I hadn't been going for awhile, and she mentioned it in a way that she felt very positive about it (which is understandable). But I felt I needed to go a couple of times recently, and when I told her I was going, I could see the negative reaction it had on her. So I am still very much a work in progress.
I am really new to your situation but this paragraph was a HUGE warning flag to me. I think your wife may need some help with the definition of a strong person. (Not that it's your job to do this, I'm just saying...) I believe it takes a strong person to KNOW they need help. It's the weak feeling that keeps people from accepting or seeking help. SO in this aspect I think you need to stand strong that, although your wife may be uncomfortable with the it, counseling IS the STRONG thing for you to do. Seriously compared to many people I find your self awareness an asset.
I am also impressed with your willingness to talk about your pits. IMHO life is peaks and valleys. When I am in a valley, I don't get too worried or concerned. I keep working and know that I will end up back on the peak. The concern for you is to keep those valleys from becoming pits, right? For you, do you find yourself falling off a cliff and ending up in the pit overnight or is it a backsliding situation where you feel a negative emotion about yourself which feeds another which feeds another?
It just occurs to me about your wife's reactions - what actions, reactions, situations, etc. does your wife associate with your pits? For example: Are you not able to do certain things for her? Does she worry about you? Are you more demanding on her? etc. I ask because there may be ways to handle her real concerns while you are in your pits without sacrificing the work you need to do to get out of the pit.
Good Luck
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
I'll answer Fearless first and then get to Cobra's as that will take quite a bit more thought.
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I am really new to your situation ... SO in this aspect I think you need to stand strong that, although your wife may be uncomfortable with the it, counseling IS the STRONG thing for you to do. Seriously compared to many people I find your self awareness an asset.
Well, let me catch you up a bit, if you don't mind reading a summary rather than all the nit picky details I have posted over the last almost 2 years.
I did have a bit of a rough childhood. My father was extreme fundamentalist christian, but he had made a bunch of "mistakes" in the past and saw it as his duty to make sure I didn't have any opportunity to make the same ones. I was generally isolated from people other than my parents and 3 brothers. As it turns out he had a full-blown PA when I was young (probably as a result of the changes that occur when you have 4 young children running around). The arrangment that my parents made to deal with his infidelity were I'm sure the cause of his almost constant anger, and my mother's general emotional withdrawal. Basically though I had pretty much no normal adolescent experiences. I never learned anything about male-female relationships, never had a chance to learn from mistakes, etc. My C picked up on that in our first session and said that I am now going through the adolescence I never had. I have suffered from very low self-esteem for most of my life.
I never had girlfriends, and just went on the general assumption that I was unattractive and destined for a more voyeuristic life. So when I met my W, a very beautiful, intelligent person, I was amazed at my good fortune when we started dating. My first big mistake in our R was putting her on a pedestal far above me. I see now that I ignored all warning signs of her repressed sexuality (avoiding all the fooling around that young lovers do, lots of guilt/shame when she did give in, etc.) because I thought that this was my only chance to find someone to live with me the rest of my life. I also dreamed the faint hope that all of this would fix itself when we got married. I figured that her christian notion of no sex before marriage was what was holding her back.
After we got married, things did not change for the better, and our problems were compounded by my lack of experience (sexually and relationally) and low self-esteem. There was also a problem of size (I'm a big guy) which although could probably have easily been dealt with early on, neither of us had the skills to get past it. So when the sex dropped off the radar, I just feel back into my normal low self-esteem mode, thinking I didn't deserve a fulfilling SL, I just should be happy with what I have. Unfortunately, as we all no, the male body is not made to withstand such pressure, and so began a ridiculous amount of placating and supplicating behavior on my part to get sex, followed by extreme withdrawal. It was compounded by the fact that my W is also uncomfortable with non-sexual affection, so every time I saw other couples being affectionate, another truckload of resentment was piled on.
My W's main stated goal in life was to be a mother, but we had difficulties at first. That led to depression, which I often wonder is not still completely dealt with. She withdrew from almost all social interactions, as she couldn't handle the constant "when are you having kids?" questions that unintentionally insensitive people ask of women nearing their 30th birthday. I'll admit I did not handle the situation well, as I was unable to muster the strength to get beyond the constant "I hate my life" comments that streamed from my W on a regular basis (i.e. I was always asking myself, "what about me?"). Finally we had kids, and I had high hopes of everything turning around.
As having kids was not the real problem, it didn't end up being the solution, but in fact enhanced the problem. She was asexual during the pregnancy and for the year following while nursing. And my resentment and wall of withdrawal grew. I decided that more placating behavior was the solution, and agreed to have more kids. We decided to wait a little bit, in order to put some space between the kids. But then my W suddenly became very sexual one week. Life was suddenly as I dreamed it could be. Then her sexuality abruptly stopped, and a few weeks later we discovered she was pregnant again, and thus began the asexuality again in full force.
So about 2 years ago last summer, I was in a very resentful state and massively withdrawn from the M. But as I had never taken the time to find words or coherent thoughts as to what was going on, I was lost. I tried on many occaisions to find my voice and explain to my W my unhappiness, but I did not have the skills to deal with her responses (lots of deflections, crying). My W universally stated that she was happy with the way things were, and didn't see any reason to change things. I now doubt that she was/is happy, but she probably did feel some level on contentment with the fact that she now had kids, H had a steady job, and we had moved to a location near her parents from which she had never truly emotionally separated. I was also still convinced that I was a fundamentally unattractive person. No apparent interest from women, and no interest in me physically from my W was all the proof I needed.
I then made a series of poor choices and had an A (with some physical contact but not sex) that stopped and started a few times. My W and I are still dealing with the aftermath of that A as well as another aborted one that nearly began with a member of this board, on top of the other problems we have.
I am now at the point at which I have a good idea of what I need to do, I just still struggle with self-esteem issues (compounded by guilt over recent actions) and lack of confidence to push through the negative defensive reactions that permeate our R. I am seeing a C who specializes in self-esteem issues. I really think we need to get into MC, but my W is very hesitant. The few times my W has gone, she did seem to appreciate the experience, it just doesn't translate into a desire to go regularly. I also still do fight massive amounts of resentment, and I'm sure my W does too. She also hasn't been able to yet break through her avoidance behavior, as evidenced by her usual responses of "I don't know" or "I'm too tired to think about it" to most R questions. I do know how difficult that is to do, so I empathize with her.
But I have initiated plans to have regular "date nights", start going on more childless trips, and keep trying to communicate my desires and hopes for our R in as positive a way as possible. I will admit that I have felt near the breaking point a few times, but I have always found enough reserves of strength so that I have not yet ever said anything about D. I feel I do owe it to her and my children to try much harder and longer than I have so far. I do think that she and I could have a great R, but the path is still quite nebulous to me.
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I am also impressed with your willingness to talk about your pits.
Do you mean here or with my W? EVERY time I have talked with my W about pits, she withdraws. I now mostly just try to hide pits from her.
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The concern for you is to keep those valleys from becoming pits, right? For you, do you find yourself falling off a cliff and ending up in the pit overnight or is it a backsliding situation where you feel a negative emotion about yourself which feeds another which feeds another?
Yes. I expect valleys, it is when the valley becomes bottomless that things go sour for me. Both pit situations occur for me. Mostly though there are just little triggers here and there that remind me of past actions.
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It just occurs to me about your wife's reactions - what actions, reactions, situations, etc. does your wife associate with your pits? For example: Are you not able to do certain things for her? Does she worry about you? Are you more demanding on her? etc. I ask because there may be ways to handle her real concerns while you are in your pits without sacrificing the work you need to do to get out of the pit.
I actually anti-withdraw when I go into a pit. I become too needy, so I would go with option 3, I am more demanding. I have really shot myself in the foot with this, because now she associates requests for changes in the R with pits.
If you have suggestions or examples of handling her concerns without sacrificing the work to get out of a pit, please feel free to share.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Just wanted to offer a heartfelt "Pat on the Back". I admire your personal committment to continue the work your doing for yourself and your M. I dropped off the board about a year ago but have spent the past week or so lurking and trying to get caught up on everyones current situations.
Didn't want to hijack nor pollute your thread with any of my stuff at the moment (none to offer anyway), but I did want to speak up and hey.
"Wrinkles only go where the simles have been" J. Buffett
Wow, that is quite a childhood and relationship with your W.
I admire you being able to talk about your emotional pits with the Board. I think it was good to want to share those feelings with your wife. Her feeling that the opening up was about you needing something from her that was the problem (both of your problems).
Yes. I expect valleys, it is when the valley becomes bottomless that things go sour for me. Both pit situations occur for me. Mostly though there are just little triggers here and there that remind me of past actions.
So you have normal expectations of life which is good.
I actually anti-withdraw when I go into a pit. I become too needy, so I would go with option 3, I am more demanding. I have really shot myself in the foot with this, because now she associates requests for changes in the R with pits.
Did you ever read my response to you on my thread (titled Know-it-alls, validation, etc.)? The way you communicate with your wife could be a start with this issue also. You don't seem communicate, at least with the example I responded to, n a straightforward way. The women that I am friends with all agree that we don't mind emotional guys at all. What is a troublesome trait is when they seem afraid of their emotions.
So here are my next questions:
What traits do you like and appreciate most about yourself?
What traits about your wife to you most like?
And what about your marriage do you like RIGHT NOW as it is?
But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads? ~Albert Camus
