WHY should I have to be so friggin careful at home when I'm dealing with a man who supposedly loves me? Why can't he cut me some slack?
Why should he? Before you answer, remember your mantra, that I am sure your BF knows about you, that you believe you cannot force someone else to change.
That is the problem when the other person does what you ask. You have to then find new reasons for your anger. Eventually you will run out of reasons and have to confront yourself. This business about your W not being able to backup files the way you deem, and then providing you a reason to get upset with her because she doesn’t remember or understand the system, is just a smoke screen by you. This is a creation by you to set her up to fail, to give you an excuse to withdraw, to avoid intimacy. The new intimacy in your M means you should feel good about the changes in your wife. But you don’t feel good because the changes in you haven’t come about yet. So stop making her responsible for your shortcomings.
Cobra, wow.
This is brilliant, and explains something that's happening with me and my bf, too.
----------
ETA: All I'm asking is that he be kind about it. I don't mind being challenged or questioned. I don't want rudeness. It's always the manner of deliver that gets to me, not the content of the message.
I'm not trying to force him to change. All I asked HERE was why can't he be kind about it.
He even said yesterday that he could do what I was asking him to do, but he won't.
I think the key may be in his comment about not being a mind reader. When you say something using certain words and he takes you literally and it turns out you meant something different, it makes HIM feel stupid ("I'm not a mind reader!") and the reaction is defensiveness and anger.
Wow, I never thought of that. If that is the case, I'm sure he would deny it, probably because he'd be completely unaware that it's happening. It really makes no sense at all for him to be ANGRY. I asked him if he truly believed that I had been filling up his servers with my files, and he said no. (He "knows" I'm smarter than that.) So I said, "then why can't you recognize that maybe I said the wrong word and ask me again what I meant?" It seems impossible for him to let go of his first interpretation and consider anything else.
I have these sorts of convos with my mother all the time. She'll be talking about something and she'll say the wrong word and I know she said the wrong word. I'll quickly think about what she's talking about and say "did you mean X?" And she'll say yes. She'll do the same for me. Is that something that not everyone is able to do?
WHY should I have to be so friggin careful at home when I'm dealing with a man who supposedly loves me? Why can't he cut me some slack?
I understand. I tend to be a person who talks about what I'm thinking about. Stuff just comes out. I don't censor myself at all about what I say, unless I think it might hurt someone's feelings. But there are no feelings involved in me stating that I had backed up my file. I was just doing what I do. I've tried not to do it, but I can't seem to stop. I get myself in trouble with H periodically because of it. Sooner or later I'm bound to use the wrong word and kaboom.
Sooner or later I'm bound to use the wrong word and kaboom.
I hear ya loud and clear. That's my world, too.
And as I said to cobra, it's not that I mind being corrected or asked to clarify. I just don't see why there has to be a "kaboom!" I tell my bf all the time that he's killing a fly with a baseball bat. A simple comment would do the trick, but he comes at me with guns blazing over the simplest, smallest things.
ETA: All I'm asking is that he be kind about it. I don't mind being challenged or questioned. I don't want rudeness. It's always the manner of deliver that gets to me, not the content of the message.
I'm not trying to force him to change. All I asked HERE was why can't he be kind about it.
And I would be wealthy if I had a nickel for every time I have wished for this. It is ABSOLUTELY the manner in which it's delivered. This is a point that has never been understood by H.
And really, many times when he tries to get me to stop feeling badly about myself in some way, he uses this approach and it only makes me feel worse. It comes across as, "You're smart. Now cut the cr@p. It's getting annoying." Yeah, there's a compliment in there, but I feel like I've been smacked in the face with it.
It is ABSOLUTELY the manner in which it's delivered. This is a point that has never been understood by H.
If I do call this sort of thing to his attention, I'm aware that he "gets it" in a subtle sort of way, but he can't admit that he gets it. Instead of stopping right there and saying, "Oh, you know what-- yeah... I'm sorry, I misunderstood," which would END the discussion with warm fuzzies all around... he just denies that he used any "tone" with me at all. He'll restate what he said, changing the words, changing the tone, as though that was the way he said it the first time.
For the record, my father was EXACTLY the same way. He could not acknowledge being caught in this kind of error. He would deny he had said whatever it was, and quote himself, altering the language. One time this was happening while we were working with a tape recorder, and he accidentally taped himself sounding like a jerk. When he re-played it, he was soooo embarrassed, but his reaction was to bluff and bluster and make it sound like *I* was the one who committed the faux pas. But heck, I was only about 10 years old and barely said two words on the tape.
That’s really right out of Schnarch, though maybe not in so many words. What I am alluding to in your sitch is that I think the idea that “you cannot force someone else to change” is holding you back. I understand the value of this idea, I know you do, but does your BF?
You know he has to make his changes for himself, that you cannot force him to. Intellectually he knows this too, or at least he has learned it from you and his AA meetings. But that flies in the face of everything he has learned all his life. When his mother steps back from him, she does it because she is pissed at him for not obeying her wishes and it is her way of controlling him.
He has be trained to internalize this and feel guilty for it. He has also been trained to believe that this is really how his mother shows her love for him. He feels loved when his mother in all in his stuff, fussing over him, telling him what to do and how to do it. That is when he feels connected. As dysfunctional as it may be, that is what he is.
When you leave him to tackle his own issues, I am guessing that he feels you are withdrawing and punishing him. He internalizes it and feels guilty. But he does not get the other enmeshment from you that his mother gives him. So he feels the negative part but does not get the positive part (at least what he considers to be positive.) What works for a healthy person in an adult relationship, with healthy boundaries, does not seem to work for him. How can it? He is a traumatize 10 year old. He has not really had any training in how to transition those previous feelings into more healthy feelings. To tell him to act like an adult and be responsible may be more than he can face or wants to face.
That is why I have always had a hard time with the idea that “you cannot force someone else to change.” What if they really want you to force them because that is all they know? I see this along the same lines of a healthy, controlled level of jealousy. So I think the idea that “you cannot force someone else to change” should be a goal, not something put into practice all at once or too soon. A lot of other stuff needs to come into alignment before this idea can take hold. So not forcing someone else to change may feel like abandonment to them, KWIM?
hmm.. sounds like you two might be dealing with some passive agressive behavior. It's obvious you two see that, but do you have any ideas what/why your H's are bottling up and not expressing openly? Not trying to barge in on the discussion. It's just that H and I had major passive agressive back and forth between us. I'd call him on it and he'd deny it.. make me feel like I was nuts, because he was clearly being a jerk and turning it around on me. We've ferretted out the cause of his knee jerk reactions and passive responses. It hasn't stopped completely (we're dealing with an incident as I type), but at least it's thrown the responsibility for fixing it back on him and I'm not being jerked around emotionaly wondering "what the F did I do?" and "why can't I relax and be myself in my home?" He came in this afternoon, stressed and snipping. Took an hour to get him to admit that he's irritated at me (for nothing, honestly), and now he's cooling his heals in the bedroom relaxing and trying to "get over it". I'm chillin out being myself and not walking on eggshells. Thanks for letting me vent too
Perhaps you should have your H write down the steps, and possibly even flow chart it for you. Would that help?
Probably. If it was taped up above the computer so I could see it (and not have to remember where it is). It's a moot point regarding this issue, but it would help with other issues.
If so, then I wonder if you might be a visual learner, you know, the non-verbal learning disability (NVLD) stuff. If you don’t go through this process often, it will be hard to remember what you did last month.
That's a good question. I learn best through repetition. I was the go-to person for the app I used on my last job because I did it every day. When I was a student it helped a lot to rewrite my daily notes. I am absolutely a use-it-or-lose-it type. That app that I once knew cold--I now look at it and scratch my head.
I have told H this many times and asked him to be patient with me. But I fear his lack of patience sometimes and perhaps start off feeling defensive. Throw in his defensiveness and we're doing it again.
I do admit to being reluctant to look up something in a manual if I know that H knows the answer. The process of looking it up myself may not do anything in helping me remember in the next time, and it's just plain easier to ask H. I had no problems looking up/teaching myself at my old job. I had the time and I did it. I do get impatient reading directions, but I CAN do it. H and his dad can learn ANYTHING by reading about it, and I am so not that type of person.
Becoming PC literate is easy if you spend a lot of time on the PC. If not, it can be a foreign language, and that can be very difficult to learn if you don’t live in a foreign country.
Agreed. I don't have the time or inclination now to do anything more about it.
If joint finances are an issue, get your own checking account and reconcile yours and let him reconcile his. Better yet, just pay your bills online, cut out the paper checks (except for special situations), purchase daily needs by debit or credit card (assuming you maintain discipline to limit spending), pay down all balances each month (by online check) and don’t worry about reconciling anything. All transactions will be online via your online credit card or bank account. What’s there to reconcile?
Not a problem. We/I do most of what you've suggested. So, you're saying that I don't need to go through the Quicken stuff if I view my statement on-line? Don't you always need to reconcile your own records against the bank's? Am I missing something?
I know CAC4 came on this board with lots of complaints, but also plenty of issues, issues that he barely acknowledged, much less worked through. He then sort of fell of the board. This says to me that he did not want to be confronted with those things anymore and would rather just lurk a while.
I agree. I have tried to tell him that just because I've had my revelations and am working on my part of it, doesn't mean everything is magically fixed. He has a lot of FOO issues that need to be addressed. I believe that seeing a C would help him (it's definitely helping me), but H thinks it would be a waste of time.
This business about your W not being able to backup files the way you deem, and then providing you a reason to get upset with her because she doesn’t remember or understand the system, is just a smoke screen by you. This is a creation by you to set her up to fail, to give you an excuse to withdraw, to avoid intimacy.
Very intuitive, Cobra. This is what I couldn't step back and see. I've been taking these types of exchanges personally since the beginning and never saw that they weren't about me at all.
BTW, I see you two posting within 4 minutes of each other. Are you two waiting to take turns on that one PC to put forth your version of the story? Very passive aggressive of both of you. Better to sit down and talk it over.
We each have our own computer. I did try talking, for probably an hour and it didn't seem to be getting us anywhere. I told him I was going to start a thread on the board. I'm desperate to find a way to get him to open up. Besides, this BB is the next best thing to MC!
I said: No, on a conscious level I don't consider myself to be stupid, but it really tests my confidence to be married to someone who is so sure of himself intellectually. I doubt myself all the time.
Cobra said: I suspect that is just how CAC4 wants it. If you doubt yourself, you will never be in a position to doubt him. Then he stays safe, KWIM?
I can see this. And it comes from his FOO issues.
What H did as a kid was never acceptable to his father. He was constantly compared to his slightly older sister and never measured up. He was criticized constantly. His father thought majoring in music was a waste of time. The only thing that the father approved of was flying, and we know what happened with that. I asked H recently why he wanted to be a pilot and the first thing he said was "because people respect pilots."
My armchair analysis is that because of how H was treated by his father, he does not allow himself as an adult to admit making mistakes. It is a defense mechanism. He rarely admits to being wrong and he even more rarely says he's sorry. Whatever happens is usually the other person's fault. Often because they used the wrong words. Or they took what he said wrong.
he does not allow himself as an adult to admit making mistakes. It is a defense mechanism. He rarely admits to being wrong and he even more rarely says he's sorry. Whatever happens is usually the other person's fault. Often because they used the wrong words. Or they took what he said wrong.
