It's irritating because I think it's a cheeseless tunnel. I'm going to assume that she still finds me attractive and that she knows I could find love elsewhere if I chose, but that I'm committed to the relationship. If attractiveness is an issue to her, it's about me making myself attractive to her by "doing some soul searching" and making myself happier, and, also, doing all the things she wants/needs, and not expecting anything in return, not making demands of her, giving her space, etc. And, in that sense, I could be damned attractive and still end up hosed as far as getting my needs/wants met, or even getting her to take them seriously. And so, to me, talking about jealousy and Ms.Hdog is a lot like teaching a pig to sing. It's a waste of time and it annoys the pig.
The only new thought I had with regard to your sitch is that when you wake up in the middle of the night with the visual of Mrs. HD gritting her teeth why don't you get up and move to the couch. A few nights of that and she may ask "Why have you been moving to the couch?" The answer would be "Are you asking me to grit my teeth and sleep next to you just for the appearance of an intact marriage?"
Probably not productive but it just seems very difficult to have her see your side.
I wasn't really seriously suggesting that HD should set up some jealousy inducing situation just that I think that MsHD is in denial in certain ways that might be unmasked in a situation that invoked a jealous or competitive reaction. For instance, I think that if MsHD were to join this BB and simply "meet" all us HD women it might cause her to reflect a bit about some of her knee-jerk responses or defenses.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Hairdog, Wow this thread's grown! Everyone is pitching in trying to crack the nut that is MsHD.
Just wanted to put down a few thoughts for you on the subject of teeth-gritting sex. I'm afraid I've only skimmed read the last 4 or 5 pages here so sorry if I'm repeating anything.
Now you'll remember I said to ask her if she'd piss on you if you were on fire? This was semi-serious. Exactly what is she willing to do to keep this marriage intact?
OK now lets assume that she is willing to have teeth-gritting sex to keep the marriage intact. It won't work. It won't work for two reasons. Reason 1 is obvious and it is that you won't feel satisfied, you will feel demeaned by it you won't really want to go there, you will let her skip it a few times and before you know it you'll be back to no sex. Reason 2 is that after a few weeks or months of teeth-gritting sex she will get more resentful and she will start to look at the No Marriage option more favourably.
If she is willing to let you use her body for your pleasure then there is a different way for her to do that which doesn't involve gritting her teeth and doesn't have to involve her getting into it. She just has to use a different mind-set. Rather than thinking "OK lets get it over with". She has to think something like "my body is a gift that I would like to give to Hairdog". That's all really. It doesn't have to be stressful, it doesn't have to be tiring. It can be a bit like meditating. All she has to do is go with the flow, and keep saying to herself "my body is a gift I would like to give to Hairdog".
Do you think she can do that?
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I think that MsHD is in denial in certain ways that might be unmasked in a situation that invoked a jealous or competitive reaction
This is kind of what I was getting at. It's all very well for Mrs HD to say "take me as I am or move on," and she may very well know in a hypothetical sort of way that HD could find someone else, but if she really didn't give a sh!t, she wouldn't exhibit jealousy, she'd exhibit relief.
The point of all this is how to get Mrs. HD to come out of the shadows, ADMIT she cares about what happens to this marriage, and stop hiding behind the armor-plated brassiere of the Viking Warrior Maiden. Her "do whatever you have to do but leave me out of it" attitude is a mask, as cobra keeps pointing out.
THAT'S why I think the fact of her exhibiting jealousy is significant.
I think that if MsHD were to join this BB and simply "meet" all us HD women it might cause her to reflect a bit about some of her knee-jerk responses or defenses.
The very first thing that got me THINKING that I might be missing out on something was reading the posts of HD women on another board. They seemed to be really LIVING and enjoying themselves and it really piqued my interest. I wanted to be more like them.
I also agree with Lil that because MsHD exhibits jealousy she really does care deep down inside. She just has incredibly thick armor protecting herself.
Hiya, Fran! Yeah, sometimes a thread grows so fast it can make your head spin. Especially when it's your thread. My head is still trying to digest all of it. You asked: Do you think she can do that?Easy answer: No. More detailed answer: You said,If she is willing to let you use her body for your pleasure and I think that's really stretching the meaning of the word, "willing." She said she "might be able to[.]" And I am doubtful she could get to the "my body is a gift I'm giving to Hairdog" level.
Fran, she is not in a "giving" mood lately.
Even the "fill the gap" affection she was handing out last weekend has come to a screeching halt. She sees that I have stopped offering affection to her. I know some big piles of excrement are about ready to hit the fan.
Lets imagine for a minute that you were going to get a D. (Yes I know we dont want one.)
What actions would you start taking, to be more self sufficient, more in control of your own life? Probably right along the lines of what the Nops have been suggesting you take care of. Have you set a list with a timeline for yourself to get these items handled, regardless of the direction you go?
If you know the poo is going to spray, why wait for it to happen. May as well put on your rain gear and proactively, assertively point out the poo in her hand she is getting ready to throw.
I agree with you that invoking jealousy may be a cheeseless tunnel, though I don’t think it is completely cheeseless, but now may not be the right time to wage that battle. Jealousy may be better addressed after she has expressed some commitment to stay in the marriage. Right now she is threatening to leave the marriage, so jealousy isn’t going to help resolve that. Save it for later.
I'm going to assume that she still finds me attractive ….
I agree that you must make this assumption. In fact, challenging it will just piss her off. She told you she loves you, she is still in the M, so assuming otherwise will invalidate her and escalate the situation.
…and that she knows I could find love elsewhere if I chose, but that I'm committed to the relationship.
This topic of finding an outside relationship is just a deflection by both of you, IMO. You don’t really mean it and neither does she.
If attractiveness is an issue to her, it's about me making myself attractive to her by "doing some soul searching" and making myself happier, and, also, doing all the things she wants/needs, and not expecting anything in return, not making demands of her, giving her space, etc. And, in that sense, I could be damned attractive and still end up hosed as far as getting my needs/wants met, or even getting her to take them seriously.
I agree. This is the cheeseless tunnel you have been pursuing.
Even the "fill the gap" affection she was handing out last weekend has come to a screeching halt. She sees that I have stopped offering affection to her. I know some big piles of excrement are about ready to hit the fan.
Are you ready for what’s coming? The best defense is a good offense. What are you anticipating and what exactly are you going to do and say? Please don’t tell me anything that even remotely sounds like compromising.
I think you need to play this completely out in the open. She values her “honesty,” “self-awareness,” “lack of self deception,” etc., so I think you should lay her values out as the ground rules you will operate on, then tell her exactly how you feel. I’ve posted earlier (on this thread?) a rather specific outline on an “attack plan, as a general idea. I also think you should very specifically drop her FOO issues right in her lap and keep the focus there. That is what she is afraid of and why she does all that she does. It is the elephant in the room and where the battle will be waged. Not addressing this, as well as your emotions and fears, is just perpetuating the cheeseless tunnel. Time to strip away all the façade.
